What would you like to have in the JF-17

[araz]

This is the era of outsourcing and insourcing.

One totally agrees with the idea of local R&D in the fields of metallurgy and more so in new material sciene...

at the sametime, given the development curve of your aviation industry would it not be wise to make rational jumps in development?

With 3D printing 'factory' and imported alloys game changes faster. ROI will be sooner.

Copy what is working (to accelerate production and of course learning),
import what is necessary,
improve what you can.

Buy time and keep churning out platforms..

There are no medals if its 100% yours or not...

does the defence system work & keeps your country safe,

is it cost effective,

has it created jobs,

can you build on it to jump to the next stage of development cycle?

By skipping a few phases your country can enter a development curve that will break your chains.

PAC is doing great work.

In brief this is exactly what PAC is planning to do. There was a news item a few weeks or a month ago suggesting that PAC is looking at 3D machinery to enhance its building capacity. This needs to happen. From The Augusta building experience PN acquired huge experience in specialized welding for Subs and the CAD machines and software was used for JFT manufacturing.
However we could do with a set up for research into composites which can reduce weightof our platforms and may be more stealthier. the only problem is that these jumps can be problematic if there is a hurdle or glitch in the system you then do not know where to start sorting it out.
A

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

In brief this is exactly what PAC is planning to do. There was a news item a few weeks or a month ago suggesting that PAC is looking at 3D machinery to enhance its building capacity. This needs to happen. From The Augusta building experience PN acquired huge experience in specialized welding for Subs and the CAD machines and software was used for JFT manufacturing.
However we could do with a set up for research into composites which can reduce weightof our platforms and may be more stealthier. the only problem is that these jumps can be problematic if there is a hurdle or glitch in the system you then do not know where to start sorting it out.
A

Kind sir, many thanks for your feedback. Essence of industrial planning = future pacing and risk mitigation.

It is no different than war gamming, only for development. My personal view that the evolution of JF into a bigger and more potent platform is just now the question of time.

With current infrastructure you just need a new factory, better equipped the current one.

One production line for export of JF and its future variants...(it is going to 500+ planes) and the other newer one for your medium role semin stealth fighter.

Now this new fighter doesn't have to able fight the Martians UFOs like your superior neighbour's- but enought to replace your F16 twice in numbers.

Most import than these fancy birds and all that jazz... most important is trained workforce, infrastructure and knowledge base... jobs, jobs, jobs.

Do forgive repeating the same lines... just wish young people see that with Praeto planning you can shorten your development time. PNS is different discussion but your views on the markt. Agreed!

 

[volatile]

First step is to learn Carbon Fiber ,enhance its potential and setup assembly units but this tech is hard to get buy specially the manufacturing

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

First step is to learn Carbon Fiber ,enhance its potential and setup assembly units but this tech is hard to get buy specially the manufacturing

You already have composite manufacturing in your country. The military grade composites is a different story.
Buid from Chinese composities...perferably local manufacture... it is not near the japanese level yet but almost there. The preference must be local production.

 

[Shabi1]

First step is to learn Carbon Fiber ,enhance its potential and setup assembly units but this tech is hard to get buy specially the manufacturing

We already have aviation grade carbon fiber manufacturing capability, watch the documentary on PAC Kamra on vimeo.

 

[volatile]

couldnt find

We alreaddnty have aviation grade carbon fiber manufacturing capability, watch the documentary on PAC Kamra on vimeo.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

couldnt find

Great! One thing less to worry about...

 

[araz]

Kind sir, many thanks for your feedback. Essence of industrial planning = future pacing and risk mitigation.

It is no different than war gamming, only for development. My personal view that the evolution of JF into a bigger and more potent platform is just now the question of time.

With current infrastructure you just need a new factory, better equipped the current one.

One production line for export of JF and its future variants...(it is going to 500+ planes) and the other newer one for your medium role semin stealth fighter.

Now this new fighter doesn't have to able fight the Martians UFOs like your superior neighbour's- but enought to replace your F16 twice in numbers.

Most import than these fancy birds and all that jazz... most important is trained workforce, infrastructure and knowledge base... jobs, jobs, jobs.

Do forgive repeating the same lines... just wish young people see that with Praeto planning you can shorten your development time. PNS is different discussion but your views on the markt. Agreed!

