Dillinger
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I returned to defpk after 2-3 months, just yesterday..how goes life ZY?
Whatever
- Thread starter EagleEyes
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I returned to defpk after 2-3 months, just yesterday..how goes life ZY?
RAMPAGE
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hi zee zuu what's up ????
Chronos
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Haha omgshh. yeah same here, it's been a while, but nice to refresh old memories. Didn't realize how much fun we have all had here until i just saw a notification where someone like an old convo btwn u, me and hypey hahaahaha good times....
miss you dilli. I am well in classs -.- hbu?
Chronos
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Unhealthy diet, apathy towards exercise, and lack of a sporting culture.
Kompromat
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Rampiiii maybe its the "in-class boredom" getting to my head but I kindasorta misssssedddddd youuuuuuuuuu!!!! JK JK haha i actually did!hi zee zuu what's up ????
How are you? No seriously, missed your humor, it's so nice to talk to you all again haha
Dillinger
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Haha omgshh. yeah same here, it's been a while, but nice to refresh old memories. Didn't realize how much fun we have all had here until i just saw a notification where someone like an old convo btwn u, me and hypey hahaahaha good times....
EVER your humble servant empress, man do I miss you and Hype. Life is HECTIC..as in REALLY HECTIC. We shall catch up properly through mail soon, keep a weather eye out for a mail from me.
you're tripping, that's all.It seems for me at least the word returned is hyperlinked to an ad for some reason.
I miss you and Hypey very much as well! And hectic? Damnnnn working hard I see haha..... and of course you are free to hit me up anytime, but i feel you its been crazy busy for everyone. How are studies?
RAMPAGE
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My humor lolRampiiii maybe its the "in-class boredom" getting to my head but I kindasorta misssssedddddd youuuuuuuuuu!!!! JK JK haha i actually did!
How are you? No seriously, missed your humor, it's so nice to talk to you all again haha
I missed you too !!!
Chronos
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Nope, seems my google chrome browser has decided to hyperlink ads everywhere here.
what the hell.
Good to have you back
I miss you and Hypey very much as well! And hectic? Damnnnn working hard I see haha..... and of course you are free to hit me up anytime, but i feel you its been crazy busy for everyone. How are studies?
seen couple of posts, never knew you, so this post is going to come across as a stranger's interjection in a conversation with friends, But I tip my hat to ye.
A friend of @Dillinger is a friend o Mine
p(-)0ENiX
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It's true that PIE migrations in some areas like Western Europe were a linguistic, cultural, religious, et cetera conquest, & that is exactly what the Kurgan hypothesis states. There was a minor genetic impact too & that will not necessarily be represented by modern populations as evident by the presence of R1a in the Corded Ware culture. This conquest occurred due to migrations, assimilations, & perhaps military conquests as well. The proto-Greek speakers that arrived in Greece after the Pelasgians & Minoans are called the Mycenaeans. As per archaeological & cultural evidence they show lots of similarity to Seima Turbino culture as evident in their chariots & Bronze Age objects. Remember that proto-Greek is very similar to proto-Indo-Iranian & that both of these languages as per linguists split really late. So archaeological, linguistic, & cultural evidence links Mycenaeans to the PIE. Historical evidence already accounts that the Mycenaeans were invaders that subdued & dominated to indigenous population of Greece resulting in what's called the Hellenic civilization. Its language is Indo-European, as is the culture, religion, etc. The poetry of Homer actually reflects the Mycenaean society. I almost forgot to mention warfare, of which the most well know IE feature is the war chariot, & their warlike nature is acknowledged by many people too.
Getting back to the R1a haplogroup in Greece. These sources will provide you with information regarding R1a influence in Northern Greece & its presence in other regions of Greece too.
Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Exploring Y chromosome haplogroup frequencies in Greece
European Y-DNA haplogroups frequencies by country - Eupedia
R1a is present in many parts of Europe, but in varying amounts. Northern Greece's data is visible there too as is Macedonia's which too had the presence of IE people. In fact Macedonia was even seen as being foreign by some ancient Greeks, even after Alexander's conquests, some Greeks were desperate to rebel while the Diadochi were simply dying for power. Alexander of course was Macedonian, but his mother was from Epirus. Anyway, the presence of R1a in Greece is linked with Mycenaeans & appeared around the time an IE language began to be spoken there during the Bronze Age. The proto-Greek Mycenaeans (Indo-Europeans) are cousins to the Indo-Iranians from whom they split really late as per the Kurgan hypothesis. Since they were elites, possibly aristocrats too so they need not be the majority. The same is said about the Roman patrician class & for even the early Celtic warrior class. Mycenaean Greece society was in fact dominated by a number of elites but naturally there were common people present in multiple cities in small amounts as indicated by smaller presence of R1a. Furthermore, not all of the R1a in Greece would be ancient, some of it could be recent too as intermarriages take place.
Some sources even indicate that R1a mixture in some parts of the Indus is more recent than that in other regions of the Sub-Continent, indicating recent migrations from Central Asia to the Indus. This is also accounted for historically by the arrival of the Scythians.
Moving on to the Latins tribes. There were a small tribe that settled in & dominated the region of Latium hence the presence of Indo-European influences on Roman culture apart from their language, dieties, etc. When Rome was a city state, it fought many surrounding people for dominance of Italy some of the most famous of which are the Samnites. Most of Italy was actually Romanized, & the resulting Roman civilization was a mixture of different people just as the Greek civilization was. However, just like the Mycenaeans, the original Latins were Indo-European tribes as evident by archaeological, cultural, linguistic, & even genetic components symbolizing elite dominance. The Indo-European Latins tribe was by no means the majority in ancient Rome, but it's they who dominated in all other civilizational aspects. The Greek & Roman civilization all of study isn't the civilization inspired by J2 people or even Etruscans despite their influence on Romans. The civilization we study is primarily an Indo-European one regardless of the fact that it was significantly mixed & the IE people weren't a demographic majority. Greece & Rome wouldn't be themselves if there hadn't been IE domination & influence. So the need for a mass migration isn't necessary at all as per the Kurgan model. The Kurgan model simply classifies the Latins as Bronze Age Indo-European arrivals residing in sparsely populated areas but with significant interaction with other groups such as the Etruscans. Their migration route is most probably through the Balkans & that is of course originating from the region PIE tribes were well established during the Yamna culture. These Latins converted the indigenous to theri language & culture. Many elements from the Aryan Pantheon share similarities with the Greek Pantheon & the subsequent Roman Pantheon.
Roman civilization was also heavily influenced by the Greeks & the Hellenic people even had trading colonies in places like Sicily. The early Romans learnt heavily from the Hellenes before naturally making their own improvements. Military historians could even point out that ancient Roman warfare style that includes the phalanx formation was inspired by the Hellenes before evolving in to the legionnaire style.
Some of your points are similar to the Kurgan model & actually agree with it, but you tend to deviate in a few places. For instance, you seem to be accepting that IE languages were spread by cultural & linguistic influence, but the important to realize here is that this influence took place by contact with PIE tribes in Western & Southern Europe & elite dominance. The Indo-Iranian migrations is another aspect of the Kurgan hypothesis most people over here apart from a few tend to agree with. Ideas like dismissing the Kugran hypothesis by simply calling it a theory as was mentioned previously do not apply here. The reason for that is that most scientific ideas are classified as theories. It's no different from people calling evolution simply a theory, but then again some people even consider gravity a theory & we all know how strange that is. The Kurgan model is supported not only by linguistic evidence, but a huge variety of archaeological, cultural, & religious evidence too. In fact this model is the mainstream view of the spread of IE people & languages & it will continue to evolve with more developments. This model works pretty well in Europe too or it would have been rejected a long time back. Your views seem to be a bit mixed, but you don't appear to be a supporter of rival theories to the Kurgan model either & neither do most people.
