what was wrong with Kaveri Engine?

[calmDown@all]

How did India master rocket technology, but fail to make a powerful gas turbine for fighter jets (failure of Kaveri engine)?

Suman Dutta


I will tell you that this is a completely baseless statement many of us make for comparison. Generally people keep on accusing DRDO for the failure or tell how lazy the organization is (previously I was also one of them)............why i am saying this cause it's true that India mastered the rocket technology but the core technology in rocket science is it's cryogenic stage which India tested on 5th January 2014. But the actual development of the engine started from 1982-86. It took more than 30 years to develop the engine by ISRO. Before this i don't know how many people actually believe that all the previous launches are based on Russian made cryogenic engines which Govt. of India purchased from Russia. Now come to the gas turbine engine which is a totally different concept from a cryogenic engine. Even the materials which are used in both the engines are totally different. The full scale development of Kaveri took place from 1989. The general development cycle of a first prototype engine from the drawing board will almost take 15-20 years even for companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing and so on. But it will also based on some perquisites like the type of the aircraft, the mission it will undergo, the condition under which the aircraft will fly, the range of the aircraft and most important is the design of the aircraft and it's dry weight. You can prepare an engine if the requirement is static but since technology is keep on developing and thus the requirement of the Indian armed forces so is the delay. Even for Indian conditions there is a problem with the engines cause normally there are two kinds of engines that are developed based on climate of an area. They are either in the hot category of engines or the cold once. The problem in India is if you are operating an aircraft from Ladakh airfield then you need a cold engine but if the aircraft is operated from Jaisalmer then it should be a hot engine. So you can think about the technology needed to make a variable type engine which will work in both kind of climate. Just simply think about it ??? I am not here to justify the delay from DRDO, i am just saying that from the beginning Indian govt. don't have the budget to fund the program like that of the US nor do we have the in-house expertise or industries in India. We have developed everything from the scratch. One more thing, the Kaveri was first developed to power a smaller 4th generation aircraft but with time, the demand of the armed forces keep on increasing from 4.5 to 5th generation. Developing a technology without any help and from the scratch is really a tough job which requires time, capital, state-of-the-art R&D facilities and high skilled labour force. Not a single thing is available to DRDO from the starting.

qora pe kabse ho app?

 

[zebra7]

Here is what I got from the Bharat rakshak

Ok.... this is the GTRE story - (someone come up with sad music plz).... from the Aeroseminar.

An overview of the Kaveri situation was provided by the GTRE director, T. Mohan Rao, who was accompanied by his senior scientists. The hall was packed, and the language and tone of his speech was sadly self-depracating and pleading. Almost as if DRDO has also started losing faith - he had to explain whats going on and why its happening. Sad to see, but there are clear silver linings in the story.

1. He pointed out that the change in IAF requirements and the increase in all up wt by 2 tons killed the Kaveri as they knew it, simply because it could not in any way be able to achieve the new requirements... he was quite angry that they had been blamed for what was obviously not their fault, ie, a low-performing Kaveri for the updated reqs. Bypass Ratio is 0.16 to 0.18... he pointed out that if it had to meet the new stds, the bypass would have to be at least 0.35 to 0.45.

2. 4 Cores and 8 Kaveris built, 1800 hrs testing done.

Thrsut demonstrated: 4774 kgf dry (design value reached). 7000 kgf reheat (2.5-3% shortfall)

3. Pressure ratio - 21.5 overall.

Fan - 3 stage, 3.4 pressure ratio, Surge margin>20.
Compressor 6.4 pressure,Surge>23.
Combustor - efficiency >99%, high intensity annular combustor. Pattern factor of 0.35 and 0.14

Note: These are ACHIEVED values.

4. The present Kaveri will not power combat LCAs, although it will be fitted to an LCA within 9 months. The new program, which is the Kaveri with Snecma Eco core of 90kN will be used. The preslim design studies and configuration have beeen completed.

