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what was wrong with Kaveri Engine?

That why we need R&D in not only in complex technology but also in basic Chemistry and even Biology.
from where did biology come into matters regarding advance metallurgy and crysatl technology :what: :laughcry:

thing is USA, France , UK & Russia mastered this art after making thousands of engines over last 75 years that too after counless R&D hours and billions of $$S wasted/invested it will be foolish to think india will get that tech on platter we have to do whatever it takes to achieve this like :

1. keep working on owr own engine

2. trying to get as much as TOT possible

3.using internation black market

4.international industrail espionage
 
The following list is maybe a bit dated info (around 2002-04), but to get a fair idea on the spread of help-being-requested by GTRE, here's a list of agencies approached by them for various consultative help:

MTU, Germany
1. Over speed & Burst Margin Test on K6HP Turbine Rotor Assembly
2. Over speed & Burst Margin Test on K6LP Turbine Rotor Assembly

Russia
Via 'Rosoboronexport"

1. Exploratory Altitude Testing of Kaveri Engine
2. Exploratory Altitude Testing of Kaveri Engine
3. Fan Casing Containment Test for Kaveri Engine
4. Testing for Main Combustor at Sea level and Altitude conditions

Via Gromov Flight Research Institute
1. Technical services for Kaveri Engine

Test Devices INC, USA
1. Over speed & Burst margin test on K6HPC Rotor assembly
2. Over speed & burst margin test on K6 Fan Rotor assembly
3. Design, Analysis, Testing & Optimization of Damper for the LP Turbine Rotor Blade

Belgium
1. Dynamic Analysis under Blade off condition of Kaveri engine

Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., UK
1. Dynamic Analysis under Blade off condition of Kaveri engine
2. Consultancy for Reheat System Design Review/Audit
3. Consultancy for HP Turbine Risk Analysis/Review
4. Consultancy for Weight Reduction Study
5. Consultancy for Thermal and Hydraulic Modelling of Kaveri Lubrication System
6. Consultancy for Kaveri Fan Aerodynamic and Mechanical Design Review/Audit and enhancement.
7. Consultancy for Critical Design Review of the Kaveri Engine Project
8. Consultancy for Accelerated Simulated Mission Endurance Test (ASMET) Cycle and test schedule definition and development programme integration.
9. Consultancy for Kaveri Integrated Test, Development and Procurement programmes
10. Consultancy for Kaveri PFRT Fan Aerodynamic Design 3D Blade-to-Blade and Viscous Analysis
11. Consultancy for Kaveri K4 Build 06 HP Compressor Blade Stage 1 Failure Investigation and Follow-up
12. Consultancy for Review and Proposal for the Resolution of Vibration Problems in the Kaveri Engine
13. Consultancy for Design Review and Audit of High Temperature High Pressure Heat Transfer Rig
14. Consultancy for Kaveri K5 & K8 Compressor Blade Stage I vibration & Rub Investigation Problems in the Kaveri Engine

But the point I'm trying to make is, if you look closely at this list, most of these help were in the form of consultative support for design validation, issue/failure confirmation and the required resolution approach - plus of course help in testing various aspects of a turbofan.

Rarely will you find some help in the form of a major turbofan component/system being put forward.

In fact, it's not that GTRE were not aware of the challenges on the compressor and turbine design and manufacturing aspects, in an ab-initio programme like this. But they were also aware that stuff like Turbine (both HPT and LPT) Blades and Discs, the very heart (and thus most difficult and riskiest aspect) of a turbofan will not be available from anybody. So the whole focus was on them while they wanted the relatively non-strategic compressor stages (at least the fan stages) be imported from Germany (IIRC from MTU) - i.e. they wanted to do the design of the fan blades and wanted MTU to manufacture them.

End result was that it was denied first with reasoning that GTRE's design was just too complicated for them to manufacture - and when GTRE simplified the blade design (to a lesser efficient one) , then the reasoning was that the volume being these being asked is commercially non-viable to be manufactured. GTRE was then forced to manufacture it and most probably was forced to settle with a further sub-optimal compressor design as the design had to match with the indigenous manufacturing capability available then with them.

So morale of the story is, collaborate we must but when it comes to the cutting-edge turbofan-core design and manufacturing technology capability building, we were basically on our own.
Good information brother.
 
Kia masla hai kaveri ko batao :laughcry:

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If we wanna succeed in future we need to learn the art of distributing the research work. Involve other R&D institutions such as IISC ,IITs and private research labs.

More minds are needed for out of the box solutions. I still believe we can achieve any thing but we need clear vision and future objectives to way forward.
 
Kaveri have been delinked from LCA program. As per my knowledge GTRE have asked for one TD LCA for aerial test bed, but have been denied. So they should test some other test bed. Better if GOI could give the country one old AL-31 as a test bed with aerial equipments, for the speedy development.

AL-31 is a test bed, means only for ground test. I think LCA TD was denied for the fear of being crashing which may trigger a refusal for LCA by vested interest persons. Now there are many planes world wide which gets decommissioned or not being used. GTRE can seek permission from Govt. to approach those Airforce or Govt. to get one or two of those planes in which Kaveri can be fitted??
 
AL-31 is a test bed, means only for ground test. I think LCA TD was denied for the fear of being crashing which may trigger a refusal for LCA by vested interest persons. Now there are many planes world wide which gets decommissioned or not being used. GTRE can seek permission from Govt. to approach those Airforce or Govt. to get one or two of those planes in which Kaveri can be fitted??