Indo-European languages today are spoken all over the world, including Africa so many people obviously have no connection to the proto-Indo-European tribes of the Pontic-Caspian Steppes. Proto-Indo-European tribes, languages, & cultures such as Yamna first appeared in regions around the Black Sea, the same place where R1a originates. They may have extended to the northern regions of Anatolia which is part of the Middle East, but apart from that, it doesn't make them Middle Eastern. The Middle Eastern identity didn't exist back then, neither did a concept of Western, European, & African identity as it exists in modern times.
That's exactly what I have been saying, the majority of the people of Greece & Italy adopted Hellenic & Latin culture, but that was brought to them by Indo-European tribes that dominated them as elites in the form of Mycenaeans & Latins. This is evident from genetic & archaeological evidence too as per the Kurgan model. That is essentially why the original Greek & Latin speaking tribes are considered cousins to the Indo-Iranians & are widely assumed to belong to the haplogroups R1a with perhaps some R1b mixture as well seeing as the history of 2 is intimately tied together & there are strong indications of R1a & R1b interacting even during the Yamna period. It's also historically evident that both Latins & Mycenaeans were migrants. Greece & Italy were always mixed so the haplogroups wouldn't have changed but their frequencies definitely would. Elites are always fewer in number compared to the regular population as is their birth rate in contrast to local populace. Haplogroup R1a is present in both Greece & Italy, & is in minimal amounts in many parts of Western Europe too.
Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: Exploring Y chromosome haplogroup frequencies in Greece
European Y-DNA haplogroups frequencies by country - Eupedia
I never claimed R1a was dominant in Northern Greece either, except that it was present in greater amounts in that region comparitively. The oldest R1a lineages exist in there place of origin around the Black Sea & the current lineages of it in Greece exist after the migrations began in the Bronze Age with the spread of IE languages, the same goes for the Latins tribe of Italia. By the way, the Balkans have faced migrations for almost 5000 years from the Eurasian steppes, with it the introduction of new varieties of R1a & of course IE languages. Please note that both the Latins tribe arrived from the Balkans & the Mycenaeans too were one of those IE speaking invaders & their culture, & Bronze Age equipment signifies that too. As such many researchers & the Kurgan model postulate & have evidence of their R1a & possibly even R1b haplogroups with greater emphasis on R1a of course. Their elite dominance & of course the fact that they were a demographic minority is represented in these modern nations too.
We do know that the haplogroup R1a were proto-Indo-European speakers, there is way too much evidence to avoid doubting that, the Yamna culture being one of them & of course the Black Sea being the likely point of origin of R1a, but R1b would have undoubtedly interacted with them too. This hypothetically implies that some PIE influence may have been on R1b even before the Bronze Age expansion. Even researchers in their debates find it difficult to prove that PIE speakers weren't R1a since too many evidences exist to the contrary, one of which is of course the proto-Indo-Iranian people who were predominantly R1a alongside some other haplogroups perhaps. Sanskrit of course is among the oldest Indo-European language & it has been studied heavily alongside Greek & Latin to understand Proto-Indo-European society.
Evidence for the Yamna culture is present as are artifacts from that society.
Yamna culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tests on ancient bodies from that area & of course the resulting tribes show the presence of R1a & even some R1b. The current concept remains that the dominant haplogroup among PIEs was R1a but R1b would have been present too since they are both related anyway.
Another point that must be noted is the IE languages spread in the direction that PIE tribes migrated too during the Bronze Age. It wasn't only their languages that spread but their cultures & customs too including methods of burial, pottery, et cetera as evident in Brittania & Gaul. Furthermore, there was a shift in their societies as IE tribes spread about & the existence of R1a in ancient Germanic speakers has already been confirmed by the discovery of bodies from the Corded ware era signifying & giving strong evidence for many PIE tribes belonging to R1a alongside some R1b too. This also demonstrates demographic shifts that have occurred since then as R1a is no longer dominant among Germanic people in contrast to of course R1b. Let's also not forget that languages are intimately tied with civilization, imagine Arab civilization without the Arabic language. Would poetry have been popular in pre-Islamic Arabia if Arabic hadn't been a poetic language? Of course not, language has a significant influence on civilization & that's why people resist changes to their languages so vehemently.
