what was wrong with Kaveri Engine?

[JohnyD]

Guys,

Can you please share your expert comments as why the IAF did not accept the Kaveri Engine?

As I was reading about Aero Engines, I got surprised to learn that Kaveri in fact had more thrust (both dry and after-burning!) than even Snecma M88 being used in Rafale which India is buying!

It was also flight tested in Russia for good amount of hours...the reason given for its failure was not being able to maintain the required level of thrust during high altitude tests!!

I am surprised or simply don't understand aero-dynamics but was the reason mentioned above the only reason for IAF to not to accept Kaveri for LCA? If so, how it worked out with Rafale then?

 

[Maarkhoor]

How did India master rocket technology, but fail to make a powerful gas turbine for fighter jets (failure of Kaveri engine)?

Suman Dutta


I will tell you that this is a completely baseless statement many of us make for comparison. Generally people keep on accusing DRDO for the failure or tell how lazy the organization is (previously I was also one of them)............why i am saying this cause it's true that India mastered the rocket technology but the core technology in rocket science is it's cryogenic stage which India tested on 5th January 2014. But the actual development of the engine started from 1982-86. It took more than 30 years to develop the engine by ISRO. Before this i don't know how many people actually believe that all the previous launches are based on Russian made cryogenic engines which Govt. of India purchased from Russia. Now come to the gas turbine engine which is a totally different concept from a cryogenic engine. Even the materials which are used in both the engines are totally different. The full scale development of Kaveri took place from 1989. The general development cycle of a first prototype engine from the drawing board will almost take 15-20 years even for companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing and so on. But it will also based on some perquisites like the type of the aircraft, the mission it will undergo, the condition under which the aircraft will fly, the range of the aircraft and most important is the design of the aircraft and it's dry weight. You can prepare an engine if the requirement is static but since technology is keep on developing and thus the requirement of the Indian armed forces so is the delay. Even for Indian conditions there is a problem with the engines cause normally there are two kinds of engines that are developed based on climate of an area. They are either in the hot category of engines or the cold once. The problem in India is if you are operating an aircraft from Ladakh airfield then you need a cold engine but if the aircraft is operated from Jaisalmer then it should be a hot engine. So you can think about the technology needed to make a variable type engine which will work in both kind of climate. Just simply think about it ??? I am not here to justify the delay from DRDO, i am just saying that from the beginning Indian govt. don't have the budget to fund the program like that of the US nor do we have the in-house expertise or industries in India. We have developed everything from the scratch. One more thing, the Kaveri was first developed to power a smaller 4th generation aircraft but with time, the demand of the armed forces keep on increasing from 4.5 to 5th generation. Developing a technology without any help and from the scratch is really a tough job which requires time, capital, state-of-the-art R&D facilities and high skilled labour force. Not a single thing is available to DRDO from the starting.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Couple of factors may be considered.

1. Possibly the MTBT was not high enough compared to other peers, so the aircraft will be maintenance intensive, and hence lower availability.

2. Rafale is a twin engined aircraft with canard for additional lift, so taking off with heavy load to a cruise altitude is not that of a big issue. Tejas on the other hand, is a delta winged light aircraft, taking off with load may be an issue without significant TWR.

3. India is yet to master the crystal blade technology from other peers, hence a ToT on engine might be helpful.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Warplanes: Calamitous Kaveri Cancelled
India has admitted defeat and dropped plans to use the locally developed Kaveri engine in their LCA (Light Combat Aircraft or "Tejas") jet fighter. After 24 years and over $600 million the Kaveri was unable to achieve the necessary performance or reliability goals required for use in the LCA. The government plans to see if the Kaveri can be used in a combat UAV that is being developed locally, and that aircraft is not expected to fly for another five years or more.

