What makes a good daughter-in-law

[Ocean]

Kindly read all my posts in this thread. Don't have time to repeat for those who jump in the middle.

And such people ARE cursed. People have more patience with their kids than their elderly parents.

Also, many immature minds fail to realise that as humans grow older, rigidity of mind sets in. And some expect the elderly to cave in? It is easier to win hearts and minds through love than conflict yet the younger generation goes about it the other way. 'Our rights, our rights' slogans are shouted at max volume.

I have seen first hand daughter-in-laws living in joint family system making a strong bond with the parent-in-laws than the one daughter-in-law living abroad given her own residence (paid for by the guy's family) and independence without any interference whatsoever. Yet the one living abroad is the one giving them the least respect because she considered all the facilities provided to be her right!

Parents need to change their ways. Throw the kids out as soon as they marry and then let the couple work their asses off to save for their house whilst paying rent. Parents are under no obligation whatsoever to buy a house or pay deposit for a house or even gift expensive jewelry to the girl. Couple wants to be independent then they should stand on their own feet from the onset.

I know people who made their newly married kids move out as soon as separation was mentioned. And the couple struggles to make ends meet let alone save for a house.

Just as daughter-in-law has no obligation towards her in-laws, there are none in return and people should not complain if the parents do not help the couple in any way whatsoever. No obligation, yeah for sure!

But that begs the question, why then bother to look at a family's wealth instead of the individual's. Family is not responsible for the maintenance of the girl, only the guy is.

What the hell is all that about ? Yea sure why gift daughter in law any jewellary. One of the stupidest customs just as stupid as bringing dowry. Never supported that or supported parents paying for a seperate house. My mother gave expensive gold jewelry to my sister in law and i never wanted her to. That was not my mothers job.
And the dil living overseas sounds like an ungrateful person.

Seriously what did we write previously and what are you on about. You have some serious comprehension issues. Not worth my time.
As of curses being legit or not please take more care of your life than focussing on that.

Anyways, so done with this discussion the guyhas no good counters he just goes around and around in circles coming up with unrelated stuff. Beating about the bush

 

[Divergent]

What the hell is all that about ? Yea sure why gift daughter in law any jewellary. One of the stupidest customs just as stupid as bringing dowry. Never supported that or supported parents paying for a seperate house. My mother gave expensive gold jewelry to my sister in law and i never wanted her to. That was not my mothers job.
And the dil living overseas sounds like an ungrateful person.

Seriously what did we write previously and what are you on about. You have some serious comprehension issues. Not worth my time.
As of curses being legit or not please take more care of your life than focussing on that.

Anyways, so done with this discussion the guyhas no good counters he just goes around and around in circles coming up with unrelated stuff. Beating about the bush

Some people are just good at labelling people who differ 'cursed'. What idiots. Many parents prefer their boys having their own place too.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Pakistan’s middle class consists of over 6.27 million people, according to Credit Suisse, a global financial services company.

In its Global Wealth Report 2015 released on Oct 13, Credit Suisse said Pakistan has the 18th largest middle class worldwide.

The study revealed that 14% of world adults constituted the middle class in 2015 and held 32% of world wealth. The share of middle-class adults in Pakistan’s total adult population of 111 million was 5.7% in 2015 as opposed to India’s 3% and Australia’s 66% in 2015.

Middle-class Pakistani adults constituted 0.9% of the worldwide middle-class population. The highest concentration of middle-class population in 2015 was in China (108.7 million), followed by the United States (91.8 million) and Japan (62 million).

According to Credit Suisse, total wealth in Pakistan amounted to $495 billion in 2015. Given that the figure stood at $170 billion in 2000, total wealth in Pakistan has increased at an annualised rate of 7.4% for the last 15 years.

Further to that cost of living in Pakistan is 62.76% lower than in United Kingdom (aggregate data for all cities, rent is not taken into account). Rent in Pakistan is 84.60% lower than in United Kingdom (average data for all cities).

Recent Comparisons

• Cost of living in Karachi is 66% cheaperthan in Auckland
• Cost of living in Hyderabad is 29% cheaper than in Pune
• Cost of living in Islamabad is 72% cheaper than in Zurich
• Cost of living in Lahore is 4% more expensive than in Bangalore

Sure if a person can't afford separate housing/flat then he should:

1) Marry someone whose prepared to settle for a permanent joint family decision.