That's correct, your father's paternal lineage isn't enough to determine all of your ancestry. It is also the reason I told you that the majority of Indo-Aryan settlements took place in the Indus & Afghanistan. Ethnic groups like Kashmiris, Baloch, northern Punjabis, et cetera are closer to the purer stock & hence closer other populations in Eastern Europe & in some cases the Middle East too. Of course, there has been ample migration, both in the past & recent times too, especially when Pakistan gained independence. Most South Asians, especially those in the souther portions of the Sub-Continent have little to do with Indo-Iranians & in many parts of the Sub-Continent Indo-Aryan languages were only spoken due to cultural & elite dominance. As mentioned in the previous posts, it was me that mentioned the importance of both maternal & paternal lineages when figuring out an individual's entire ancestry & of course that everyone should honor & respect all aspects of their heritage. In fact, I personally have little respect for those that are ashamed of themselves or those that neglect either their mother's or father's heritage. As for the Middle East, its link to Southern Europe as explained in my earlier post also exists due to the presence of haplogroup J2 & naturally most Semitic people are bound to be closer to each other. The haplogroup J2 is present in Anatolia for instance as is the haplogroup R1a, & regions like Asia Minor have had significant Greek populations residing there apart from the Iranian influence, & even Arab influence towards the South. Another point to note is that some J1 & J2 lineages would also have resulted from intermarriage during the period of the Caliphates. Other examples of intermarriage is Alexander the Great's marriage to Roxana who was a Bactrian princess & also Indo-Iranian.The Diadochi's successor kingdoms also had somewhat significant Greek populations living in their Kingdoms/Empires. Moving on, J2 individuals migrated from the Middle East to regions of both mainland Greece & Anatolia as evident by the haplogroups present in these regions. Please note that our discussion hasn't involved maternal lineages so far since the main subject of discussion is the PIE people & their languages, cultures, etc.
Haplogroup R1a originated somewhere around the Black Sea which could include the upper region on Anatolia which is part of Western Asia of course. Haplogroup G & J originated in the Middle East, of course I am talking about G2a, J2, & J1 (Western Asia). Haplogroup E1b1b is the proto-Afroasiatic marker & it represents one of the last few migrations from Africa with its place of origin being in the Horn of Africa or according to some it may have originated somewhere near North Africa.
Actually, there is a lot of evidence, & it's accepted by researchers of some of the most mainstream theories including the Kurgan model, which is extremely flexible & has been evolving with new research. Those who claim otherwise have offered no significant proof to backup their claims, & this holds true among discussions between different researchers primarily involved in genetics as well. What most people do is try to spread doubt, but some of that doubt originates from personal bias, & in some cases this bias also results from abnormal forms of nationalism. Some Indians for instance have even claimed that Indo-European languages originated from the Sub-Continent which is obviously absolute nonsense. Personal biases, inferiority complexes, the desire to claim everything or associate with others, et cetera are all feelings that needed to be avoided while studying any subject, not only among ordinary people but more so among geneticists & researchers who happen to make a living out of their research. The process involved in associating haplogroups with languages is extremely complex, & I did explain it before but I shall provide a brief explanation of a few points again. Languages are studied in some of their earlier forms to eliminate loan words & to also get a sense of the environment in which they were originally spoken in. Similarly, words contained in languages also give clues at to what kind of society spoke different languages, an example of those kinds could be one based on agriculture or perhaps a nomadic lifestyle. The spread of languages is studied by historians & archaeologists to figure out how a language was spread & geneticists do significant studies on the DNA of the people that spoke them. For instance, in the case of proto-Afroasiatic languages, their spread is noticeable as per the trands of migrations among E1b1b. My explanation did not include all of the complex details involved in the association of languages with haplogroups, but this should give readers a general idea. Proto-Semitic is claimed to have arose among J1 & some subclades of J1 are indeed noted for their involvement in their spread of Semitic languages. However, E1b1b was present in the Middle East when proto-Semitic arose. This indicates that E1b1b influenced J1 in to adopting the proto-Afroasiatic language which later evolved among them in to proto-Semitic. That is proven by genetic research that even though E1b1b is not as dominant as J1, but even lesser amounts of it were enough to influence J1 in to adopting the proto-Afroasiatic language. Similar things happenned with IE languages in some parts of Europe.