5.Birdhit requirements of 85% thrust after hit at 0.4-0.5 Mach have been shown and achieved.

6. He pointed out the major factor in delays being them not being given enough infrastructure and testing facilities - Govt has not given funds, babus have sat on them. Instead, they have had to go to CIAM in Russia and Anecom in Germany for tests.

He mentioned that this was the biggest problem - one of the issues they have was in engine strain and the blade throws - they tried to isolate all the causes for 3 yrs, but only when they took it to CIAM for the Non Intrusive Strain Measurement (NSMS) tests did they realize that there were excess vibrations of the 3rd order of engine frequency being developed.... imagine if the facility was there in india.

Then, the compressor tests also, it was only at the Anecom that they could see that the 1st 2 stages were surged by 20%, while the rest were "as dead as government servants" (his quote - shows how low on confidence they are i guess). He pointed out that that would have saved a lot of time and money if that facility was in india. They have since fixed the issue.

Then, the afterburner tests, (the much highlighted high altitude failure) at CIAM - the reqt is for 50% thrust boost over dry thrust at 88% efficiency. The K5 prototype failed in 2003, after working perfectly in the GTRE. They realized that they could not achieve lightup at high altitudes (Dry thrust worked ok).

They took anothe new engine block and the afterburner worked perfectly and has been certified to 15 km.

7. The good news..... they will conduct complete engine trials in CIAM in March. If these trials are successful (and they are highly confident), the Kaveri will be integrated on the LCA within 9 months.

The KADECU FADEC system with manual backup has also been fully certified.

8. The bad news again - The present requirements would need the core to pump out 15-20% more power, which is impossible... hence the eco. Not that there is anything wrong with the core.

He mentioned that otherwise, the Kaveri has met the original requirements, or will meet within the next month, and is good for all other uses except a "combat LCA" - ie, CAT, LIFT, LCA Trainer, etc.

9. When asked where we lack, he mentioned 4 key areas

a. BLISK - integrated single Blade and Disk
b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation. A talk on this by an American Indian prof attracted a house full audience. He mentioned that this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.

The last two points were mentioned by Dir, DMRL as one of their areas of research, but I was not able to quiz him on it. PLEASE QUIZ ANY DMRL GUYS U MEET ON THIS.

Mohan Rao appealed that people should realize that this tech takes time, and money, and more importantly, willpower and support.... its not being given by foriegn nations, so if we have to develop, it needs support. This stance found strong support from Saraswat, Sundaram and Selvamurthy in the closing ceremony.

They are not looking at TVC just yet, and it is in the hands of other labs at the moment.

However, the ADE presentation on UCAVs showed a future Indian UCAV (2015) with no tail (MCA design), a non-conventional wingform, and a 3 axis TVC.

10. OK, some nos....

Fan - Successful tests at CIAM
Compressor: (nos in brackets are design values)

6 stage axial flow, 3 stage variable vanes with IGVs.
Corr. tip speed ~370 m/s
Inlet diam: 590 mm

Mass flow: 24.13 kg/s (24.3)
Pressure: 6.42 (6.38)
Efficiency: 85.4% (85%)
Surge %: 21.6 (20% designed)

Combustor:
Has undergone aero testing at CIAM
K8 V4 combustor is close to design.

Turbine:
Pressure = 3.6
Mass flow function= 1.1
Isentropic eff = 85%
Max. TET = 1700K

Is a success, has met design.

11. Future uses:

Navy - KMGT - 1 MW for small ships being developed, 5-6 MW KMGT is a sucess and runs on Diesel, instead of the usual kerosene aviation fuel.

The railways also wants a 7-8MW CNG run engine, which will be a challenge in terms of fuel supply, rather than teh combustion itself, which shouldn't be a problem.


Any qns???

qora pe kabse ho app?

Google marenge to quora result samne hoga LOLZ

 

[calmDown@all]

Any qns???