2) Not Marry till he is able

Faith teaches Men to Marry and look after their wives if they can AFFORD to also.

Any Father or mother of a daughter will pose the question 'will you be able to look after her and support her?' Before giving her hand. You also chose to ignore I mentioned parents can be looked after if the guy has other siblings who are unmarried or perhaps married with their spouses living in the same household, in addition to them visiting often and playing their part too.

This question isn't just limited to people in Pakistan but a global and broader question. Arabic and Somalian culture is before giving hand of daughter they ensure the Guy HAS his own living space and sorted out a nest. Be it his own property or a flat. So this practice isn't just narrowed to Pakistanis.

Reducing this to just 'Pakistan' doesn't give a broader spectrum and cost of livings and expenditures in Pakistan as opposed to other Countries are inexpensive.

Don't deny female their rights.

@DESERT FIGHTER congrats bro

First off, I didn't advocate to deny the female her rights? Here is my previous post in case you missed it.

Is she allowed her home with in her rights? absolutely, the religion says so, so who am I or anyone to question the right that Allah has afforded you. That clear enough for ya?

• Coming to the statistics you cited, it literally says that only 5.7 % of the total adult population of Pakistan can be classified as middle class. That btw is a percentage derived using adult population only, you expand that to a function of the entire population (188 million), it shrinks to 3.3%. But even if I take your claim of 5.7% on face value alone, there is a 50% population living under multi dimensional poverty, the segment of people that I'm talking about literally outnumbers the people your talking about by no less than 9 times. I'm not exactly sure, whats your point is with this. Secondly, as far as cost of living goes, the numbers I presented already accounted for the differences between the nations.
  
  
• Coming to your suggestion about what a person (i.e. 50% of the male population from 54 million people that are of age) should do if they can't afford separate housing.
  1. Find someone that agrees to live with them under joint family (thats the only solution for them if they want to marry)
     
     
  2. Not marry till they are able. The situation on the ground is that, waiting till they are financially somewhat secure, generally means that they will be relatively middle aged, and since the society will be looking for financially secure men, they (the men) will now have a wider pool of women to choose their life partner. The very fact that there are more women who are up for marriage means that many of them will be left unmarried. Add in the fact that just like women are usually materialistic, men are usually very visual in terms of selecting partners. The very reason why right now in Pakistan, most men and families are the first ones to tear down the looks of the girl, while the girl's family is looking to undermine the profession of the boy, his income etc.
     
     The general understanding is that nikkah should be made easy and that can happen in a joint family system where you get to reap the economic benefits. (again, provided you give her, her rights i.e. privacy, protection etc.)I'm not going to make any specific religious arguments here by quoting something from the scripture or a hadith, because it usually attracts criticism from the fellow members to the point where certain people start crossing some boundaries, so I won't do that. I think that should suffice.
  
  Lastly, I sort of accused you and @Manama for knit picking in terms of quoting religion for your rights, I've since deleted that part of my post and I'd like to publicly apologize for that, and sincerely hope that both of you forgive me because I don't know your motivations and I can't make judgements about both of you and the fact that I did, I'd like to say I'm sorry, and it won't happen again.
  
  But as far as your arguments are concerned, I'm still waiting on a replacement solution that caters to 50% of the poor population (the one you proposed was literally another joint family system itself, therefore it doesn't exactly count) that can't afford separate housing, I've yet to see one ... If you have it, let's hear it... Otherwise let's just live with the fact that this is the only practical solution that we have right now for a huge chunk of the population.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Sure if a person can't afford separate housing/flat then he should:

1) Marry someone whose prepared to settle for a permanent joint family decision.

2) Not Marry till he is able

Faith teaches Men to Marry and look after their wives if they can AFFORD to also.

Any Father or mother of a daughter will pose the question 'will you be able to look after her and support her?' Before giving her hand. You also chose to ignore I mentioned parents can be looked after if the guy has other siblings who are unmarried or perhaps married with their spouses living in the same household, in addition to them visiting often and playing their part too.