Also, researchers always indicate the dominant haplogroup among proto-(insert language here) speakers. They never claim things such as "R1a is the only haplogroup among proto-Indo-European speakers". What they say is that it was among the most dominant & there is evidence of some presence of R1b too alongside significant interaction with R1b. This shouldn't be surprising since both are related. No one was homogenous in terms of haplogroups, but their were some dominant haplogroups among proto-(insert language here) speakers. In any case, the idea that the only reason Greeks & Romans speak IE languages is due to cultural & linguistic diffusion is illogical. People simply do not change their cultures & languages without cause, neither are they ever able to do so without significant contact with the originators of those cultures or languages. For instance, back then a particular ethnic group wouldn't be able to adopt the Arabic language without interaction with actual Arabs. Another important is that proto-Indo-European wasn't spoken in Greece, what was spoken there is proto-Greek. This is important because if proto-Indo-European had been spoken there then one could argue that they simply adopted it from PIE tribes & it later evolved in to Greek. However, that is not the case since proto-Greek was brought to them as is from outside. If those outsiders had simply taught them proto-Greek & left then the proto-Greek language should have be spoken outside of Greece since its originators would have had to settle somewhere. History however records that the Mycenaeans were proto-Greek speakers & they invaded, conquered, & lived in Greece. The same was the case for the Latins tribe, except that they arrived by migration through the Balkans, & like the Mycenaeans were a minority in the regions they settled in.
Mycenaean Age
This map of R1a1a also shows it being in greater concentration in the northern regions of Greece, especially in the regions controlled by ancient Macedon.
File:R1a1a distribution.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It must be noted that what we actually consider Greek & Roman civilization is essentially one inspired by Indo-European migrants primarily ranging from culture, language, religion, etc. There were other influences too & the populations were undoubtedly heavily mixed, but the point still remains that they represented & followed the languages & customs of the Indo-Europeans. This is also visible in the pottery of Brittania & Gaul & in their cultures & dieties around the time Indo-European languages were spread there. Similarly, the presence of R1a in the Corded ware culture among Germanic speakers gives further credence to the association of R1a with PIE & to a lesser extent R1b. The sample size in this particular case does matter but the point is that IE are claimed to have dominated as elites in Western Europe at some point & in Greece & in Italy in the form of the small Latins tribe. Their heavy demographic presence wouldn't be required in this scenario, but what is known is that they were indeed present. As for the haplogroups of the PIE tribes, genetic research indicates a dominance of R1a, & R1b in some places. Geneticists have already noted & acknowledged the presence of R1a among PIE tribes & their descendants since R1a spread with their expansion as did their languages. There are no older strands of R1a in Greece before the Bronze Age expansion that have been acknowledged by any research I have come across. In fact, the oldest strands of R1a in Greece come with the arrival of proto-Greek speakers as attested to by the Kurgan hypothesis or it would have fallen apart. Similarly, even if some strands of R1a in Greece are older than Central Asia then that doesn't mean much because some research indicates that some R1a mixture in the Indus is younger than other parts of the Sub-Continent indicating subsequent migrations. This also holds for Central Asia since the migrations weren't that fast or in one go either. Even in the Indus, the migrations are said to have lasted the course of a 1000 years. Some R1a in Greece is bound to be recent as well, wheres migrations from the Eurasian steppes in to the Balkans have gone on for almost 5000 years replenishing the R1a stock to some extent as well as introducing new varieties of it.
Here is a reconstruction of the proto-Greek area & it's noticeable towards the northern regions where the migrants came from & it's in the northern regions where R1a is present in greater amounts.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png
All in all, we have more than enough proof that the original Greek & Latin speakers were indeed from among PIE tribes with a mixture of both R1a & R1b. Even the proto-Indo-Iranians are said to have some R1b in them. There is genetic proof, linguistic, historic, archaeological, religious, & even evidence for elite dominance. So it's safe to say that the proto-Indo-Iranians were cousins to the proto-Greeks, original Latins tribe & others. Of course we are talking about the IE Greeks & Latins, not the Pelasgians or Etruscans. Genetic & historical evidence corroborates that. The appearance of these haplogroups in the region tend to coincide with the spread of IE languages clearly demonstrating that the speakers of those languages belonged to R1a & also R1b. More research is going on as we speak of course, & the Kurgan hypothesis remains the mainstream & dominant view. The Hittites too were Indo-Europeans due to the presence of R1b.