Google marenge to quora result samne hoga LOLZ

 

[Providence]

Here is what I got from the Bharat rakshak

Ok.... this is the GTRE story - (someone come up with sad music plz).... from the Aeroseminar.

An overview of the Kaveri situation was provided by the GTRE director, T. Mohan Rao, who was accompanied by his senior scientists. The hall was packed, and the language and tone of his speech was sadly self-depracating and pleading. Almost as if DRDO has also started losing faith - he had to explain whats going on and why its happening. Sad to see, but there are clear silver linings in the story.

1. He pointed out that the change in IAF requirements and the increase in all up wt by 2 tons killed the Kaveri as they knew it, simply because it could not in any way be able to achieve the new requirements... he was quite angry that they had been blamed for what was obviously not their fault, ie, a low-performing Kaveri for the updated reqs. Bypass Ratio is 0.16 to 0.18... he pointed out that if it had to meet the new stds, the bypass would have to be at least 0.35 to 0.45.

2. 4 Cores and 8 Kaveris built, 1800 hrs testing done.

Thrsut demonstrated: 4774 kgf dry (design value reached). 7000 kgf reheat (2.5-3% shortfall)

3. Pressure ratio - 21.5 overall.

Fan - 3 stage, 3.4 pressure ratio, Surge margin>20.
Compressor 6.4 pressure,Surge>23.
Combustor - efficiency >99%, high intensity annular combustor. Pattern factor of 0.35 and 0.14

Note: These are ACHIEVED values.

4. The present Kaveri will not power combat LCAs, although it will be fitted to an LCA within 9 months. The new program, which is the Kaveri with Snecma Eco core of 90kN will be used. The preslim design studies and configuration have beeen completed.

5.Birdhit requirements of 85% thrust after hit at 0.4-0.5 Mach have been shown and achieved.

6. He pointed out the major factor in delays being them not being given enough infrastructure and testing facilities - Govt has not given funds, babus have sat on them. Instead, they have had to go to CIAM in Russia and Anecom in Germany for tests.

He mentioned that this was the biggest problem - one of the issues they have was in engine strain and the blade throws - they tried to isolate all the causes for 3 yrs, but only when they took it to CIAM for the Non Intrusive Strain Measurement (NSMS) tests did they realize that there were excess vibrations of the 3rd order of engine frequency being developed.... imagine if the facility was there in india.

Then, the compressor tests also, it was only at the Anecom that they could see that the 1st 2 stages were surged by 20%, while the rest were "as dead as government servants" (his quote - shows how low on confidence they are i guess). He pointed out that that would have saved a lot of time and money if that facility was in india. They have since fixed the issue.

Then, the afterburner tests, (the much highlighted high altitude failure) at CIAM - the reqt is for 50% thrust boost over dry thrust at 88% efficiency. The K5 prototype failed in 2003, after working perfectly in the GTRE. They realized that they could not achieve lightup at high altitudes (Dry thrust worked ok).

They took anothe new engine block and the afterburner worked perfectly and has been certified to 15 km.

7. The good news..... they will conduct complete engine trials in CIAM in March. If these trials are successful (and they are highly confident), the Kaveri will be integrated on the LCA within 9 months.

The KADECU FADEC system with manual backup has also been fully certified.

8. The bad news again - The present requirements would need the core to pump out 15-20% more power, which is impossible... hence the eco. Not that there is anything wrong with the core.

He mentioned that otherwise, the Kaveri has met the original requirements, or will meet within the next month, and is good for all other uses except a "combat LCA" - ie, CAT, LIFT, LCA Trainer, etc.

9. When asked where we lack, he mentioned 4 key areas

a. BLISK - integrated single Blade and Disk
b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation. A talk on this by an American Indian prof attracted a house full audience. He mentioned that this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.

The last two points were mentioned by Dir, DMRL as one of their areas of research, but I was not able to quiz him on it. PLEASE QUIZ ANY DMRL GUYS U MEET ON THIS.

