What would you like to have in the JF-17

[war&peace]

What you call crap was and is part of the basic philosophy behind this whole project.

I won't call it crap. However the decision was made out of compulsion and haste. First the leadership wasted a lot of time and then they were left with not much as they were following some invisible deadline. I have mentioned that some work had been done internally by an organisation to design a truly indigenuous aircraft that would have catered for PAF's needs but due to the time and the budget constraints, they voted in favour of joining FC-1 or Super seven 7 program.

 

[PakEye]

I highly doubt JF-17 airframe needs huge improvements in order to be stealthy and end up as new Jet but not JF-17.

Pakistan and China signed an agreement for a Stealth Fighter.

 

[Arsalan]

I won't call it crap. However the decision was made out of compulsion and haste. First the leadership wasted a lot of time and then they were left with not much as they were following some invisible deadline. I have mentioned that some work had been done internally by an organisation to design a truly indigenous aircraft that would have catered for PAF's needs but due to the time and the budget constraints, they voted in favour of joining FC-1 or Super seven 7 program.

It wont have been ideal to go directly for a 100% local product and even then we would have required subsystems. The learning experience of JF17 however have changed that and we are already beginning to hear about it like how other projects may be pursued and how more local input will be sought. The only think that we missed on was getting involved with a JF17 like project earlier but then again, it is easy to say it all now when we have the whole picture in front of us.


Edit: And yes, don't worry friend, JF17 is here to stay. We are not ditching it and we will see gradual progress/improvements.

 

[araz]

I won't call it crap. However the decision was made out of compulsion and haste. First the leadership wasted a lot of time and then they were left with not much as they were following some invisible deadline. I have mentioned that some work had been done internally by an organisation to design a truly indigenuous aircraft that would have catered for PAF's needs but due to the time and the budget constraints, they voted in favour of joining FC-1 or Super seven 7 program.

Compulsion yes but haste I would have thought not. However if you know of this indegenous plane and can share some details it would be appreciated. I dont want to start a flame war here but the neighbours decided to go indegenous and it took them 30 yrs. There aviation industry was far ahead of us. The Chinese worked on the J10 for well over 2 decades inspite of having had blue prints handed to them for the Lavi fighter and have had major set backs. The planning to prototype period for JFT was very efficiently managed inspite of major changes requested from us of the Chinese. This in my view was the ideal solution for our economic state. We have had legacy era fighters filling up the gaps in PAF till now and they need to be replaced. A so called indegenous design with associated setbacks over 2-3 decades would not have served our purpose. I dont think JFT is such a bad design either. We have had to work with a myriad of problems including lack of a suitable engine, appropriate avionics suite, perhaps a bit of reluctance to embark on a bit more adventurous design and use of composites lack of resources and the opposition from within and without to an indigenous endeavour. Now that it has become a success everyone has joined the crowd in chest thumping and claiming how " their" indigenous effort has been such a resounding success.
All in all JFT has been a success beyond people's comprehension.
A

It wont have been ideal to go directly for a 100% local product and even then we would have required subsystems. The learning experience of JF17 however have changed that and we are already beginning to hear about it like how other projects may be pursued and how more local input will be sought. The only think that we missed on was getting involved with a JF17 like project earlier but then again, it is easy to say it all now when we have the whole picture in front of us.


Edit: And yes, don't worry friend, JF17 is here to stay. We are not ditching it and we will see gradual progress/improvements.

I fully agree with your post. JFT for PAC is nothing short of a miracle. Our aviation industry is infantile with no or very little experience of manufacturing fighter planes. We lacked basic machinery and skills in manufacturing alloys, and composite materials. The first breakthrough came in the form of assembly/manufacturing of the Augusta 90Bs as we acquired many machines from that project. There have since b3en further acquisitions. We still lack a specialized steel plant working at producing high grade steel and alloys with an R&D set up for metalurgical research. Jusf this one venture can set you back a couple of billion dollars for a plant. In short we have a lot of challenges ahead of us.
A

 

[RAMPAGE]

We still lack a specialized steel plant working at producing high grade steel and alloys with an R&D set up for metalurgical research. Jusf this one venture can set you back a couple of billion dollars for a plant. In short we have a lot of challenges ahead of us.
A

And the private industry cannot fulfill this demand?