Thank you for your kind words and sentiments behind. I agree with your assessment regarding the JFT and see it growing with the passage of time. However I have to disagree with you regarding a second medium weight indigenous fighter. We will need 60-80 such fighters at a stretch. Now unless we had a partner willing to share the costs which would run into billions or a need of a couple of hundred fighters( which we will not) we will not have an indegenous fighter programme running alongside the JFT based on the cost benefit analysis. The third fighter along with the 16s and JFT will be an off the shelf product to our specification. I suspect being at the interface of generation of fighters we will wait and get J31 or equivalent.
However drone based advances may well be something PAF might invest in as they are cheaper to run and a loss does not necessarily mean much. Whether this translates into a 6th generation platform is something that remains to be seen. The aviation city and a vision beyond F35 can only in my view translate into a product entering service in 2050s for which we will have time and capacity to grow. However between then and now is a long time.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

Kind sir, many thanks for your feedback. Essence of industrial planning = future pacing and risk mitigation.

It is no different than war gamming, only for development. My personal view that the evolution of JF into a bigger and more potent platform is just now the question of time.

With current infrastructure you just need a new factory, better equipped the current one.

One production line for export of JF and its future variants...(it is going to 500+ planes) and the other newer one for your medium role semin stealth fighter.

Now this new fighter doesn't have to able fight the Martians UFOs like your superior neighbour's- but enought to replace your F16 twice in numbers.

Most import than these fancy birds and all that jazz... most important is trained workforce, infrastructure and knowledge base... jobs, jobs, jobs.

Do forgive repeating the same lines... just wish young people see that with Praeto planning you can shorten your development time. PNS is different discussion but your views on the markt. Agreed!

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. Tactically---the JF17 has to be upgraded to a larger aircraft.

I remember when Mr Soichiro Honda was alive---he would not allow his company engineers to build a 6 cylinder engine for cars for the U S market- It was a big hurdle in selling hondas in the U S---even though the 4 cyl sold very well.

After he passed away---a 6 cyl was introduced---which was introduced in a car---a miniva---an suv and a truck.

But in the meantime---the technology got advanced---the 4 cylinders started putting out more horsepower and the honda cars got bigger as well.

Till they reached the OPTIMAL design phase of the product.

Similar is the case with the JF17---a technical observer would know and understand that the JF17 being a wonderful product on its own merit is a size and a half too small from its optimal size.

That is why I had stated many a times---. Japan's F2 was the perfect example for the Paf---a smaller country facing a larger enemy---.

Paf may chose what it wants to do---but that does not change the tactical reality of the size of the design.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Thank you for your kind words and sentiments behind. I agree with your assessment regarding the JFT and see it growing with the passage of time. However I have to disagree with you regarding a second medium weight indigenous fighter. We will need 60-80 such fighters at a stretch. Now unless we had a partner willing to share the costs which would run into billions or a need of a couple of hundred fighters( which we will not) we will not have an indegenous fighter programme running alongside the JFT based on the cost benefit analysis. The third fighter along with the 16s and JFT will be an off the shelf product to our specification. I suspect being at the interface of generation of fighters we will wait and get J31 or equivalent.
However drone based advances may well be something PAF might invest in as they are cheaper to run and a loss does not necessarily mean much. Whether this translates into a 6th generation platform is something that remains to be seen. The aviation city and a vision beyond F35 can only in my view translate into a product entering service in 2050s for which we will have time and capacity to grow. However between then and now is a long time.
A

Dear Araz, sir, your feedback is highly valued. Your sense of practical is duely regaded. However, just for the sake of understanding, I beg to suggest that a new indigenous platform is not one is recommending. Rather an agile and evolutionary approach really.

Please, consider this...PAC & CAC is sitting on a mountain of data coming from JF, J10 and J20. Every kind of testing, anlaysis and findings thereof are goldmine to form input into the evolution of a platform based on JF. No need to reinvent the wheel and go for greenfield design. With this data in hand and a lot of computer simulations will help you accelerate desing, develop and deploy a JF 2.0 only larger with stealth shaping.. not true stealth.

Numbers are truly needed. Twice the numbers of JF. Only one political hurdle would be that this JF2.0 will be direct competitor of J10C/D/E. Would CAC like it?