Mohan Rao appealed that people should realize that this tech takes time, and money, and more importantly, willpower and support.... its not being given by foriegn nations, so if we have to develop, it needs support. This stance found strong support from Saraswat, Sundaram and Selvamurthy in the closing ceremony.

They are not looking at TVC just yet, and it is in the hands of other labs at the moment.

However, the ADE presentation on UCAVs showed a future Indian UCAV (2015) with no tail (MCA design), a non-conventional wingform, and a 3 axis TVC.

10. OK, some nos....

Fan - Successful tests at CIAM
Compressor: (nos in brackets are design values)

6 stage axial flow, 3 stage variable vanes with IGVs.
Corr. tip speed ~370 m/s
Inlet diam: 590 mm

Mass flow: 24.13 kg/s (24.3)
Pressure: 6.42 (6.38)
Efficiency: 85.4% (85%)
Surge %: 21.6 (20% designed)

Combustor:
Has undergone aero testing at CIAM
K8 V4 combustor is close to design.

Turbine:
Pressure = 3.6
Mass flow function= 1.1
Isentropic eff = 85%
Max. TET = 1700K

Is a success, has met design.

11. Future uses:

Navy - KMGT - 1 MW for small ships being developed, 5-6 MW KMGT is a sucess and runs on Diesel, instead of the usual kerosene aviation fuel.

The railways also wants a 7-8MW CNG run engine, which will be a challenge in terms of fuel supply, rather than teh combustion itself, which shouldn't be a problem.


Any qns???


Google marenge to quora result samne hoga LOLZ

In light of these claims, now can some one please be so kind and teach me all possible meanings of "ToT" and it's benefits ? ( I guess India had ToT of the saturn engine powering mki ? )

 

[dy1022]

LCA,Arjun,Insas,Kaveri, find me one from them isn't failed!

 

[Kinetic]

But .... friend is denying even for money Such a shame for those.

Because that is called money/business. Not giving out everything like you for so called friendship. Wht you didn't do for US, Saudis, Uae AND China for those free weapons.

 

[sharma1111]

LCA,Arjun,Insas,Kaveri, find me one from them isn't failed!

Chinese products are defacto cheap and failed. We dont expect quality from you guys.
Stop trolling this thread or we will report it to mod

@zebra7

As per your post: Kaveri achieved dry thrust: 47 KN and 69 KN of wet thrust. what about the latest vrsion??

 

[thesolar65]

Here is what I got from the Bharat rakshak

Ok.... this is the GTRE story - (someone come up with sad music plz).... from the Aeroseminar.

An overview of the Kaveri situation was provided by the GTRE director, T. Mohan Rao, who was accompanied by his senior scientists. The hall was packed, and the language and tone of his speech was sadly self-depracating and pleading. Almost as if DRDO has also started losing faith - he had to explain whats going on and why its happening. Sad to see, but there are clear silver linings in the story.

1. He pointed out that the change in IAF requirements and the increase in all up wt by 2 tons killed the Kaveri as they knew it, simply because it could not in any way be able to achieve the new requirements... he was quite angry that they had been blamed for what was obviously not their fault, ie, a low-performing Kaveri for the updated reqs. Bypass Ratio is 0.16 to 0.18... he pointed out that if it had to meet the new stds, the bypass would have to be at least 0.35 to 0.45.

2. 4 Cores and 8 Kaveris built, 1800 hrs testing done.

Thrsut demonstrated: 4774 kgf dry (design value reached). 7000 kgf reheat (2.5-3% shortfall)

3. Pressure ratio - 21.5 overall.

Fan - 3 stage, 3.4 pressure ratio, Surge margin>20.
Compressor 6.4 pressure,Surge>23.
Combustor - efficiency >99%, high intensity annular combustor. Pattern factor of 0.35 and 0.14

Note: These are ACHIEVED values.

4. The present Kaveri will not power combat LCAs, although it will be fitted to an LCA within 9 months. The new program, which is the Kaveri with Snecma Eco core of 90kN will be used. The preslim design studies and configuration have beeen completed.

