What would you like to have in the JF-17

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Hi,

Hahahahaha-----you just made me put on MACK THE KNIFE---.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10150891448469581

You slipped one right thru the flank---.

People don't understand that it was the pursuit of " outrageous things " that made america what it is today---and what it will be tomorrow---.

I mean to say---how difficult is it to stay ordinary. That is what I have been saying----push them hard---push them harder---and when you think that you have pushed them harder---then push them some more---.

Dear Mr. Khan, having read your posts for years... one thought you might need reinforcement.

When we keep on doing the same things...our lives will remain the same.

Time for your countrymen to wake up to the reality they find themselves in.

The Great Game 2.0 is in full swing... if your country plays it cards right.. truly, it will break free and will be on the glide path towards development. It is all in the attitude.

It will be shooting in the foot and then some more, if PAC does not rise to the challenge and make all the PAF fighters at home. The thing is bigger than PAF needs.

These iron/carbon birds will bring in dough and enhance your diplomatic power. Let JF be the path finder. It is your opportunity to waste.

One hopes good for your country. By shere accident it has found itself in favour of the goddess of fortune. Let us see if there are any alive to her advances...

 

[P4K1ST4N]

You give far too much credit to Bhutto. The crook is reponsiblle for the dismemberment of pakistan and the financial turmoil the country went into for half a decade.
A

And rest of the lot from 1947 to 1971 were playing video games in Bangladesh, but lets throw entire blame on Bhutto. Right?

 

[araz]

Mr. Khan, that is the entire point. Your assertion is dead on the mark. Pak/PAF strategy has to be 20/80 rule thus making the spending spree of your esteemed eastern hegemon redundant. Instead going bankrupt in the process and even more dependent on external powers...The best and only solution is home built. Mind you not necessarily home grown but home built. Just utilise the existing framework and infrastructure... build capabilities... create jobs.

Only then will you increase your comprehensive natuaral power. I duely totally agree with your solution as step 2 in JF development.



Dear Araz, thank you for your kind and systematic reply. A practical mind is structured one. Your, sir, enjoy one!

If I may, in sincere and good spirit, challenge your points just to extend our understanding of issues at hand...mind you from practical point of view the 'problems' you highlighted are there. No denying them if nothing is/can be done. If the logic is extended then... there is no use in trying all is boxed and no opportunities are there to break free...

Can it ever be so?

There is a window of opportunity opening up in the international relastions that offers your country many a benefit.

OF course, this will depend on the finess of your esteemd establishment. Again one is not refering to your political classes but the establishment.

No problems. None. Your really have no problems. You swin in the seas of opportunities..

All problems have solutions attached to them.

It is the question of perspective and spirit.

If one changes the practical and limiting mindset to creative and counter intuitive.. onorthodox solutions just rain.

Yes, no one will try to create a competitor for themselves. But they are not selling any of their planes.

JF is replacing Mig21 and will keep doing so for perhaps a decade or two. just mark it somewhere. 10 planes here 20 there and before you know you have sold a record.

Who is going to really buy J31?

Iran perhaps.

Pakistan most likely. Who else???

Now, just throwing it out there, who can/will buy a semi stealth JF 2.0 (only using as a title) in numbers...

PAF needs them and can build them in numbers, bringing price even lower.

Your labour cost is lower than SAC/CAC. They Chinese government finance the deals and share profits...just a possible solution.

IF not then just use the older engines from your Mirages (twiin engine JF2.0 then) and make the bloody thing fly.
But chart your course on your own. Involve anyone or everyone... Just get on with confidence. Build it figergass even if you have to... but just do it.

Obviously this forum is great eductional place for ones like yours truly to learn about the minds of people.

I would say remain practical but be counter intuitive.

May I invite you, for the sake of mental excercise, to take a leave of your mature and robust practicality. And come up with create, outragious, absurd solutions to your a b c d.

I for one, would be honoured and delighted to read your take on solutions. Bless you all.