The LCA developers saw this coming and a year ago ordered 99 American F414 jet engines for $8.1 million each. These were to be used for the first LCAs being mass produced. Eventually, most of the LCAs were to be powered by the Kaveri engine, which has been in development hell for over two decades. The F414s were to substitute only until the Kaveri was ready. The failure of this engine effort is just one of many examples of how the Indian defense procurement bureaucracy misfires. Efforts to fix the mess even led to calling in foreign experts (from the U.S., Israel, and other Western nations).

For example, three years ago India made arrangements with French engine manufacturer Snecma to provide technical assistance for the Kaveri design and manufacturing problems. Critics in the Indian air force asserted that help from Snecma would not save the ill-fated Kaveri program. But the government apparently believed that it was necessary for India to acquire the ability to design and build world class jet engines, whatever the cost. Only a few nations can do this and India wants to be one of them, soon, no matter what obstacles are encountered. Despite decades of effort, the Kaveri never quite made it to mass production. Now the government will continue funding development of jet engine design and manufacturing capability, but with some unspecified changes.

There is much to be learned from the Kaveri debacle. When work began on the Kaveri, in the mid-1980s, it was believed that the LCA would be ready for flight testing by 1990. A long list of technical delays put off that first flight until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen, for the LCA was originally designed to use the Indian built Kaveri engine and the engine was never ready.

Fortunately, there was an American engine, the GE F404 that fit the LCA and could be used as a stop-gap. The F414 is a more recent model of the F404 and has 15 percent more thrust. So from the beginning the Kaveri engine was “temporarily” replaced by the American F414.

This enabled work on the LCA to proceed. For example, last year the carrier version of the LCA made its first flight. With that out of the way, the Indian Navy is negotiating a deal with their American counterparts to help get the LCA-NP (the naval version of the LCA) ready for regular carrier use. The U.S. Navy has provided this sort of consulting service to India in the past. Although the Indian Navy has been operating jet aircraft from carriers since the 1960s, most of their recent experience is with verticaltake-off Harrier aircraft. The new Indian carriers will be more like their American counterparts and will operate carrier versions of land-based fighters. No navy has as much experience in this kind of carrier operations as the United States, and the Indians want to have their plans and preparations checked over by American carrier officers and technical experts. In this situation a little good advice can go a long way in avoiding expensive mistakes.

The LCA is only now beginning mass production and the first ones are to enter service later this year. Six prototypes and sixteen pre-production models already exist. For over two decades India has been trying to design, develop, andmanufacture its own "lightweight fighter" but the project has been a major disaster. It has, however, been a valuable and very expensive learning experience.

Meanwhile, the 1970s, era American F-16 is probably the premier "lightweight fighter" in service and began joining squadrons about the time India came up with the LCA project. Both the F-16 (at least the earlier models) and the LCA weigh about 12-13 tons. But the F-16 is a high performance aircraft, with a proven combat record, while the LCA is sort of an improved Mirage/MiG-21 type design. Not too shabby and cheap (about half the cost of an F-16). Also, for all this time, money, and grief India has made its aviation industry a bit more capable and mature.

For all this, India only plans to buy 200-300 LCAs, mainly to replace its aging MiG-21s, plus more if the navy finds the LCA works on carriers. Export prospects are dim, given all the competition out there (especially for cheap, second-hand F-16s). The delays have led the air force to look around for a hundred or so new aircraft (or even used F-16s) to fill the gap between elderly MiG-21s falling apart and the arrival of the new LCAs. However, two decades down the road the replacement for the LCA will probably be a more competitive and timely aircraft.

Four years ago the Indian Navy announced it was buying six of the new LCA fighters to operate from the new carriers that are to enter service in the next five years. This is an experiment to see how the LCA will do as a carrier aircraft. The first LCA carrier trials are to take place this year. The navy has already bought navalized MiG-29s for these carriers. The navy LCAs will also be navalized (mainly stronger landing gear, a tail hook, and different cockpit electronics). The MiG-29K weighs 21 tons (16 percent weapons), while the navalized LCA weighs 13 tons (34 percent of that weapons). The MiG-29 is a better fighter but the LCA carries a little more (4 versus 3.5 tons) armament, making it a cheaper way to attack ships or land targets with missiles and bombs.
-----------------------------------


Kaveri engine had a tendency to throw turbine blades, which is unfortunate if you are in a cockpit next to the engine and/or depending on it to keep you in the air. It also failed the high altitude tests and was too heavy for the Tejas aircraft. It also became a political issue due to the costs associated with developing the engine. Modern aircraft engines must meet extreme demands for performance.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Guys,

Can you please share your expert comments as why the IAF did not accept the Kaveri Engine?