5.Birdhit requirements of 85% thrust after hit at 0.4-0.5 Mach have been shown and achieved.

6. He pointed out the major factor in delays being them not being given enough infrastructure and testing facilities - Govt has not given funds, babus have sat on them. Instead, they have had to go to CIAM in Russia and Anecom in Germany for tests.

He mentioned that this was the biggest problem - one of the issues they have was in engine strain and the blade throws - they tried to isolate all the causes for 3 yrs, but only when they took it to CIAM for the Non Intrusive Strain Measurement (NSMS) tests did they realize that there were excess vibrations of the 3rd order of engine frequency being developed.... imagine if the facility was there in india.

Then, the compressor tests also, it was only at the Anecom that they could see that the 1st 2 stages were surged by 20%, while the rest were "as dead as government servants" (his quote - shows how low on confidence they are i guess). He pointed out that that would have saved a lot of time and money if that facility was in india. They have since fixed the issue.

Then, the afterburner tests, (the much highlighted high altitude failure) at CIAM - the reqt is for 50% thrust boost over dry thrust at 88% efficiency. The K5 prototype failed in 2003, after working perfectly in the GTRE. They realized that they could not achieve lightup at high altitudes (Dry thrust worked ok).

They took anothe new engine block and the afterburner worked perfectly and has been certified to 15 km.

7. The good news..... they will conduct complete engine trials in CIAM in March. If these trials are successful (and they are highly confident), the Kaveri will be integrated on the LCA within 9 months.

The KADECU FADEC system with manual backup has also been fully certified.

8. The bad news again - The present requirements would need the core to pump out 15-20% more power, which is impossible... hence the eco. Not that there is anything wrong with the core.

He mentioned that otherwise, the Kaveri has met the original requirements, or will meet within the next month, and is good for all other uses except a "combat LCA" - ie, CAT, LIFT, LCA Trainer, etc.

9. When asked where we lack, he mentioned 4 key areas

a. BLISK - integrated single Blade and Disk
b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation. A talk on this by an American Indian prof attracted a house full audience. He mentioned that this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.

The last two points were mentioned by Dir, DMRL as one of their areas of research, but I was not able to quiz him on it. PLEASE QUIZ ANY DMRL GUYS U MEET ON THIS.

Mohan Rao appealed that people should realize that this tech takes time, and money, and more importantly, willpower and support.... its not being given by foriegn nations, so if we have to develop, it needs support. This stance found strong support from Saraswat, Sundaram and Selvamurthy in the closing ceremony.

They are not looking at TVC just yet, and it is in the hands of other labs at the moment.

However, the ADE presentation on UCAVs showed a future Indian UCAV (2015) with no tail (MCA design), a non-conventional wingform, and a 3 axis TVC.

10. OK, some nos....

Fan - Successful tests at CIAM
Compressor: (nos in brackets are design values)

6 stage axial flow, 3 stage variable vanes with IGVs.
Corr. tip speed ~370 m/s
Inlet diam: 590 mm

Mass flow: 24.13 kg/s (24.3)
Pressure: 6.42 (6.38)
Efficiency: 85.4% (85%)
Surge %: 21.6 (20% designed)

Combustor:
Has undergone aero testing at CIAM
K8 V4 combustor is close to design.

Turbine:
Pressure = 3.6
Mass flow function= 1.1
Isentropic eff = 85%
Max. TET = 1700K

Is a success, has met design.

11. Future uses:

Navy - KMGT - 1 MW for small ships being developed, 5-6 MW KMGT is a sucess and runs on Diesel, instead of the usual kerosene aviation fuel.

The railways also wants a 7-8MW CNG run engine, which will be a challenge in terms of fuel supply, rather than teh combustion itself, which shouldn't be a problem.


Any qns???

Quite informative. I hope they do not kill it, but start afresh on a new design. BTW any guess as on to which test LCA the first Kaveri will be fitted TD or PV version?