 

[Arsalan]

And the private industry cannot fulfill this demand?

Private sector is business. What will be the motivation? More importantly, they seek security and that is something we have not been able to offer (not security against terrorists but economic and investment securities).

 

[araz]

And the private industry cannot fulfill this demand?

Not after what Bhutto did to the last specialised steel plant in Karachi. It got nationalised and then shut down. I think the army has rejuvenated and reactivated that plant. However more needs to be done. The cost to benefit ratio is auch that no private business man would venture into this field. Plus the risk of setting up plants in Pakistan. Most important is R&D into alloys and steel componenet.
A

 

[Arsalan]

Compulsion yes but haste I would have thought not. However if you know of this indegenous plane and can share some details it would be appreciated. I dont want to start a flame war here but the neighbours decided to go indegenous and it took them 30 yrs. There aviation industry was far ahead of us. The Chinese worked on the J10 for well over 2 decades inspite of having had blue prints handed to them for the Lavi fighter and have had major set backs. The planning to prototype period for JFT was very efficiently managed inspite of major changes requested from us of the Chinese. This in my view was the ideal solution for our economic state. We have had legacy era fighters filling up the gaps in PAF till now and they need to be replaced. A so called indegenous design with associated setbacks over 2-3 decades would not have served our purpose. I dont think JFT is such a bad design either. We have had to work with a myriad of problems including lack of a suitable engine, appropriate avionics suite, perhaps a bit of reluctance to embark on a bit more adventurous design and use of composites lack of resources and the opposition from within and without to an indigenous endeavour. Now that it has become a success everyone has joined the crowd in chest thumping and claiming how " their" indigenous effort has been such a resounding success.
All in all JFT has been a success beyond people's comprehension.

Agreed sir. The hick ups may be there, few short comings may need to be addressed but all that was not unexpected, the achievements were, given our sorry state. People must understand that this was a first step and it have opened up new avenues. Lets just hope we do explore them and from what we have started to hear already, those who make such decisions are aware of the opportunities ahead and there are talks of exploring these new avenues.

I fully agree with your post. JFT for PAC is nothing short of a miracle. Our aviation industry is infantile with no or very little experience of manufacturing fighter planes. We lacked basic machinery and skills in manufacturing alloys, and composite materials. The first breakthrough came in the form of assembly/manufacturing of the Augusta 90Bs as we acquired many machines from that project. There have since b3en further acquisitions. We still lack a specialized steel plant working at producing high grade steel and alloys with an R&D set up for metalurgical research. Jusf this one venture can set you back a couple of billion dollars for a plant. In short we have a lot of challenges ahead of us.
A

True!!
That steel/alloys is one segment we need investment and attention on at a government level. Sub-systems may be covered by private sector as well but a project of scale of specialized steel manufacturing will need investment at government level and we all understand that the government is not really in such a position to do that all by themselves. Still it do not changes a fact that any investment in this segment will benefit all arms of military forces and beyond!

 

[RAMPAGE]

Most important is R&D into alloys and steel componenet.
A

NDC must be doing some R&D.

 

[araz]

NDC must be doing some R&D.

I am not aware of what is going on in NDC.
A

 

[barbarosa]

There are thousand kinds of fighter air craft.
If a company build an aircraft according to my thought, thousand of people will reject it and they will be try to build it according to their thoughts.
According to the thought of the thousand, it will not be an air craft but chun chun ka murabba.
Only PAF retired officers pilots technicians engineers can give best suggestions.
Ye har eeray gheeray ka kam nahi hay

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Indigenous is rather a hollow word. Only needed and used for political milage.

Is Gripen truely indigenous?

Or Euro fighter?

Even the F22 had the composites coming from Japan.

Practical and pragmatic is the only way. By track record Pak appears to be quite of both.

Same for JF and its sons and grandsons... collaboration and subcontracting.

PAC is doing quite a job here. Every organisation has enternal dynamics. None is perfect or can be. Given the context and economic environment, PAC pulled this one off with the flying colours.

When a country buys platforms from abroad... that country not only parts with cash but with its future diplomatic and economic advantage as well.

