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What would you like to have in the JF-17

IRST has a spotty history. F-4s and F-106s were equipped with primitive units and Russia included IRST on the MiG-29 and Su-27 families. The U.S. Navy developed IRST for the F-14D Super Tomcat, mainly as a counter to the formidable jamming system on the Tu-22M Backfire. The same hardware was slated for F-22 but discarded in an early budget scrub. In the West, that left Typhoon (Selex) and Rafale (Thales, built into the front sector optronics unlt) as the standard-bearers. More recently, the U.S. Navy has started working on IRST for the Super Hornet, initially with optical hardware from the F-14D days, and Aggressor F-16s have been seen with IRST pods. Selex and others have developed surface-to-air IRSTs.

Early systems had limited range. This had less to do with basic physics and IR technology than with false alarm rates: the IR world is a noisy one, and if the system gain is turned up too high it will detect birds, the sun reflecting off clouds, ground vehicles and everything else. Faster processing and the ability to record and analyze a great deal of IRST data has gradually whittled away at the problem -- and progress in the last few years (according to Eurofighter and other sources) has been rapid.

Hiding from IRST is difficult for anything flying much above 300 knots. There have been isolated reports that the F-22 uses an active cooling system to deal with hot-spots at high speed, but that raises problems -- the heat has to go somewhere.

Like Russia's work on advanced VHF radars, IRST does not mean that stealth is dead. However, it does raise the bar for stealth, particularly in an air-to-air engagement. It makes it more difficult for a low-RCS fighter to engage its adversary without being detected itself -- if both are using IRST, detection may be mutual. (At the same time, the much better electronic warfare systems on modern flighters have redefined "low probability of detection" for a stealth attacker's radar.)

The F-35's electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) is described as having an IRST function. However, like other air-to-ground targeting sensors, it operates in the IR mid-wave band; IRST uses long-wave IR, which is better at long range. Neither is it optimised for the kind of very rapid "step-stare" scanning that an IRST uses to cover a wide area.

http://aviationweek.com/blog/quite-special-and-not-all-boring

Later systems
IRST systems re-appeared on more modern designs starting in the 1980s with the introduction of 2-D sensors, which cued both horizontal and vertical angle. Sensitivities were also greatly improved, leading to better resolution and range. In more recent years, new systems have entered the market. In 2015, Northrop Grumman introduced its OpenPod(TM) IRST pod, which uses a sensor by Selex ES.



Optronique secteur frontal (IRST) of the Dassault Rafale, below the cockpit and to the side of the refueling boom. On the left, the main IR sensor (100 km range), on the right a TV/IR identification sensor with laser rangefinder (40 km range)


Eurofighter Typhoon with PIRATE IRST
The best known users of modern IRST systems are:

These aircraft carry the IRST systems for use in lieu of their radars when the situation warrants it, such as when shadowing other aircraft or under the control of Airborne Early Warning and Control(AWACS) aircraft or Ground-controlled interception(GCI), where an external radar is being used to help vector them onto a target and the IRST is used to pick up and track the target once they are in range.



MiG-29 nose showing radome and S-31E2 KOLS IRST
With infrared homing or fire-and-forget missiles, the aircraft may be able to fire upon the targets without having to turn their radar sets on at all. Otherwise, they can turn the radar on and achieve a lock immediately before firing if desired. They could also close to within cannon range and engage that way.

Whether or not they use their radar, the IRST system can still allow them to launch a surprise attack.

An IRST system may also have a regular magnified optical sight slaved to it, to help the IRST-equipped aircraft identify the target at long range. As opposed to an ordinary forward looking infrared system, an IRST system will actually scan the space around the aircraft similarly to the way in which mechanically (or even electronically) steered radars work. The exception to the scanning technique is the F-35 JSF's DAS, which stares in all directions simultaneously, and automatically detects and declares aircraft and missiles in all directions, without a limit to the number of targets simultaneously tracked.

When they find one or more potential targets they will alert the pilot(s) and display the location of each target relative to the aircraft on a screen, much like a radar. Again similarly to the way a radar works, the operator can tell the IRST to track a particular target of interest, once it has been identified, or scan in a particular direction if a target is believed to be there (for example, because of an advisory from AWACS or another aircraft).

IRST systems can incorporate laser rangefinders in order to provide full fire-control solutions for cannon fire or launching missiles (Optronique secteur frontal). The combination of an atmospheric propagation model, the apparent surface of the target, and target motion analysis (TMA) IRST can calculate the range.

Performance
Detection range varies with

  • clouds
  • altitude
  • air temperature
  • target's attitude
  • target's speed
The higher the altitude, the less dense the atmosphere and the less infrared radiation it absorbs - especially at longer wavelengths. The effect of reduction in friction between air and aircraft does not compensate the better transmission of infrared radiation. Therefore, infrared detection ranges are longer at high altitudes.