Lets wait for the specs of block 3. I suspect a lot of the concerns will be answered. I think there is still potential for this platform to grow without changing its size. With a few relatively inexpensive tweeks we can increase range and hardpoints. IFR has alleviated most concerns about range. We do not have the money or capacity at this stage to go around experimenting with a new platform.
A

 

[Allen Iverson]

At the end of the day, though being an Indian, I can't stop from applauding the Pakistani establishment from choosing the JF as their future mainstay of PAF.. It was a very sensible decision, and JF fulfill exactly what the requirements of PAF nothing more, nothing less.. Comparing the cost with other world class fighters, and for that matter, with our Own LCA, gives them top ranks for the choice they have made.. But the amount of indegenisation is still a question mark, when we compare it with LCA but to gain that knowledge India spent 30 years and so much money.. pak has got a decent fighter without all that fuss, where they have scope to indeginise the upgrades slowly.. So overall, it was a very sane decision, which is bearing fruits for PAF..

 

[The SC]

Hi,

A JF17---version 2.0---ie---with a 20% increase in size would be the perfect optimal solution.

A 20% increase in size is within the parameters of the current design structure---but it would increase the potency by a multiplier of 1.5---1.8 times---ie---an increase in load carrying capacity---weapons and EW suite.

They should stop worrying about a 8.5---9 G performing aircraft----settle for a 7--7.5 G performing aircraft that can fly long and carry more load.

The best thing about this upgrade is that it would be the least expensive upgrade and would be in the shortest possible time.

What engine would you put in it? The Chinese one for the J-10B/C?

 

[艹艹艹]

What engine would you put in it? The Chinese one for the J-10B/C?

The engine problem has been solved.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

The engine problem has been solved.

Dear Long, you are right. There is no engine problem. WS10A or WS13E. WS10A later WS10B...

Already 400+ WS10A are flying. Even tested on J10C. The only issue was production rate. Because Chinese need 1500-2000 of these engine for themselves. But the production rate is moving up.

There are no problems...only solutions.

 

[araz]

And rest of the lot from 1947 to 1971 were playing video games in Bangladesh, but lets throw entire blame on Bhutto. Right?

I didnt say that others were not involved but the main culprit was Bhutto. The Bhutto family including his spawn have caused Pakistan immeasurable damage and continue to do so aided and abetted by the stupidity of our own people. But hey if anyone still wants him elevated to the rank of pir or Wali who am I to say anything. More power to you.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

What engine would you put in it? The Chinese one for the J-10B/C?

Hi,

The chinese engine obviously and let the russians compete.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

WS13E is a promising development. With reduction in weight and WS13E or somthing similar... hard points and weight carrying issues are done with. For JF 2.0 WS10A is there waiting and ready...

Russians should be last option as in the case of current engine.

Please, do not forget euro engines are just waiting to happen should Pak dimplomacy win over Saudi/GCC orders of magnitude... there are many low hanging fruits, all what is needed is change in approach and coming up with a package deal so sweat for your arab brothers..that could not refuse it.

If not give Iran and Iraq this bird at discount! But in huge numbers.

Turkey and CARs are there as well. So is South Africa... North Africa is there but would require French connection..Eypte is not over yet.

All that is needed is creative diplomacy. If Pak fails to sell less than 500 JFs then only Pak diplomacy must be blamed. Not PAC.

Even if this plane is sold at minimum profit just sell. Along with the rest of the package that goes with it will finance your JF2.0 and your next generation fighters as well.

Wish you all the best! Kindly just do it. It should be your national mission!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

WS13E is a promising development. With reduction in weight and WS13E or somthing similar... hard points and weight carrying issues are done with. For JF 2.0 WS10A is there waiting and ready...

Russians should be last option as in the case of current engine.

Please, do not forget euro engines are just waiting to happen should Pak dimplomacy win over Saudi/GCC orders of magnitude... there are many low hanging fruits, all what is needed is change in approach and coming up with a package deal so sweat for your arab brothers..that could not refuse it.

If not give Iran and Iraq this bird at discount! But in huge numbers.

Turkey and CARs are there as well. So is South Africa... North Africa is there but would require French connection..Eypte is not over yet.

All that is needed is creative diplomacy. If Pak fails to sell less than 500 JFs then only Pak diplomacy must be blamed. Not PAC.

Even if this plane is sold at minimum profit just sell. Along with the rest of the package that goes with it will finance your JF2.0 and your next generation fighters as well.

