Whatever

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]

HEAR! LAWYER ONLY LONDON DOCTORS CAN TREAT NAWAZ

 

[Indos]

 

[ghazi52]

Spectacular Pakistan - in Urdukas camp site (Trekking Baltoro, Pakistan)

 

[M. Sarmad]

..... I myself believe that the need to revisit the history (called Islamic history) in light of Quran is long overdue and it is now ever necessary for a united Ummah serving and leading the humanity, the only light in these ever growing dark ages is Quran, and for message of Quran to be understood properly and implemented all false religions pretending to be Islam have to go or come within the ambit of Quran and Quran only. And obviously the so called history of Islam revolves around mostly maligning and attributing false stories with Companions of Messenger Peace be upon him. Hence this little effort from me, for ones who can hold Quran above all and sundry without any excuses, justifications and counter arguments.

I couldn't agree more.

I would reiterate that I will only accept simple words of Quran proving these great personalities weak and wrong

Let me remind you my friend that you were asked to quote the exact Quranic verse(s) telling us that the companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) couldn't/won't fight/kill each other..... And you haven't been able to post any.

As for the Quranic verses that you quoted to support your POV, you have conveniently ignored the fact that those verses do not apply to ALL companions but only those who were truly obedient to Rasool Allah SAW.

And as you have stated that you will only accept words of Quran, here is what Allah has said to (some) "companions" in 47:38:

"..... if you turn away [from Him], He will cause other people to take your place, and they will not be the likes of you! "

and in 9:39:

If you do not go forth to war [in God's cause], He will chastise you with grievous chastisement, and will place another people in your stead - whereas you shall in no wise harm Him: for, God has the power to will anything.

So, the Holy Quran indeed does talk about the possibility of companions turning away from Allah's path.


Your statement "Companions fighting each others is lie, strictly in contradiction with Quran" is baseless.

And if you are still in doubt, read 49:9 :

"And if two parties or groups among the believers start fighting, then make peace between them both. But if one of them outrages against the other, then fight you against the one which outrages till it complies with the command of Allah."

Hope that helps clear your confusion.
Regards

 

[I.R.A]

I couldn't agree more.




Let me remind you my friend that you were asked to quote the exact Quranic verse(s) telling us that the companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) couldn't/won't fight/kill each other..... And you haven't been able to post any.

As for the Quranic verses that you quoted to support your POV, you have conveniently ignored the fact that those verses do not apply to ALL companions but only those who were truly obedient to Rasool Allah SAW.

And as you have stated that you will only accept words of Quran, here is what Allah has said to (some) "companions" in 47:38:

"..... if you turn away [from Him], He will cause other people to take your place, and they will not be the likes of you! "

and in 9:39:

If you do not go forth to war [in God's cause], He will chastise you with grievous chastisement, and will place another people in your stead - whereas you shall in no wise harm Him: for, God has the power to will anything.

So, the Holy Quran indeed does talk about the possibility of companions turning away from Allah's path.


Your statement "Companions fighting each others is lie, strictly in contradiction with Quran" is baseless.

And if you are still in doubt, read 49:9 :

"And if two parties or groups among the believers start fighting, then make peace between them both. But if one of them outrages against the other, then fight you against the one which outrages till it complies with the command of Allah."

Hope that helps clear your confusion.
Regards

Do you want me to post the verses where Messenger Peace be upon him, himself has been clearly warned? Does that count as proof of anything too? Based on your assumption, if these historians had directly attacked Messenger and written some bakwas I should have accepted that too?

49:9 has that "if" and Quran is forever, that if doesn't apply to companions only, it applies to Muslims of today too.

As for the Quranic verses that you quoted to support your POV, you have conveniently ignored the fact that those verses do not apply to ALL companions but only those who were truly obedient to Rasool Allah SAW.

Sarmad bai I did post verses that clearly prove that hypocrites were separately identified none other than by ALLAH HIMSELF. A non obedient person can be a hypocrite only but not a close companion. So if these historians made a list of non obedient companions (to prove Quran wrong) please do share ...... just remember that the companions from Makkah who migrated have already been mentioned clearly in a verse with promise of great rewards.

Let me remind you my friend that you were asked to quote the exact Quranic verse(s) telling us that the companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) couldn't/won't fight/kill each other..... And you haven't been able to post any.