Another interesting point to note is the appearance of ancient Greeks & Romans. They were fair skinned people in general but definitely not as pale as let's say Germans. That isn't really the point since we all know that members of the same race, in this case the Caucasian race have varying skin tones. Homer's Iliad describes the somewhat legendary figures of the Trojan Wars, as in Achilles & I believe King Menalaus as being red haired. These figures would have lived during the Mycenaean age, & red hair is also associated with R1b, but that can't be a 100% confirmed since research on that is on going so the details may change. Also note that red hair is a recessive trait so the maternal haplogroup associated with it is also under research. If this is true though, then it would be another sign of R1b's presence in Mycenaean Greece apart from the genetic evidence we already have which is of course the presence of R1a & R1b upon the arrival of IE speakers as demonstrated in the Corded Ware culture & the Balkans region. Since the association of red hair still isn't a 100% confirmed, this additional point may or may not remain valid in the future, but there is nothing wrong with bringing it up. The historicity of the Trojan war isn't confirmed either but the idea that Homer described a Greek elite & warrior in the Mycenaean age as being red haired indicates that Greeks would without a doubt have had individuals with such an appearance or Homer's audience would have pointed out that those individuals do not pass for Greeks. Many Greeks & Italians belonging to the haplogroups J2 & E1b1b arrived from migrations from the Middle Eastern region, but the Indo-European Greeks & Latins that brought their language, culture, religion, & even genes to those people are belonging to IE tribes & their consequent civilizations are representative of that. Besides R1a is one of the main few haplogroups present in Greece & even in Italy. Migrations from Greece towards the Middle East did take place in smaller amounts in Alexander's successor kingdoms. The Greco-Roman pantheon shows similarity to the Aryan pantheon, & an example of that is the "sky father" that was mentioned earlier known as Zeus or Jupiter, but all of these cultures also made use of foreign dieties. The Ptolemaic kingdom tried to integrate both Greek & Egyptian religion.
I agree with this mostly, & if you recall, I told you a long time back that in the eastern regions faced more of a cultural dominance rather than a genetic dominance & that's why they speak Indo-European languages. The Indo-Iranian settlements were primarily based on the Indus, Afghanistan, & eastern Iran. That is why I mentioned our ethnic groups in Pakistan that are purer Indo-Iranians. Languages like Spanish & French have also spread by colonisation. Furthermore, even in heavily mixed populations, the genetic connection with other populations will continue to remain either from the paternal or maternal side in spite of the mixture or appearance of an individual. It's also true though that appearance, culture, & language play an important role in identifying an individual & the offspring of racially mixed marriages are more likely to find acceptance among the people they resemble more. That is just human nature.
Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion so far, albeit a lengthy one. Once again, please ignore spelling or grammatical errors that may exist.
Sugarcane
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Hey babe .... i thought you got married.
Chronos
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Basically he was mocking Faujhistorian by calling him a qadiani,
I told him i am a Ahmadi too,I know my personal safety is at risk by saying this, but what the heck
14.2 bloody miles to lahore ,1965 - 2014 who can beat a nation with such Sons | Page 20
that shouldn't be the case at all dude
You are a son of Pakistan as the rest of them. Is this a reason why Ahmadis tend to be more reasonable towards India or am I stereotyping? @Indischer @levina @Alpha1
what's up?
Basically he was mocking Faujhistorian by calling him a qadiani,
I told him i am a Ahmadi too,
14.2 bloody miles to lahore ,1965 - 2014 who can beat a nation with such Sons | Page 20
Is that right?? If you did mean it then you shouldn't be sharing such info for your safety Alphee. Be careful
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