At high altitudes, temperatures range from −30 to −50 °C - which provide better contrast between aircraft temperature and background temperature.

The Eurofighter Typhoon's PIRATE IRST can detect subsonic fighters from 50 km from front and 90 km from rear - the larger value being the consequence of directly observing the engine exhaust, with an even greater increase being possible if the target uses afterburners.

The range at which a target can be sufficiently confidently identified to decide on weapon release is significantly inferior to the detection range - manufacturers have claimed it is about 65% of detection range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infra-red_search_and_track
 
Actually you raised a good question.

Some IRST are slaved with the Main Radar of the fighter plane, which can help to pilot to give both the images simultaneously. I think Raven and Skyward are both slaved to each other. Some IRST also have the laser range finder, and some IRST is coupled with Optronic sensors too, such as Russian OLS-30/35 in Su 30/35.

It would be nice if any expert could explain them further.

@Khafee @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @Quwa @Oscar
Thanks for this information i didn't know that slave concept but it is interested that i have read @Quwa article regarding Vixen system (Please correct me if i am wrong) that probable solution exists for separate AESA also AESA coupled with IRST system was present .But it will be interesting to know ,So two parts exists where to mount and how to mount it ,Lets see if PAF personnel are discussing that much :)
 
italian radar
south african's warning sensor (MAWS) and laser warning sensor (LWS) manufactured by Avitronics (South Africa).
and helmet mount display
hope block 3 will be made by composite material
 
Sir,

@Zarvan is a true patriot, and a kind hearted person. His sources have been good, 3 out of 4.
Those so called kind hearted people are playing with the mind of poor nation since war on terror. ....Those are taliban apologists .Here is example.
Screenshot_2015-06-29-00-44-42.jpg



On topic,
nice to see developments in jf17. But due to size it has own limitations. Let see how far we can go. We can't move back again on drawing board just to increase its size to incorporate all things like AESA, IRST, Raad, or more hardpoints.
 
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Hello All
one simple question for all of you !! Is it wise enough to have 200+ JF17 with small body and less capabilities ??
or is it wise to have 200+ JF17 only???
Thank you all

Note: Please do not bring the crape called affordable or cheap Bird " As we all know technology and advance Techs are getting Expansive every day"
What you call crap was and is part of the basic philosophy behind this whole project.
 
Those so called kind hearted people are playing with the mind of poor nation since war on terror. ....Those are taliban apologists .Here is example.
View attachment 315313


On topic,
nice to see developments in jf17. But due to size it has own limitations. Let see how far we can go. We can't move back again on drawing board just to increase its size to incorporate all things like AESA, IRST, Raad, or more hardpoints.
It's the little things we forget lol.
 
Those so called kind hearted people are playing with the mind of poor nation since war on terror. ....Those are taliban apologists .Here is example.
View attachment 315313


On topic,
nice to see developments in jf17. But due to size it has own limitations. Let see how far we can go. We can't move back again on drawing board just to increase its size to incorporate all things like AESA, IRST, Raad, or more hardpoints.
@Zarvan Would you like to clarify this statement?
 
60% composite materials, a powerful engine, electronic suite from Italy (or China, depending on the quality..), AESA/IRST, two points under the belly for light pods with enough space fot the central point, HOBS..Active Cancellation Stealth..
 
@Zarvan Would you like to clarify this statement?
The policy which Musharraf made of taking U turn and becoming USA ally and betraying own people gave birth to TTP and we have lost 90000 people in it. Policies of Musharraf were not only in contradiction with Islam but damaged both our Army and Pakistan. TTP is a monster now which has to be eliminated but this Monster didn't existed before Musharraf decided to send troops in tribal areas and bomb them. His policies resulted in birth of TTP and most bloody phase of Pakistan's history. We have lost 90000 and war is still not over. I have relatives in Army and Musharraf is most hated figure. Imran Khan also warned Musharraf of this but he was to arrogant to listen. Also if you hear former CIA guys even they would tell you Musharraf did things that even USA never demanded one of them was sending troops in tribal areas. I love Pakistan Armed Forces and Pakistan but I would point out where they will go wrong. @Peaceful Civilian When seculars and liberals talk or propagate against me I feel really happy and proud. @FunkyGen
 
Why would Pakistan go for IRST if there was no space inside the aircrzaft frame. If it there is no space available right now, my guess is engineers will do some structural changes. Hanging these goodies on hard points is no good.
 
Why would Pakistan go for IRST if there was no space inside the aircrzaft frame. If it there is no space available right now, my guess is engineers will do some structural changes. Hanging these goodies on hard points is no good.
are you aircraft engineer kiddo?
 
The fighter seems decent, I doubt many other 3rd world countries could even produce such a thing.
 
Please keep relevant discussions here only. All social discussions may please be deleted.

A suitable IRST for JFT would likely be European.
But there only seems to be one European option on the market - the Leonardo/Finmeccanica Skyward.
 
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