Didn't Sweeds refuse gripen to PAF? or other weapons to SA. Wouldn't even mention this F16 saga.

Just keep churning out these birds and its follow ons.. create jobs and build technical capability..70% minimum local content. Turks are there, the Chinese are there...Italians are there...rather a long list of partners and providers...

 

[war&peace]

Compulsion yes but haste I would have thought not. However if you know of this indegenous plane and can share some details it would be appreciated. I dont want to start a flame war here but the neighbours decided to go indegenous and it took them 30 yrs. There aviation industry was far ahead of us. The Chinese worked on the J10 for well over 2 decades inspite of having had blue prints handed to them for the Lavi fighter and have had major set backs. The planning to prototype period for JFT was very efficiently managed inspite of major changes requested from us of the Chinese. This in my view was the ideal solution for our economic state. We have had legacy era fighters filling up the gaps in PAF till now and they need to be replaced. A so called indegenous design with associated setbacks over 2-3 decades would not have served our purpose. I dont think JFT is such a bad design either. We have had to work with a myriad of problems including lack of a suitable engine, appropriate avionics suite, perhaps a bit of reluctance to embark on a bit more adventurous design and use of composites lack of resources and the opposition from within and without to an indigenous endeavour. Now that it has become a success everyone has joined the crowd in chest thumping and claiming how " their" indigenous effort has been such a resounding success.
All in all JFT has been a success beyond people's comprehension.

I agree with most part of your comment and I very proud of Pakistan has been able to get an airplane that we can call it our own within our limited resources and within a relatively short development cycle time thanks to China and what I love about this platform is its ability to get upgrades in the form of blocks and block III will be a very capable fighter with AESA radars and HMDS and all other goodies but that fact remains that we did not had a lot of say and control during the design and development cycle and as there are a few caveats in the design that do not suit PAFs need for example slightly shorter airframe and especially shorter landing gear legs and these can only be addressed with an airframe upgrade but I don't see that happening in any of the blocks including III and IV as most of the upgrades are aimed at Avionics. That's where the question arises that how much control or say PAF has in the design. We are basicaly manufacturing JF-17; For example the dual seater JF-17 designed and prototyped in China and we will just get delivery and finalised design/drawings to manufacture here. I think that was a smart way to get an airplane developed but we still need another airframe to fulfill all these requirements and that's where a few 4.5+ gen airplanes come in picture before the induction of a true 5th gen aircraft like J31, TFX or anyother.

As far as the endveavour of developing an indigenously designed aircraft is concerned, it was shelved after the preliminary design case as the higher command deemed fit to go ahead with FC-1 or Super 7 Program. It was 30% larger than current JF-17.

 

[war&peace]

It wont have been ideal to go directly for a 100% local product and even then we would have required subsystems. The learning experience of JF17 however have changed that and we are already beginning to hear about it like how other projects may be pursued and how more local input will be sought. The only think that we missed on was getting involved with a JF17 like project earlier but then again, it is easy to say it all now when we have the whole picture in front of us.


Edit: And yes, don't worry friend, JF17 is here to stay. We are not ditching it and we will see gradual progress/improvements.

I like and favour JF-17 and I wish we can overcome its limitations. I know it will be here after investing so much resources but also wish that some airframe level upgrades are incorporated in block IV or V so as to accommodate our indigenously developed ALCMs etc. It is heartening for me know that PAF leadership (Air Chief's recent interviews) has now realised the importance of indigenously designing the project though with assistance and joint ventures.

 

[araz]

I agree with most part of your comment and I very proud of Pakistan has been able to get an airplane that we can call it our own within our limited resources and within a relatively short development cycle time thanks to China and what I love about this platform is its ability to get upgrades in the form of blocks and block III will be a very capable fighter with AESA radars and HMDS and all other goodies but that fact remains that we did not had a lot of say and control during the design and development cycle and as there are a few caveats in the design that do not suit PAFs need for example slightly shorter airframe and especially shorter landing gear legs and these can only be addressed with an airframe upgrade but I don't see that happening in any of the blocks including III and IV as most of the upgrades are aimed at Avionics. That's where the question arises that how much