......... If they [whom you intend to marry] are poor, [let this not deter you;] God will grant them sufficiency out of His bounty - for God is infinite [in His mercy], all-knowing. [The Noble Qur'an 24:32]

 

[Divergent]

First off, I didn't advocate to deny the female her rights? Here is my previous post in case you missed it.

• Coming to the statistics you cited, it literally says that only 5.7 % of the total adult population of Pakistan can be classified as middle class. That btw is a percentage derived using adult population only, you expand that to a function of the entire population (188 million), it shrinks to 3.3%. But even if I take your claim of 5.7% on face value alone, there is a 50% population living under multi dimensional poverty, the segment of people that I'm talking about literally outnumbers the people your talking about by no less than 9 times. I'm not exactly sure, whats your point is with this. Secondly, as far as cost of living goes, the numbers I presented already accounted for the differences between the nations.
  
  
• Coming to your suggestion about what a person (i.e. 50% of the male population from 54 million people that are of age) should do if they can't afford separate housing.
  1. Find someone that agrees to live with them under joint family (thats the only solution for them if they want to marry)
     
     
  2. Not marry till they are able. Thats perfectly fine as well. However, the situation on the ground is that, waiting till they are financially somewhat secure, generally means that they will be relatively middle aged, and since the society will be looking for financially secure men, they will now have a wider pool of women to choose their life partner (since it's less men and more women who are up for marriage), and just like women are usually materialistic, men are usually very visual in terms of selecting partners. The very reason why right now in Pakistan, most men and families are the first ones to tear down the looks of the girl, while the girl's family is looking to undermine the profession of the boy, his income etc.
     
     The general understanding is that nikkah should be made easy and that can happen in a joint family system where you get to reap the economic benefits. (again, provided you give her, her rights i.e. privacy, protection etc.)I'm not going to make any specific religious arguments here by quoting something from the scripture or a hadith, because it usually attracts criticism from the fellow members to the point where certain people start crossing some boundaries, so I won't do that. I think that should suffice.
  
  Lastly, I sort of accused you and @Manama for knit picking in terms of quoting religion for your rights, I've since deleted that part of my post and I'd like to publicly apologize for that, and sincerely hope that both of you forgive me because I don't know your motivations and I can't make judgements about both of you and the fact that I did, I'd like to say I'm sorry, and it won't happen again.
  
  But as far as your arguments are concerned, I'm still waiting on a replacement solution that caters to 50% of the poor population (the one you proposed was literally another joint family system itself, therefore it doesn't exactly count) that can't afford separate housing, I've yet to see one ... If you have it, let's hear it... Otherwise let's just live with the fact that this is the only practical solution that we have right now for a huge chunk of the population.

No it's not. Not on a permanent basis anyway. Your theory of '60-70yrs' old is out of order and that 50% each case isn't alike so therefore to compound it all together doesn't make sense. Thirdly unless your going into some Governmental job your accommodation/car is all paid for and lastly rental costs in Pakistan are extremely low so this claustrophobic method isn't always necessary.

Let's take one person's earnings are 75,000rs a month. His rental cost would would be 25,000rs for a:

5 Marla Apartment at KB Colony, Lahore.

Property Features:

• 1 Bedroom.
• Attached Bathroom.
• Drawing/Dining.
• Lounge.
• Kitchen.
• Tile flooring

Giving him the remainder of 50,000rs. There are many other cheap flats depending on location. Let's not act it's not doable. Just because you prefer to stay in a joint family that's YOUR preference. Many Guys even on here admit eventually a move out is required, not instantly but gradually and at some stage.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Btw some jobs offer house allowance to the guys. So then you can get a house.

For someone who accuses me of sexism, you sure are quite quick to mention how some jobs offer xyz, so HE can take care of HER.

No it's not. Not on a permanent basis anyway. Your theory of '60-70yrs' old is out of order and that 50% each case isn't alike so therefore to compound it all together doesn't make sense. Thirdly unless your going into some Governmental job your accommodation/car is all paid for and lastly rental costs in Pakistan are extremely low so this claustrophobic method isn't always necessary.