Truly, money thing is a state of mind. Let the JF bring in some... 10 fighter here, 20 there... before you know JF will be financing many of your programmes. You need concerted effort from your diplomats.. professional peole not the political classes.

We wil all see this happen.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. Tactically---the JF17 has to be upgraded to a larger aircraft.

I remember when Mr Soichiro Honda was alive---he would not allow his company engineers to build a 6 cylinder engine for cars for the U S market- It was a big hurdle in selling hondas in the U S---even though the 4 cyl sold very well.

After he passed away---a 6 cyl was introduced---which was introduced in a car---a miniva---an suv and a truck.

But in the meantime---the technology got advanced---the 4 cylinders started putting out more horsepower and the honda cars got bigger as well.

Till they reached the OPTIMAL design phase of the product.

Similar is the case with the JF17---a technical observer would know and understand that the JF17 being a wonderful product on its own merit is a size and a half too small from its optimal size.

That is why I had stated many a times---. Japan's F2 was the perfect example for the Paf---a smaller country facing a larger enemy---.

Paf may chose what it wants to do---but that does not change the tactical reality of the size of the design.

Dear Mr. MK, one admires your consistency of being the voice in the apparent wilderness.

Any analyst or fort that matter one who considers him/herself a strategist can not deny the fact that 150 JF are the max. After that PAF would need at least double this number for their JF2.0 to replace their F16s and what not.

Given the similaritys between JF 1.0 and JF2.0, maintainance and tactics will be a breeze. And let us not cost of production.

IT will cost around a billion to just acquire 10+ SU35 excluding the training and whatnot. And Russian always have their pound flesh and then some more.. Just look at the superior eastern state...

Now the numbers are what is needed.

Not taking such a programme forward will deny your country so much more than just fighters...PAF is just one block in the building of your state..not a stand alone artefact.

J31 can/must be absorbed into stealth programme but only as a design and production methodolgy...

Sir, keep repeating the meme... it will reach the intended ears. Bless you all.

 

[araz]

Dear Araz, sir, your feedback is highly valued. Your sense of practical is duely regaded. However, just for the sake of understanding, I beg to suggest that a new indigenous platform is not one is recommending. Rather an agile and evolutionary approach really.

Please, consider this...PAC & CAC is sitting on a mountain of data coming from JF, J10 and J20. Every kind of testing, anlaysis and findings thereof are goldmine to form input into the evolution of a platform based on JF. No need to reinvent the wheel and go for greenfield design. With this data in hand and a lot of computer simulations will help you accelerate desing, develop and deploy a JF 2.0 only larger with stealth shaping.. not true stealth.

Numbers are truly needed. Twice the numbers of JF. Only one political hurdle would be that this JF2.0 will be direct competitor of J10C/D/E. Would CAC like it?

Truly, money thing is a state of mind. Let the JF bring in some... 10 fighter here, 20 there... before you know JF will be financing many of your programmes. You need concerted effort from your diplomats.. professional peole not the political classes.

We wil all see this happen.



Dear Mr. MK, one admires your consistency of being the voice in the apparent wilderness.

Any analyst or fort that matter one who considers him/herself a strategist can not deny the fact that 150 JF are the max. After that PAF would need at least double this number for their JF2.0 to replace their F16s and what not.

Given the similaritys between JF 1.0 and JF2.0, maintainance and tactics will be a breeze. And let us not cost of production.

IT will cost around a billion to just acquire 10+ SU35 excluding the training and whatnot. And Russian always have their pound flesh and then some more.. Just look at the superior eastern state...

Now the numbers are what is needed.

Not taking such a programme forward will deny your country so much more than just fighters...PAF is just one block in the building of your state..not a stand alone artefact.

J31 can/must be absorbed into stealth programme but only as a design and production methodolgy...

Sir, keep repeating the meme... it will reach the intended ears. Bless you all.