Seriously Sarmad bai I didn't expect this from you ........... I would have understood, if it was some traditionalist but not you.



My understanding of Quran's verses is simple and I am not willing to accept the narratives and false accounts of people who distorted and created Islamic history out of thin air ........ just because it suited the newly converted persians' previous habits.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Do you want me to post the verses where Messenger Peace be upon him, himself has been clearly warned? Does that count as proof of anything too? Based on your assumption, if these historians had directly attacked Messenger and written some bakwas I should have accepted that too?

I am not trying to defend the Bakwas written by some of the so-called historians.. I have only pointed it out to you that your assertion that "Companions fighting each others is lie, strictly in contradiction with Quran" is baseless... That, however, does not automatically imply that all 'war accounts' (of wars between companions) as recorded by historians are true... You really don't have to try create a 'straw man', bro

49:9 has that "if" and Quran is forever, that if doesn't apply to companions only, it applies to Muslims of today too.

Yes, Quran is forever.. and 49:9 applies to all Muslims, including the companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), and this, along with other Quranic verses posted earlier, disproves your assertion regarding infallibility of companions.

Sarmad bai I did post verses that clearly prove that hypocrites were separately identified none other than by ALLAH HIMSELF. A non obedient person can be a hypocrite only but not a close companion. So if these historians made a list of non obedient companions (to prove Quran wrong) please do share ...... just remember that the companions from Makkah who migrated have already been mentioned clearly in a verse with promise of great rewards.

Only Allah knows who were those hypocrites. And it's mentioned nowhere in Qur'an that who could (or couldn't) be a hypocrite. You are assuming things here. The fact remains that there were hypocrites among companions and no one knew who they were/are, and this fact alone is enough to refute your argument regarding uprightness of ALL companions.

 

[I.R.A]

I am not trying to defend the Bakwas written by some of the so-called historians.. I have only pointed it out to you that your assertion that "Companions fighting each others is lie, strictly in contradiction with Quran" is baseless... That, however, does not automatically imply that all 'war accounts' (of wars between companions) as recorded by historians are true... You really don't have to try create a 'straw man', bro




Yes, Quran is forever.. and 49:9 applies to all Muslims, including the companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), and this, along with other Quranic verses posted earlier, disproves your assertion regarding infallibility of companions.




Only Allah knows who were those hypocrites. And it's mentioned nowhere in Qur'an that who could (or couldn't) be a hypocrite. You are assuming things here. The fact remains that there were hypocrites among companions and no one knew who they were/are, and this fact alone is enough to refute your argument regarding uprightness of ALL companions.

Sarmad bai we have only one verse in Quran (that you referred to) that is in general applicable to everyone. I quoted multiple verses from Quran proving and testifying the solid character of Companions of Messenger Peace be upon him, not only that but promise of rewards and heaven..... And you are assuming that I am creating a straw man.

Hypocrites were present during the times of Messenger Peace be upon him, Quran did reveal intentions of people gathering at Masjid Dirar مسجد الضرار. So your assumption that Messenger wasn't aware and somehow was outsmarted by his own companions is very poor in taste.

Bro you don't have any solid proof all you have is historians and an assumption based on a verse that is not specifically addressing a group of people ....... but you still want to believe that infighting happened right after Messenger took his last breath. Sarmad bai please people kill each other in the name of love for Messenger today, and your assumption is somehow trying to prove that people of today are better than Companions who fought, struggled and spent their wealth for Islam, in its most difficult phase(s).

 

[THE GREEN MAN]

Ramzan araha hai, maza ayega

 

[Zee-shaun]

I can't post in the Senior Club and it's annoying me.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Sarmad bai we have only one verse in Quran (that you referred to) that is in general applicable to everyone. I quoted multiple verses from Quran proving and testifying the solid character of Companions of Messenger Peace be upon him, not only that but promise of rewards and heaven..... And you are assuming that I am creating a straw man.

For a Muslim, even only one Qur'anic verse is enough to prove/disprove something, No? (There are more than one verses in Qur'an disproving your assertion regarding infallibility of the companions though)

No one is denying that the Companions of Messenger PBUH were great men.... But those verses you are quoting here are not about ALL companions ... (A companion by definition is/was someone who saw or met the prophet during his lifetime and was/were physically in his presence)... The Holy Qur'an does not name those companions who were (or weren't) rightly guided. We have to rely on (highly contradicting) secondary sources for that information. So, this debate is pointless.