 

[zebra7]

In light of these claims, now can some one please be so kind and teach me all possible meanings of "ToT" and it's benefits ? ( I guess India had ToT of the saturn engine powering mki ? )

What does TOT means it means transfer of technology. i.e transfer of technology to manufacture not the technology to master the designing of engine making.

ToT is loosely termed and understand, the tot does not means that they OEM will explain how this happens and not why this happens.

Chinese products are defacto cheap and failed. We dont expect quality from you guys.
Stop trolling this thread or we will report it to mod

@zebra7

As per your post: Kaveri achieved dry thrust: 47 KN and 69 KN of wet thrust. what about the latest vrsion??

according to this link of 2008

In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline - Livemint

Mohana Rao: We have a functional engine, but there is a slight shortfall in performance. It has achieved dry thrust of 4,600kg and reheat thrust of 7,000kg in Bangalore, which is around 3,000ft above sea level. So, it would be around 5,000kg dry thrust and 7,500kg reheat thrust at sea level. The engine is short of thrust by 400kg and overweight by around 150kg. Also, we still have to perform long- endurance tests of the engine to run for many hours.

So In short

We will have to try, fail, try again, fail again, try again and learn it the hard way.

There’s absolutely no other way.

Quite informative. I hope they do not kill it, but start afresh on a new design. BTW any guess as on to which test LCA the first Kaveri will be fitted TD or PV version?

Kaveri have been delinked from LCA program. As per my knowledge GTRE have asked for one TD LCA for aerial test bed, but have been denied. So they should test some other test bed. Better if GOI could give the country one old AL-31 as a test bed with aerial equipments, for the speedy development.

 

[Rangila]

LCA,Arjun,Insas,Kaveri, find me one from them isn't failed!

Oh my!
Here cometh the Chinese chef with the soup of the day!

And the latest for you!

Bottles of fresh air from Canada for polluted China!

 

[TopCat]

Hmmm Made in India by Indians?

 

[zebra7]

LCA,Arjun,Insas,Kaveri, find me one from them isn't failed!

Mamoo where are you from ? China are you deprived of Internet

1. LCA -- 120 LCA have been order by IAF
2. Arjun -MK1 have been ordered and 2 regiments are equipped, and MK-2 is going on trial.
3. Insas -- is the main standard battle riffle of Indian army, and have actively used in Kargil war, and have been exported to other nations including Nepal and Bhutan and Oman.
4. Kaveri is only delinked from LCA project, not cancelled, and based on Kaveri indegenous engine will power Indian futuristing UAV AURA

 

[HariPrasad]

Kaveri is a very good engine and it has exceeded his design Parameter in Dry thrust by almost 2%. The real issue is wet thrust. We are unable to pass required quantity of air through the engine which restricts the designed wet thrust to about 85 to 90% of design parameter. The reason being perhaps our inability to make required quality of crystal blade which can withstand the required temperature and pressure of running the engine on its design load. I thing we need a compression ratio of 27:1 to 30:1 like Ge 404 and GE414. In Kaveri , it is restricted to 22:1. One more technological boost an we will get a working engine

 

[zebra7]

The following list is maybe a bit dated info (around 2002-04), but to get a fair idea on the spread of help-being-requested by GTRE, here's a list of agencies approached by them for various consultative help:

MTU, Germany
1. Over speed & Burst Margin Test on K6HP Turbine Rotor Assembly
2. Over speed & Burst Margin Test on K6LP Turbine Rotor Assembly

Russia
Via 'Rosoboronexport"
1. Exploratory Altitude Testing of Kaveri Engine
2. Exploratory Altitude Testing of Kaveri Engine
3. Fan Casing Containment Test for Kaveri Engine
4. Testing for Main Combustor at Sea level and Altitude conditions

Via Gromov Flight Research Institute
1. Technical services for Kaveri Engine

Test Devices INC, USA
1. Over speed & Burst margin test on K6HPC Rotor assembly
2. Over speed & burst margin test on K6 Fan Rotor assembly
3. Design, Analysis, Testing & Optimization of Damper for the LP Turbine Rotor Blade

Belgium
1. Dynamic Analysis under Blade off condition of Kaveri engine

Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., UK
1. Dynamic Analysis under Blade off condition of Kaveri engine
2. Consultancy for Reheat System Design Review/Audit
3. Consultancy for HP Turbine Risk Analysis/Review
4. Consultancy for Weight Reduction Study
5. Consultancy for Thermal and Hydraulic Modelling of Kaveri Lubrication System
6. Consultancy for Kaveri Fan Aerodynamic and Mechanical Design Review/Audit and enhancement.
7. Consultancy for Critical Design Review of the Kaveri Engine Project
8. Consultancy for Accelerated Simulated Mission Endurance Test (ASMET) Cycle and test schedule definition and development programme integration.
9. Consultancy for Kaveri Integrated Test, Development and Procurement programmes
10. Consultancy for Kaveri PFRT Fan Aerodynamic Design 3D Blade-to-Blade and Viscous Analysis
11. Consultancy for Kaveri K4 Build 06 HP Compressor Blade Stage 1 Failure Investigation and Follow-up
12. Consultancy for Review and Proposal for the Resolution of Vibration Problems in the Kaveri Engine
13. Consultancy for Design Review and Audit of High Temperature High Pressure Heat Transfer Rig
14. Consultancy for Kaveri K5 & K8 Compressor Blade Stage I vibration & Rub Investigation Problems in the Kaveri Engine

But the point I'm trying to make is, if you look closely at this list, most of these help were in the form of consultative support for design validation, issue/failure confirmation and the required resolution approach - plus of course help in testing various aspects of a turbofan.

Rarely will you find some help in the form of a major turbofan component/system being put forward.

In fact, it's not that GTRE were not aware of the challenges on the compressor and turbine design and manufacturing aspects, in an ab-initio programme like this. But they were also aware that stuff like Turbine (both HPT and LPT) Blades and Discs, the very heart (and thus most difficult and riskiest aspect) of a turbofan will not be available from anybody. So the whole focus was on them while they wanted the relatively non-strategic compressor stages (at least the fan stages) be imported from Germany (IIRC from MTU) - i.e. they wanted to do the design of the fan blades and wanted MTU to manufacture them.

End result was that it was denied first with reasoning that GTRE's design was just too complicated for them to manufacture - and when GTRE simplified the blade design (to a lesser efficient one) , then the reasoning was that the volume being these being asked is commercially non-viable to be manufactured. GTRE was then forced to manufacture it and most probably was forced to settle with a further sub-optimal compressor design as the design had to match with the indigenous manufacturing capability available then with them.

So morale of the story is, collaborate we must but when it comes to the cutting-edge turbofan-core design and manufacturing technology capability building, we were basically on our own.

 

[911]

1. like all indian wepons it is a bit too heavy

2. has too many parts which increases workload for mantainence crews

3.doesnt have single crystal blade so has tendency to "throw" blades into turbine core when at very high tempratures

4.its core dosent have capacity to be efficient at tempratures above 1800 degree celcius when it needs to have cpacity to remain efficient even at tempratures in acsess of 2200 degree celcius (inside cumbustion core)

in short if indian sientists some how develop metallurgy/alloys for core that are not just light but can remain efficient in very high tempratures and single crystal blade same Kaveri engines that can produce 85 Kn now can easily achieve thrusts upto 95Kn+ and niether frenchies nor the russians or the europeans are ready to share that knowledge with us but if we make a deal with USA and mass produce there GE414EPE engines in india then USA is ready to share these techs with us and if we have these techs we can use these techs to produce any kind of high parformance gar turbine engiens in india

That why we need R&D in not only in complex technology but also in basic Chemistry and even Biology.