Thank you for your post. I note your concerns regarding size of JFTand a need to amalgamate the experience of the Chinese acquired via building J11,J10,J20and J31 along with JFT. The possibility is there howevercthe cost is going t9 be a serious handicap. Please consider the following:
A. Technological advances are very hard earned commodities and no one repeat NO ONE shares them with another entity
B. There is a significant conflict of interest and the Chinese would rather sell youJ31 then share knowledge with you. I strongly suspect they will not even allow you any more input into J31 beyond depot level maintenance and perhaps minor assembly.
C. Because you will need to change engine to a bigger one you will need to deal with other vendors than the Chinese. That is going to be another Pandoras box. Where ars you going to acquire your engine frok22m3e
D. Every minor alteration sets a programme back by two or three yrs. With a legacy fleet wd need to replacexfighters quickly. You won't be lable to do so with a fighter that c9sts twice the money.
So where can one go? In my view JFT will progress with mpre composite a more poerful engine better avionics andAESA radar. This is a period of consolidation rather than a flight of fancy
If you think a fighter is needed in 2025 I would get J31 and use it for the roles that you seek third fighter.

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear Araz, sir, your feedback is highly valued. Your sense of practical is duely regaded. However, just for the sake of understanding, I beg to suggest that a new indigenous platform is not one is recommending. Rather an agile and evolutionary approach really.

Please, consider this...PAC & CAC is sitting on a mountain of data coming from JF, J10 and J20. Every kind of testing, anlaysis and findings thereof are goldmine to form input into the evolution of a platform based on JF. No need to reinvent the wheel and go for greenfield design. With this data in hand and a lot of computer simulations will help you accelerate desing, develop and deploy a JF 2.0 only larger with stealth shaping.. not true stealth.

Numbers are truly needed. Twice the numbers of JF. Only one political hurdle would be that this JF2.0 will be direct competitor of J10C/D/E. Would CAC like it?

Truly, money thing is a state of mind. Let the JF bring in some... 10 fighter here, 20 there... before you know JF will be financing many of your programmes. You need concerted effort from your diplomats.. professional peole not the political classes.

We wil all see this happen.



Dear Mr. MK, one admires your consistency of being the voice in the apparent wilderness.

Any analyst or fort that matter one who considers him/herself a strategist can not deny the fact that 150 JF are the max. After that PAF would need at least double this number for their JF2.0 to replace their F16s and what not.

Given the similaritys between JF 1.0 and JF2.0, maintainance and tactics will be a breeze. And let us not cost of production.

IT will cost around a billion to just acquire 10+ SU35 excluding the training and whatnot. And Russian always have their pound flesh and then some more.. Just look at the superior eastern state...

Now the numbers are what is needed.

Not taking such a programme forward will deny your country so much more than just fighters...PAF is just one block in the building of your state..not a stand alone artefact.

J31 can/must be absorbed into stealth programme but only as a design and production methodolgy...

Sir, keep repeating the meme... it will reach the intended ears. Bless you all.

Hi,

A JF17---version 2.0---ie---with a 20% increase in size would be the perfect optimal solution.

A 20% increase in size is within the parameters of the current design structure---but it would increase the potency by a multiplier of 1.5---1.8 times---ie---an increase in load carrying capacity---weapons and EW suite.

They should stop worrying about a 8.5---9 G performing aircraft----settle for a 7--7.5 G performing aircraft that can fly long and carry more load.

The best thing about this upgrade is that it would be the least expensive upgrade and would be in the shortest possible time.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sir,

@Maj.Osmani I have deep respect for you and your service to your country. You have contributed very positively to this forum. My humble opinion would be, that both of you should just "agree to disagree" and leave it at that. Look at the +ve's ignore the -ve's and move on. He is a true patriot and should be the least of your worries.

Kindly do take my comments in the right spirit.

Best Regards

sorry but he is a fake and his claims couldnt be substantiated. dont be mislead by titles and claims alone.
look at the activity and post quality and it will be all clear to you and you might also notice a similar posting pattern with some known troll

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Hi,

A JF17---version 2.0---ie---with a 20% increase in size would be the perfect optimal solution.

A 20% increase in size is within the parameters of the current design structure---but it would increase the potency by a multiplier of 1.5---1.8 times---ie---an increase in load carrying capacity---weapons and EW suite.

They should stop worrying about a 8.5---9 G performing aircraft----settle for a 7--7.5 G performing aircraft that can fly long and carry more load.

The best thing about this upgrade is that it would be the least expensive upgrade and would be in the shortest possible time.