And as for "Promise of Heaven and Rewards", again, those promises are general and not specific. In Al-Ahqaf verse 9, we read: Say: I am no new thing among the messengers (of Allah), nor know I what will be done with me or with you. I do but follow that which is inspired in me, and I am but a plain warner. The whole idea of "Jannat ki Basharat" for some specific people (or group of people) is in contradiction with the Holy Qur'an.

Hypocrites were present during the times of Messenger Peace be upon him, Quran did reveal intentions of people gathering at Masjid Dirar مسجد الضرار. So your assumption that Messenger wasn't aware and somehow was outsmarted by his own companions is very poor in taste.

I didn't say that ... Don't know why you are trying to put words into my mouth. Anyway, the Hikmat behind not revealing the identity of those hypocrites is not poor in taste. We, however, can agree to disagree on that.

Bro you don't have any solid proof all you have is historians and an assumption based on a verse that is not specifically addressing a group of people ....... but you still want to believe that infighting happened right after Messenger took his last breath. Sarmad bai please people kill each other in the name of love for Messenger today, and your assumption is somehow trying to prove that people of today are better than Companions who fought, struggled and spent their wealth for Islam, in its most difficult phase(s).

Bro, I didn't even quote any historian, what are you going on about? I have only pointed it out to you that your assertion that "Companions fighting each others is lie, strictly in contradiction with Quran" is baseless.

 

[I.R.A]

Bro, I didn't even quote any historian, what are you going on about? I have only pointed it out to you that your assertion that "Companions fighting each others is lie, strictly in contradiction with Quran" is baseless.

Baseless according to what and whom?

No one is denying that the Companions of Messenger PBUH were great men.... But those verses you are quoting here are not about ALL companions ... (A companion by definition is/was someone who saw or met the prophet during his lifetime and was/were physically in his presence)... The Holy Qur'an does not name those companions who were (or weren't) rightly guided. We have to rely on (highly contradicting) secondary sources for that information. So, this debate is pointless.

Do you agree that Abu Bakar, Usman and Omer were amongst the people who converted to Islam in Makkah and migrated to Madina?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Baseless according to what .... ?

According to the Holy Qur'an itself...

Do you agree that Abu Bakar, Usman and Omer were amongst the people who converted to Islam in Makkah and migrated to Madina?

The Holy Qur'an does not even mention any of them.
As stated earlier, we have to rely on (contradicting/controversial) secondary sources for that information. So, that debate is pointless

 

[I.R.A]

According to the Holy Qur'an itself...

Quran didn't say anything about indications of or them falling prey to infighting.

You assume that they fought each other, I say they couldn't have. Your assumption cannot be out of thin air? So what is the source of your assumption?

The Holy Qur'an does not even mention any of them.
As stated earlier, we have to rely on (contradicting/controversial) secondary sources for that information. So, that debate is pointless

But the Holy Quran does mention the ones who migrated to Madina and them being somewhat chosen and ranked higher. So if the history says that Abu Bakar, Usman and Omer were from those, and then history also starts with trying you tell that these same people were reason who laid foundations for infighting ......... then?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Quran didn't say anything about indications of or them falling prey to infighting.

You assume that they fought each other, I say they couldn't have. Your assumption cannot be out of thin air? So what is the source of your assumption?

The Holy Qur'an, in fact, does indicate that. Read previous posts, carefully.

And no, I didn't 'assume' anything... You are the one making baseless assumptions here... I only disproved your assertion by quoting clear Qur'anic verses.

But the Holy Quran does mention the ones who migrated to Madina and them being somewhat chosen and ranked higher. So if the history says that Abu Bakar, Usman and Omer were from those, and then history also starts with trying you tell that these same people were reason who laid foundations for infighting ......... then?

First you said you rejected 'history' and relied on the Qur'an only. And now when it has been shown to you that your assumptions and assertions are in contradiction with the Holy Qur'an, you want to discuss the same 'history'! Ironic, isn't it? ... Make up your mind, bro...