Aerial test bed is needed in a country, because you cannot run with your engine for testing, taking their time/oppoinment, paying money, and relying on their instrumental readings.
 
Aerial test bed is needed in a country, because you cannot run with your engine for testing, taking their time/oppoinment, paying money, and relying on their instrumental readings.

Right, but after that Aerial test is required, isn't it?
 
HAL propels fortunes of Koraput Engine Division with gen-next projects - Oneindia

The Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has put the Engine Division in Koraput on spotlight with funds and new ideas being made available on priority basis. During a recent visit to the division situated at Sunabeda (Koraput district in Odisha and 180 km from Visakhapatnam), OneIndia was given access to some of the state-of-the-art facilities.

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Set up in 1964, the division completed 50 years recently with the Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha wanting it to emerge as the ‘aero engine capital of India.' Echoing his thoughts was G C Pati, Chief Secretary, Odisha, who wanted the division to further enhance indigenous capabilities in aeronautical sector.

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A handout given by HAL says that the division has a total workforce of 3775 employees, comprising of 2945 workmen and 830 executives.

Massive investments projected for the next 5 years Speaking to OneIndia, Maloy De, General Manager (Koraput) said that the renewed thrust shown by the HAL top management in the recent years has rejuvenated the workforce. "In the last 50 years, we have manufactured 1574 engines and overhauled 7417 engines. We have achieved a turnover of around Rs 1579 core during the financial year 2013-14," De said. The division plans an investment to the tune of over Rs 4500 crore in the next five years and the targeted growth plan by 2010 is Rs 3341 crore.

Since inception, the division has manufactured and overhauled R-25, R-29B, RD-33 and AL-31FP engines to power the MiG-21 series, MiG-27M, MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI aircraft.

hal-propels-fortunes-koraput-engine-division-with-gen-next-projects-1590744.html
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The division has also set up a test bed for AL-55I engines for the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT).

It has already established a facility for production of single crystal blades for Sukhois, which can further support India's missile and unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) programmes. Ingenious efforts on for overhauling MiG 29 engines The division has been on the threshold of successfully launching home-grown solutions while overhauling the RD-33 (Series-3) engines of MiG 29 fighters. "There was no ToT (transfer of technology) with Russians for six uncommon aggregators (accessories) of the RD-33 (Series-3) engines.

The ToT was getting delayed as the Russians were demanding additional funds. The ToT would have come only by 2016, prompting us to initiate the indigenous programme," says Arup Chatterjee, Officiating Chief of Project (Engines), while interacting with the media. He said the IAF had bought over 100 engines from the Russians in 2007. "With the engines started coming for overhaul, we developed technologies for three out of the six uncommon aggregators successfully.

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The remaining three are targeted to be developed within HAL by June 2015. This has given us self-confidence for meeting our indigenous missions," Chatterjee added.

Similarly, HAL also developed an overhaul technology for the KSA-2 accessory gearbox of RD-33 engines, which has been cleared by the certifying agencies now. Sukhoi facility on full throttle

The Sukhoi (Su-30 MKI) engine facility is a marvel by itself with some of the gen-next technologies already being used, including a robotic welding system. Speaking to OneIndia, Rajaram Mohanty, Officiating General Manager (Sukhoi Engine Divison), said that a total of 23 engines have been made from the raw material phase now.

"The division has so far manufactured close to 280 engines (AL-31FP) for the Sukhois, while around 158 have been overhauled. The first engine from the raw material phase was rolled out during 2011-12. We are also fully equipped for the long testing (three months) of Sukhoi engines," says Rajaram. The TBO (Time Between Overhaul) of a Sukhoi engine is 1000 hours, while the total lifespan of an engine is 2000 hours. :(

HAL hopes that it will be able to generate more employment when the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project takes a firm shape. High Altitude Test Bed in the pipeline The division estimated over Rs 1500 crore towards setting up a High Altitude Test Bed facility. "Once the test bed goes live, India will be the 4th country in the world who can boast of such a state-of-the-art facility to test new engines," says Ashish Kumar Roy, Chief of Projects (IJT & Services), while interacting with the media.

The Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) officials have already visited HAL for preliminary discussions. "Availability of many water bodies in Sunabeda is a huge plus for this project as the water consumption will be more. In addition, power supply is another factor which the state government will have to take a call," says Roy. The facility will be able to simulate the actual condition of an engine when an aircraft will be in flight. HAL plans a business model to earn revenues from the facility by supporting other projects from India and abroad. Tyagi says the flight-path for next 50 years set HAL Chairman R K Tyagi refused to take any credit for propelling the division ever since he took over the reins of the company in 2012.

While the employees of Koraput Division credit Tyagi for reviving their fortunes, the soft-spoken man said: "It was part of my job." Interestingly, till recently a posting to Koraput was not favoured by many due to its remoteness. "All I saw was an opportunity for Koraput Division to grow. While distance might be a problem for the people in general, in aerospace we can cut short the distances through innovations and inspiring decisions," says Tyagi. He said the frequent visits to the division acted as a huge morale-booster to the employees of Koraput Division. "I did my job as the captain of HAL. The flight-path for the next 50 years for Koraput has been scripted and there's no looking back," says Tyagi.
 
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