Mr. Khan, that is the entire point. Your assertion is dead on the mark. Pak/PAF strategy has to be 20/80 rule thus making the spending spree of your esteemed eastern hegemon redundant. Instead going bankrupt in the process and even more dependent on external powers...The best and only solution is home built. Mind you not necessarily home grown but home built. Just utilise the existing framework and infrastructure... build capabilities... create jobs.

Only then will you increase your comprehensive natuaral power. I duely totally agree with your solution as step 2 in JF development.

Thank you for your post. I note your concerns regarding size of JFTand a need to amalgamate the experience of the Chinese acquired via building J11,J10,J20and J31 along with JFT. The possibility is there howevercthe cost is going t9 be a serious handicap. Please consider the following:
A. Technological advances are very hard earned commodities and no one repeat NO ONE shares them with another entity
B. There is a significant conflict of interest and the Chinese would rather sell youJ31 then share knowledge with you. I strongly suspect they will not even allow you any more input into J31 beyond depot level maintenance and perhaps minor assembly.
C. Because you will need to change engine to a bigger one you will need to deal with other vendors than the Chinese. That is going to be another Pandoras box. Where ars you going to acquire your engine frok22m3e
D. Every minor alteration sets a programme back by two or three yrs. With a legacy fleet wd need to replacexfighters quickly. You won't be lable to do so with a fighter that c9sts twice the money.
So where can one go? In my view JFT will progress with mpre composite a more poerful engine better avionics andAESA radar. This is a period of consolidation rather than a flight of fancy
If you think a fighter is needed in 2025 I would get J31 and use it for the roles that you seek third fighter.

Dear Araz, thank you for your kind and systematic reply. A practical mind is structured one. Your, sir, enjoy one!

If I may, in sincere and good spirit, challenge your points just to extend our understanding of issues at hand...mind you from practical point of view the 'problems' you highlighted are there. No denying them if nothing is/can be done. If the logic is extended then... there is no use in trying all is boxed and no opportunities are there to break free...

Can it ever be so?

There is a window of opportunity opening up in the international relastions that offers your country many a benefit.

OF course, this will depend on the finess of your esteemd establishment. Again one is not refering to your political classes but the establishment.

No problems. None. Your really have no problems. You swin in the seas of opportunities..

All problems have solutions attached to them.

It is the question of perspective and spirit.

If one changes the practical and limiting mindset to creative and counter intuitive.. onorthodox solutions just rain.

Yes, no one will try to create a competitor for themselves. But they are not selling any of their planes.

JF is replacing Mig21 and will keep doing so for perhaps a decade or two. just mark it somewhere. 10 planes here 20 there and before you know you have sold a record.

Who is going to really buy J31?

Iran perhaps.

Pakistan most likely. Who else???

Now, just throwing it out there, who can/will buy a semi stealth JF 2.0 (only using as a title) in numbers...

PAF needs them and can build them in numbers, bringing price even lower.

Your labour cost is lower than SAC/CAC. They Chinese government finance the deals and share profits...just a possible solution.

IF not then just use the older engines from your Mirages (twiin engine JF2.0 then) and make the bloody thing fly.
But chart your course on your own. Involve anyone or everyone... Just get on with confidence. Build it figergass even if you have to... but just do it.

Obviously this forum is great eductional place for ones like yours truly to learn about the minds of people.

I would say remain practical but be counter intuitive.

May I invite you, for the sake of mental excercise, to take a leave of your mature and robust practicality. And come up with create, outragious, absurd solutions to your a b c d.

I for one, would be honoured and delighted to read your take on solutions. Bless you all.

 

[MastanKhan]

Obviously this forum is great eductional place for ones like yours truly to learn about the minds of people.

I would say remain practical but be counter intuitive.

May I invite you, for the sake of mental excercize, to take a leave of your mature and robust practicality. And come up with create, outrageous, absurd solutions to your a b c d.

I for one, would be honored and delighted to read your take on solutions. Bless you all.

Hi,

Hahahahaha-----you just made me put on MACK THE KNIFE---.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10150891448469581

You slipped one right thru the flank---.

People don't understand that it was the pursuit of " outrageous things " that made america what it is today---and what it will be tomorrow---.

I mean to say---how difficult is it to stay ordinary. That is what I have been saying----push them hard---push them harder---and when you think that you have pushed them harder---then push them some more---.