As I was reading about Aero Engines, I got surprised to learn that Kaveri in fact had more thrust (both dry and after-burning!) than even Snecma M88 being used in Rafale which India is buying!

It was also flight tested in Russia for good amount of hours...the reason given for its failure was not being able to maintain the required level of thrust during high altitude tests!!

I am surprised or simply don't understand aero-dynamics but was the reason mentioned above the only reason for IAF to not to accept Kaveri for LCA? If so, how it worked out with Rafale then?

1. like all indian wepons it is a bit too heavy

2. has too many parts which increases workload for mantainence crews

3.doesnt have single crystal blade so has tendency to "throw" blades into turbine core when at very high tempratures

4.its core dosent have capacity to be efficient at tempratures above 1800 degree celcius when it needs to have cpacity to remain efficient even at tempratures in acsess of 2200 degree celcius (inside cumbustion core)

in short if indian sientists some how develop metallurgy/alloys for core that are not just light but can remain efficient in very high tempratures and single crystal blade same Kaveri engines that can produce 85 Kn now can easily achieve thrusts upto 95Kn+ and niether frenchies nor the russians or the europeans are ready to share that knowledge with us but if we make a deal with USA and mass produce there GE414EPE engines in india then USA is ready to share these techs with us and if we have these techs we can use these techs to produce any kind of high parformance gar turbine engiens in india

 

[JohnyD]

How did India master rocket technology, but fail to make a powerful gas turbine for fighter jets (failure of Kaveri engine)?

Suman Dutta


I will tell you that this is a completely baseless statement many of us make for comparison. Generally people keep on accusing DRDO for the failure or tell how lazy the organization is (previously I was also one of them)............why i am saying this cause it's true that India mastered the rocket technology but the core technology in rocket science is it's cryogenic stage which India tested on 5th January 2014. But the actual development of the engine started from 1982-86. It took more than 30 years to develop the engine by ISRO. Before this i don't know how many people actually believe that all the previous launches are based on Russian made cryogenic engines which Govt. of India purchased from Russia. Now come to the gas turbine engine which is a totally different concept from a cryogenic engine. Even the materials which are used in both the engines are totally different. The full scale development of Kaveri took place from 1989. The general development cycle of a first prototype engine from the drawing board will almost take 15-20 years even for companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing and so on. But it will also based on some perquisites like the type of the aircraft, the mission it will undergo, the condition under which the aircraft will fly, the range of the aircraft and most important is the design of the aircraft and it's dry weight. You can prepare an engine if the requirement is static but since technology is keep on developing and thus the requirement of the Indian armed forces so is the delay. Even for Indian conditions there is a problem with the engines cause normally there are two kinds of engines that are developed based on climate of an area. They are either in the hot category of engines or the cold once. The problem in India is if you are operating an aircraft from Ladakh airfield then you need a cold engine but if the aircraft is operated from Jaisalmer then it should be a hot engine. So you can think about the technology needed to make a variable type engine which will work in both kind of climate. Just simply think about it ??? I am not here to justify the delay from DRDO, i am just saying that from the beginning Indian govt. don't have the budget to fund the program like that of the US nor do we have the in-house expertise or industries in India. We have developed everything from the scratch. One more thing, the Kaveri was first developed to power a smaller 4th generation aircraft but with time, the demand of the armed forces keep on increasing from 4.5 to 5th generation. Developing a technology without any help and from the scratch is really a tough job which requires time, capital, state-of-the-art R&D facilities and high skilled labour force. Not a single thing is available to DRDO from the starting.