Wish you all the best! Kindly just do it. It should be your national mission!!!

Hi,

I would disagree on the diplomacy---. I would blame the paf----first they staged an aircraft in a hurry---presented it when it was not built into a complete package---ie---a single and a 2 seater---then the marketing by the air force---terrible to say the least---.

Totally destroyed the sales of this aircraft---.

Just like Infiniti advertisement and design destroyed its sales at the time of launch at the time of inception---Paf has done the same for this aircraft---.

The only saving grace over here is that there is nothing in the market in this price and capability range.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I again talk about the size of the JF17 as my colleague @Sinopakfriend stated---. Honda and toyota---had to develop their best selling cars the corollas, the camrys, the civics, the accords to the best and most appreciated size in the U S car market.

Why did these giants do that---why did they not keep selling the same---because change was imposed upon them so they changed with the changed requirements and changed needs of the consumer---till they got to the optimum size of their individual cars.

The consumer is happy now---they don't need any of these indibidual cars any larger or any smaller---.

Same with the aircraft JF17---paf will sell the current size JF17's---the user in due time would also want to go to the next size larger---maybe for need---maybe for show---.

Then there are a very large number of users in the middle east for the larger sized JF17---.

Once the first couple of sales are consolidated---there will be a european engine available as well EW package.

For the public on the outside---it is just a waiting game---for the insiders---many a things have been talked and discussed and planned by the engine and EW suite sellers.

Now just imagine---if south africa had not gone for the Gripen and gone for the JF17---and developed a whole plethora of weapons to be launched from their JF17 aircraft---guess what would have happened to their weapons industry---.

@Sinopakfriend ---we cannot sell to iran---it still has sanctions and will be there for awhile. And Iran may not be a buyer for this aircraft---Iraq maybe---.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Hi,

I would disagree on the diplomacy---. I would blame the paf----first they staged an aircraft in a hurry---presented it when it was not built into a complete package---ie---a single and a 2 seater---then the marketing by the air force---terrible to say the least---.

Totally destroyed the sales of this aircraft---.

Just like Infiniti advertisement and design destroyed its sales at the time of launch at the time of inception---Paf has done the same for this aircraft---.

The only saving grace over here is that there is nothing in the market in this price and capability range.

Mr. Khan, valid points to the last digits. Hence the diplomacy. PAF shouldn't be selling the bird in the first place.

If there were to be coordinated gameplan between your FO, establishment and PAF, then a targeted effort can ensue.

You are right and that is the entire point here... there is no competitor to JF in the market and isn't coming for a while.

Sales of JF are the key... the future of PAF, therefore, PAC depends on it. FO must have dined and wined people in the PAC factory.

Just look at the sheer numbers that can be sold, unbelievable.

From Central Asia to ME to Africa to South America and of course Asia.

You are man of pullig off sales... certainly you can imagine its not just the planes that would make you money.
Once the Chinese gave away freelamps to sell the oil afterwards.

Thanks for providing a divergent viewpoint. Always helpful!

 

[MiG-35-BD]

This was a brilliant thread and I apologize for reviving an old thread.
So now that JF-17 III is pretty well understood, JF2.0 as mentioned above, should perhaps be an F-16 replacement program designed around a single WS-10 or twin WS-13 (or as mentioned above, worst case scenario, around a twin of the Mirage engines).

South Africa had a similar program in the Carvar.

I think the following is possible in such a plane:

1. IRST (as the thread suggests) fused with an AESA radar. This should be relatively easy given what Block III plans entail.
2. Either a simple enlarged JF-17 style airframe or if one is to challenge to dream, as senior members have entailed, perhaps a simple Mirage-2000 like delta design - would be optimal for LO, give supercruise and provide a High altitude High speed platform to counter the PAKFA
3. A stealth or semi-stealth design. One does not need a a stealth level equaling the F-35 or F-22, but surely 80/20 rule should apply.
4. I am not sure such an aircraft should have a dual seater as no 5th gen is designed with one. In fact, the age for dual seaters may be gone given advances in simulator. PAF needs a dual seater for a strike / SEAD / DEAD / WW / EW / etc role, not as a trainer model.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Babur chipka do ispe