Let's take one person's earnings are 75,000rs a month. His rental cost would would be 25,000rs for a:

5 Marla Apartment at KB Colony, Lahore.

Property Features:

• 1 Bedroom.
• Attached Bathroom.
• Drawing/Dining.
• Lounge.
• Kitchen.
• Tile flooring

Giving him the remainder of 50,000rs. There are many other cheap flats depending on location. Let's not act it's not doable. Just because you prefer to stay in a joint family that's YOUR preference. Many Guys even on here admit eventually a move out is required, not instantly but gradually and at some stage.

- The problem with your analysis is this arbitrary figure of Rs. 75K. For someone calling an opinion based on some data 'out of order', you need to bring some cold facts and reasoning of your own to the table to prove so. Where did you get that number from? Cuz that number has been produced out of thin air without any basis on the economic realities of the country.

To further explain this point consider the following;

1. The per capita income for FY 2017, was around or a little over $1600 annually. The per capita income basically reflects how much income everyone would have if all the income earned by everyone in a year was divided equally in the entire population no matter the rich, poor or the middle class.Taking 1600$ a year means 133.3 $ a month. That's just a little over Rs. 13,000 per month.
   
2. Other than that nearly half of the Pakistani population is living under multi dimensional poverty. You go in to detailed numbers and and as per the 2013/14 data, nearly 30% of the Pakistani population lives under 1$ a day!. That's a mere Rs. 3000 per month.
3. The same survey cites the numbers for the population living under $2 per day, with the statistics generated in 08, the population that lives under $2 a day comes out to be a little over 60% of the whole population. Thats a mere Rs. 6000/ month.

Just branding something 'doable' and inventing arbitrary numbers with no financial or economic basis isn't the way you can justify an economic point. Lastly, the pdf forum is just a small community, most of the people on here are quite educated, from the middle class (refer to the survey threads by the mods) so ofcourse anyone who is naive about the data can say anything regarding their specific experience, that doesn't mean that their opinion holds water in terms of the general population.

 

[Ocean]

For someone who accuses me of sexism, you sure are quite quick to mention how some jobs offer xyz, so HE can take care of HER.


- The problem with your analysis is this arbitrary figure of Rs. 75K. For someone calling an opinion based on some data 'out of order', you need to bring some cold facts and reasoning of your own to the table to prove so. Where did you get that number from? Cuz that number has been produced out of thin air without any basis on the economic realities of the country.

To further explain this point consider the following;

1. The per capita income for FY 2017, was around or a little over $1600 annually. The per capita income basically reflects how much income everyone would have if all the income earned by everyone in a year was divided equally in the entire population no matter the rich, poor or the middle class.Taking 1600$ a year means 133.3 $ a month. That's just a little over Rs. 13,000 per month.
   
2. Other than that nearly half of the Pakistani population is living under multi dimensional poverty. You go in to detailed numbers and and as per the 2013/14 data, nearly 30% of the Pakistani population lives under 1$ a day!. That's a mere Rs. 3000 per month.
3. The same survey cites the numbers for the population living under $2 per day, with the statistics generated in 08, the population that lives under $2 a day comes out to be a little over 60% of the whole population. Thats a mere Rs. 6000/ month.

Just branding something 'doable' and inventing arbitrary numbers with no financial or economic basis isn't the way you can justify an economic point. Lastly, the pdf forum is just a small community, most of the people on here are quite educated, from the middle class (refer to the survey threads by the mods) so ofcourse anyone who is naive about the data can say anything regarding their specific experience, that doesn't mean that their opinion holds water in terms of the general population.

I honestly did not get part of post addressed towards me. House allowance comment was made because i know many people who get it and also some who do not avail it, and live with aprents for free accomadation and try to keep the allowance cash saved.

You think too much and come up with many scenarios, and go into extreme details of things, like you did with my previous post,which is quite detrimental as it could make issues out of absolutely nothing. Itna ziada sochnay ka koi faida nahi hota. At the end we all get what fate has designed for us.
All i had done was sharing my views , how i feel and see things, rest how life unfolds events on any of us is an unknown thing.

 

[Verve]

What the hell is all that about ? Yea sure why gift daughter in law any jewellary. One of the stupidest customs just as stupid as bringing dowry. Never supported that or supported parents paying for a seperate house. My mother gave expensive gold jewelry to my sister in law and i never wanted her to. That was not my mothers job.
And the dil living overseas sounds like an ungrateful person.

Seriously what did we write previously and what are you on about. You have some serious comprehension issues. Not worth my time.
As of curses being legit or not please take more care of your life than focussing on that.

Anyways, so done with this discussion the guyhas no good counters he just goes around and around in circles coming up with unrelated stuff. Beating about the bush

Answers are for others too so not only you. Can't be bothered multi quoting on this battered topic.

Girls and their families have expectations from the guy's family. So guy's family will have expectations in return as well! It's not a one way street.

If the girl's side agreed to the marriage taking in only consideration of the guy's financial strength and what only he can provide for her, then it's fine. But that is very rare!

But if they based their decision on the parent's financial strength, then?

And nothing is for free. Jewelry comes with expectations so if such gifts are accepted then payback (be it in form of compliance etc) would be expected too.

All parties need to be realistic and give and take is never one way!

 

[abdulbarijan]

I honestly did not get part of post addressed towards me. House allowance comment was made because i know many people who get it and also some who do not avail it, and live with aprents for free accomadation and try to keep the allowance cash saved.

You think too much and come up with many scenarios, and go into extreme details of things, like you did with my previous post,which is quite detrimental as it could make issues out of absolutely nothing. Itna ziada sochnay ka koi faida nahi hota. At the end we all get what fate has designed for us.
All i had done was sharing my views , how i feel and see things, rest how life unfolds events on any of us is an unknown thing.

Don't worry ... I can surely explain it to you...

The part of my post addressed to you, was pointing out the lack of self awareness of an individual i.e. you, who just a few posts ago was calling me sexist, yet continued on about the wife's rights based on religious arguments, without knowing the fact, that the buzz word you hurled around just a few posts ago, is primarily used by the same egalitarian movements who hold the view that the basis of sexism is rooted in gender roles and religious arguments. Clear enough now?

BTW, in my humble opinion, overthinking is alot better than being a trigger happy champion buzz word user ... without knowing the complete concepts behind them.

@Verve you alright there bro, haven't heard from you since the .... 'incident' ... khair khariat hai ?

 

[Verve]

@Verve you alright there bro, haven't heard from you since the .... 'incident' ... khair khariat hai ?

All good

Was taking a little break from this topic specifically but this seems like an endless pit tbh! So many confused lot totally disconnected from realities of practical life. 'I want' is all I read between the lines.

Wanted to throw in poor, middle class, and upper middle class comparisons and review but these people at young age (& from well off families) are so hardlined already, imagine what they will be like when they are older .... a total nightmare for their own kids they would be if hard financial times hit on them yet they think that they are so open minded right now

 

[Divergent]

For someone who accuses me of sexism, you sure are quite quick to mention how some jobs offer xyz, so HE can take care of HER.


- The problem with your analysis is this arbitrary figure of Rs. 75K. For someone calling an opinion based on some data 'out of order', you need to bring some cold facts and reasoning of your own to the table to prove so. Where did you get that number from? Cuz that number has been produced out of thin air without any basis on the economic realities of the country.

To further explain this point consider the following;

1. The per capita income for FY 2017, was around or a little over $1600 annually. The per capita income basically reflects how much income everyone would have if all the income earned by everyone in a year was divided equally in the entire population no matter the rich, poor or the middle class.Taking 1600$ a year means 133.3 $ a month. That's just a little over Rs. 13,000 per month.
   
2. Other than that nearly half of the Pakistani population is living under multi dimensional poverty. You go in to detailed numbers and and as per the 2013/14 data, nearly 30% of the Pakistani population lives under 1$ a day!. That's a mere Rs. 3000 per month.
3. The same survey cites the numbers for the population living under $2 per day, with the statistics generated in 08, the population that lives under $2 a day comes out to be a little over 60% of the whole population. Thats a mere Rs. 6000/ month.

Just branding something 'doable' and inventing arbitrary numbers with no financial or economic basis isn't the way you can justify an economic point. Lastly, the pdf forum is just a small community, most of the people on here are quite educated, from the middle class (refer to the survey threads by the mods) so ofcourse anyone who is naive about the data can say anything regarding their specific experience, that doesn't mean that their opinion holds water in terms of the general population.

Since you love bringing random scenarios which hold no reality or basis on the ground to explain the situation so did my figure - though it made more sense.

Average Monthly Salary in Pakistan is 18,171 PKR (according to salary checker). Expenses in Pakistan are very low, household/flats can be available by carrying out research around work of residence. Many people move away to bigger cities once they've secured a job and paid a better income in addition to whatever perks are made available by the Company.

Pakistan's Annual Household Income per Capita reached 649.97 USD in Jun 2016, compared with the previous value of 568.75 USD in Jun 2014. Pakistan's Annual Household Income per Capita data is updated yearly, available from Jun 2005 to Jun 2016, with an averaged value of 478.86 USD. The data reached an all-time high of 649.97 USD in Jun 2016 and a record low of 291.20 USD in Jun 2005. CEIC calculates Annual Household Income per Capita from annual Monthly Average Household Income multiplied by 12 and annual Average Household Size and converts it into USD. The Pakistan Bureau of Statistics provides Average Household Income in local currency and Average Household Size. The State Bank of Pakistan average market exchange rate is used for currency conversions. Household Income per Capita is in annual frequency, ending in June of each year.

Pakistan's income is based on their economy and its economical factors.

This concludes the possibility of having your own place GRADUALLY and not before you hit a pensioners age is very likely and possible.

No high incorporate tax, no road tax, no income tax, no MOT, no TV licence, no high amounts bills (water/gas/electricity). Yet despite all that it is clear to see this is a cultural factor also admitted the very Pakistani Men on this forum and very little to do with costs. Yes they play somewhat role but not a permanence.

I will leave it as I still standby Females being entitled to their own residence with their spouse, this does not mean any relation with in laws is diminished. Which you and your little friend here seem to assume, moreso they can still visit/stay over including grandchildren can go for sleepovers etc.

Therefore I conclude this as Yes. Females are entitled to their places and should if requested, in hand with they should also be vary and understanding of the situation if it is not available with immediate effect, but will be eventually fulfilled within a realistic and reasonable time frame.

Have a nice day.

 

[Verve]

Expenses in Pakistan are very low,

Which planet do you live on!?

Pakistan's Annual Household Income per Capita reached 649.97

$650 (£550) per year Household income leads to (below)?????? WTH!

This concludes the possibility of having your own place GRADUALLY and not before you hit a pensioners age is very likely and possible.

Add the factor of Pakistan's average houseshold size to be 6.7!!

Now divide $650 by 6.7 and you will get average income per person (inc child). Let's round this to be $100 per person per year. Note the PER YEAR!

Living expenses of per person per month hence is $8.333333! That is £7 per month to spend on food, education etc etc etc.

Now I challenge you to live off on $8 per month and save to buy a house by the age of 65. You should have appx 40 years to reach 65.

In 40 years, you will save $4000 ($100 per year x 40 years) if you didn't eat or spend a single cent out of it.

Goodluck having an own place (or not starving to death first) by 65 with that kind of money!

Please stop being delusional ...

 

[nang2]

1. Be a good person.
2. Be a good wife.

 

[Divergent]

$650 (£550) per year Household income leads to (below)?????? WTH!



Add the factor of Pakistan's average houseshold size to be 6.7!!

Now divide $650 by 6.7 and you will get average income per person (inc child). Let's round this to be $100 per person per year. Note the PER YEAR!

Living expenses of per person per month hence is $8.333333! That is £7 per month to spend on food, education etc etc etc.

Now I challenge you to live off on $8 per month and save to buy a house by the age of 65. You should have appx 40 years to reach 65.

In 40 years, you will save $4000 ($100 per year x 40 years) if you didn't eat or spend a single cent out of it.

Goodluck having an own place (or not starving to death first) by 65 with that kind of money!

That kind of money is taking in accordance to Pakistan's economy. Where expenditures are low. This also deducts savings and personal assets.

Don't act like you can't get wives a separate place. Course you can!

 

[Verve]

That kind of money is taking in accordance to Pakistan's economy. Where expenditures are low. This also deducts savings and personal assets.

Don't act like you can't get wives a separate place. Course you can!

You are completely disconnected from REALITY! Seriously!

@Hell hound ... give some lesson to your team mate please on living expenses in Pakistan! She thinks they are 'very low'