I think over ambitious objectives set for it was one of the reasons for its so called failure!

 

[Chanakyaa]

It failed high altitude tests.
Howver the kaveri program was like, you wanted to get in top 10 but landed with a rank of 250.

Several key technologies were developed. The Engine Did work but never produced the desired results.
Seems, the core is unstable.

 

[Maarkhoor]

I think over ambitious objectives set for it was one of the reasons for its so called failure!

Main reason trying to develop from scratch not a good idea it will consume lot of time and money and would be catastrophic when you trying to develop it first time. Best thing joint venture initially Indian tries this but after sanctions they have no option left and the big betrayal is from Russia who refuses TOT and support infrastructure development.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Main reason trying to develop from scratch not a good idea it will consume lot of time and money and would be catastrophic when you trying to develop it first time. Best thing joint venture initially Indian tries this but after sanctions they have no option left and the big betrayal is from Russia who refuses TOT and support infrastructure development.

True. Not everyone has Friends giving Nuke Designs for Free !

 

[Skull and Bones]

Main reason trying to develop from scratch not a good idea it will consume lot of time and money and would be catastrophic when you trying to develop it first time. Best thing joint venture initially Indian tries this but after sanctions they have no option left and the big betrayal is from Russia who refuses TOT and support infrastructure development.

Back then, no one was willing to share technology with India. So going solo was the only way around.

 

[Maarkhoor]

True. Not everyone has Friends giving Nuke Designs for Free !

But .... friend is denying even for money Such a shame for those.

 

[JohnyD]

Main reason trying to develop from scratch not a good idea it will consume lot of time and money and would be catastrophic when you trying to develop it first time. Best thing joint venture initially Indian tries this but after sanctions they have no option left and the big betrayal is from Russia who refuses TOT and support infrastructure development.

Unfortunately, India didnt have the test facility/infrastructure to test the engine....Its a typical problem in India, we first build housing colonies, IT Parks and then we realize we dont have the required infra to get to those places!

 

[INDIAISM]

Let me tell you in simple words..... We need to invest more in Metallurgy sector...

 

[JohnyD]

Let me tell you in simple words..... We need to invest more in Metallurgy....

IITs don't have technical expertise in Metallurgy domain?

 

[calmDown@all]

Crystal blade and super alloys was the main reason.
We mainly failed in crystal growing (that's why radome of LCA was in composite, it was inefficient).
-Kaveri was well designed engine, where the weight to thrust ratio varied due to super alloys and blades in engine

-Some cycle tuning for Hot air,mainly the blade rotations to reduce the inlet air temperature, and slight chamber modifications.

The main deal for the MMRCA and purpose was crystal blades from snecma -M88.

Still DMRL was trying to achieve the perfect crystal blade.
Below are some images (source-livefist defence)

jet engine technology is one of the most advanced and secretively kept by people those have mastered it (patents and etc).seriously it takes generation to master the jet engine

it is combination of various field mechanical , metallurgy , etc

so it does not means that perfection in one field will do it .

The Kaveri Engine Project was sanctioned with the following basic objectives:
1) Designing and developing the GTX-35 engine to meet the specific needs of the LCA.
2) To create a full fledged indigenous base to design and develop any advanced technology engine for future military aviation programmes.
3) The engine so developed was to establish its performance integrity in various categories of tests prescribed by the aero-engine industry world over.
Well first-of-all, it’s erroneous to assume Kaveri (or GTX-35 VS) is the absolute first turbojet/turbofan to be designed/developed from the ground up (from scratch) by GTRE – it’s not. In fact Kaveri is not at all a “from the scratch” development in the first place – it more of an upgrade.

It’s predecessors were GTX-37 U (turbojet) -> GTX-37 UB (it’s turbofan version) -> GTX-35 (enhanced turbojet based on 37U tech). And Kaveri (or GTX-35 VS) is more of an upgrade of GTX-35 (same core etc.). The following schematic depicts the Kaveri lineage: