What makes a good daughter-in-law

[Ocean]

@abdulbarijan @Divergent1

Why don't you guys pick on more educational issues like dowry and the issue of mehar along with other social evils women face in a male dominated society and a patriarchal system

This joint vs separated family issue is a futile attempt and helps none here.

Frankly this was the reason i jumped in this thread. Later on it became joint vs nuclear system which again i did not use as my main argument. My main aim in posting here was exactly what you are mentioning.

 

[abdulbarijan]

You obviously missed what I said - if they are able, would you like me to give you the definition for that? I've been emphasising this from the very first point. Also the reality is according to some articles, Pakistan is making a slow shift from 'joint family' system:

https://www.dawn.com/news/859933

http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/20078/are-the-days-of-joint-families-over/

You obviously also missed the part where I said that I don't have any problem with a woman demanding her right, provided the husband is able. The only problem is, atleast 60% of the population is not able to have that based on the statistics provided.

Thank you. Someone with common sense.

 

[El Sidd]

Frankly this was the reason i jumped in this thread. Later on it became joint vs nuclear system which again i did not use as my main argument. My main aim in posting here was exactly what you are mentioning.

This thread was never a good idea but its been a pleasant surprise that people didn't go full retard on this that shows hope.

We must be realistic in our approach but i can understand the typical change the world attitude of the younglings and stubbornness is a blessing in disguise only when one is young.

Tackle something which you can influence yourself and be the change. For example dowry or mehar. This is well within our reach and legally as well whilst not dhabadoosing the fabric of society.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Firstly, i did not "hurl" the term at you at all.I have been an off and on reader here and there were many many ocassions i saw you going hyper in women rights threads and each time you seemed to produce an argument which was never related to whatever those discussions were. For instance i recall once you dragged a whole discussion about a womens only market to several pages, then few days back you were arguing with ,i think divergent, when she and others supported a woman for killing her husband who had been allegedly raping his daughter in law, tho divergent and others had clarified they had commented taking the news on its face value , but still you were unhappy.there would be so many other such discussions where i would have spotted you doing this. That led me to call you sexist .
So sexism comment was not a trigger happy or "hurling at anyone" response, it was due to having read so many of your similar posts in various discussions.

I see, so let's see what exactly is sexism, based on your definition...

If i open my dictionary it just states sexism is discrimination, prejudice against women due to their gender.

• First off your very definition of sexism is sexist because sexism isn't gender specific, so loose the "against the woman" in the definition. A better definition is, 'Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination on the basis of gender is sexism."
  
  
• Coming to the arguments that I made...
  1. My argument in that women's only market thread: Feminism and other such egalitarian movements talk about inclusiveness. Gender specificity in spaces is highly disliked, and the same feminists call it sexist. Now you go ahead and open a women's only market, while your an NGO whose about 'women empowerment/ equality' and me calling out your clear hypocrisy ... is sexist?
  2. Secondly, the argument around the thread about the woman murdering her husband because he supposedly raped his daughter in law was: the facts aren't established. The story is literally the narration of the criminal and her point of view hence quite unreliable since she maybe looking to save her own skin. Let the investigation establish the facts before you bad mouth the dead or say "good work" to a criminal.... again ... is that sexist ... ?

In other words, literally calling out sexism (in terms of gender specific establishments) is sexist in of itself in your book, because it was women empowerment groups that were being called out on their hypocrisy. In addition, not believing the words of a criminal without any proper investigation is also sexist because the criminal is a female ...

 

[Verve]

FYI: I did Economics as Unit study so shut your assuming mouth.

hahahaha ... Economics degree aside, how is/was your maths though!?

$8 a month earning leads to a house by the retirement age of 65 ...

If you're educated you get a job or move to city.

People have to walk many miles every day to get enough drinking water and that usually is not clean and you are talking of education, job and city moves

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Things are not quite so simple always as black and white

First scenario: If a couple has only two or three sons and all of them going to live separately at different places after marriage then what will happen to old parent? The parents have great right upon their children more than anyone else. children have ultimate responsibility to be kind to their parents and look after them when they are old

Second scenario : When husband is poor or unable to provide separate accommodation for his wife as you have all sort of people in your society and some even struggling for as basic things as food and clothing so should wife still insist for separate house in such circumstances ?

The Muslim Family Ordinance Law 1961 is not in contradiction with the Holy Qur'an as the Holy Qur'an does not prohibit seeking permission (from the council) for second (or subsequent) marriage. Nor does the Holy Qur'an forbid to delegate the power of divorce to wife, or curtail Husband's power of divorce (as is legal under Muslim Family Ordinance of 1961)
.

This topic is not about polygamy but my point was that you rejected previous Islamic opinion which is also based on Quran and Sunnah which state that Men don't need permission of first wife for second marriage because condition of second marriage are " treating wives in a just manner by providing them equal resources and time . If you can do this then you can go ahead

If permission of first wife would have been obligatory for second marriage then you would never see a man with multiple wives as no woman will happily share her husband if she had authority to say YES or NO in this matter of polygamy

"
The first wife’s consent is not a prerequisite for a man to take another wife. The Standing Committee for Issuing Fatwas was asked about this and replied as follows:

It is not obligatory for the husband, if he wants to take a second wife, to have the consent of his first wife, but it is good manners and kindness to deal with her in such a manner that will minimize the hurt feelings such thing might produce. So it’s incumbent on the husband to be kind to his wife, discuss the matter with her in a gentle and pleasant manner, and this should be coupled with spending whatever money may be necessary in order to gain her acceptance of the situation.”

Now if this family ordnance law in Pakistan make it obligatory for Muslim man to seek permission of first wife for second marriage then they should support this claim from Islamic sources i.e Quran or hadith as I have read nowhere that consent of first wife is must for second marriage

same thing, if i don't want my husband to marry again he can't do it

Its not same thing. I was talking about general rule. Certain extra terms and conditions you can add in nikkah nama prior to marriage and your husband would have option to accept or reject these conditions before saying qabool so its still him who has to make this decision . You can even ask him to give you 15 lakh per month in case of divorce but would he accept or reject is another matter lol

 

[M. Sarmad]

Now if this family ordnance law in Pakistan make it obligatory for Muslim man to seek permission of first wife for second marriage then they should support this claim from Islamic sources i.e Quran or hadith as I have read nowhere that consent of first wife is must for second marriage

Bro, it doesn't work that way. Only the law that contradicts the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is considered un-Islamic, all other laws are considered Islamic. So, it's the "contradiction" that has to be proven, not the "agreement".

The Constitution of Pakistan states that no law shall be enacted which is repugnant to Injunctions of Islam. Shariat Petition Nos.26/I of 1994, 2/P of 1996 and 2/I of 1996 were filed to challenge the validity of section 6 of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961 as opposed to the Injunctions of Islam.


The Federal Shariat Court, after hearing the detailed arguments, ruled:

" ...we would hold that subject to our observations and recommendation in para.92 to amend the provisions of section 6 of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961, the said provision, are not violative of the Injunctions of Islam."


The detailed judgement of FSC where this argument/contention (that the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961 is violative of Islamic injunctions) is thoroughly discussed and summarily refuted :

https://gmlaw.wordpress.com/2013/10...s-of-muslim-family-laws-ordinance-un-islamic/

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Bro, it doesn't work that way. Only the law that contradicts the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah is considered un-Islamic, all other laws are considered Islamic. So, it's the "contradiction" that has to be proven, not the "agreement".

The Constitution of Pakistan states that no law shall be enacted which is repugnant to Injunctions of Islam. Shariat Petition Nos.26/I of 1994, 2/P of 1996 and 2/I of 1996 were filed to challenge the validity of section 6 of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961 as opposed to the Injunctions of Islam.


The Federal Shariat Court, after hearing the detailed arguments, ruled:

" ...we would hold that subject to our observations and recommendation in para.92 to amend the provisions of section 6 of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961, the said provision, are not violative of the Injunctions of Islam."


The detailed judgement of FSC where this argument/contention (that the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961 is violative of Islamic injunctions) is thoroughly discussed and summarily refuted :

https://gmlaw.wordpress.com/2013/10...s-of-muslim-family-laws-ordinance-un-islamic/

Mate I don't think we can add some extra terms and conditions with those terms and condition of polygamy mentioned in Quran and Sunnah especially when we are talking about Islamic point of view of polygamy but well let agree to disagree and this topic is not about polygamy. I brought polygamy in discussion just to prove my point that its frowned upon in our society because of cultural reason and poor economic condition even though its permissible in Islam within certain conditions. similarly its ok for girls to ask separate house after marriage but then again people are living in joint family system because of certain cultural reason or its more affordable option for them.

These are all personal choices and its up to people to decide what is best option for them according to their social and financial circumstances. I know some guys who are willing to live separate with wife and kids but they are forced to stay in joint family system because of financial circumstances . People should be flexible if they want to sustain certain relationship as life is not bed of roses aur woo kehte chadar dekh kar paoon phelana Chaya

so getting back to topic

What makes a good daughter-in-law ?

Co-operation with husband or in laws rather than competitions

 

[Divergent]

hahahaha ... Economics degree aside, how is/was your maths though!?

$8 a month earning leads to a house by the retirement age of 65 ...

People have to walk many miles every day to get enough drinking water and that usually is not clean and you are talking of education, job and city moves

Those statistic are from a report in 2014. They may not be accurate and from what I know the circumstances in Pakistan aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

I obviously did mention if they can afford and are able yet despite saying that you still seem to have an issue with which just goes to show that your main problem is this whole idea of a female wanting her own place and costs have absolutely nothing to do with it because it's ingrained in you culturally. Let's admit to what it exactly is since you were going around sending lanats and saying people are cursed because they fulfil a right and maintain a relation as well as sought encouragement/agreement with parents.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

 

[Verve]

Those statistic are from a report in 2014. They may not be accurate and from what I know the circumstances in Pakistan aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

I obviously did mention if they can afford and are able yet despite saying that you still seem to have an issue with which just goes to show that your main problem is this whole idea of a female wanting her own place and costs have absolutely nothing to do with it because it's ingrained in you culturally. Let's admit to what it exactly is since you were going around sending lanats and saying people are cursed because they fulfil a right and maintain a relation as well as sought encouragement/agreement with parents.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

Perhaps you have a reading problem. I have always said that if affordable and can look after the parents as well then all good. Read the thread from start!!

As for Laanat, it's for those who do not look after their parents when they should be.

And your $8 a month to have a house by retirement is just plain stupid!

 

[Divergent]

Perhaps you have a reading problem. I have always said that if affordable and can look after the parents as well then all good. Read the thread from start!!

As for Laanat, it's for those who do not look after their parents when they should be.

And your $8 a month to have a house by retirement is just plain stupid!

Not applicable to all, on an average most are okay. Pakistan isn't as poor made to be. Most people have decent assets through savings or land.

Bottom line: She is entitled, backed by Faith.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Mate I don't think we can add some extra terms and conditions with those terms and condition of polygamy mentioned in Quran and Sunnah especially when we are talking about Islamic point of view of polygamy but well let agree to disagree and this topic is not about polygamy. I brought polygamy in discussion just to prove my point that its frowned upon in our society because of cultural reason and poor economic condition even though its permissible in Islam within certain conditions. similarly its ok for girls to ask separate house after marriage but then again people are living in joint family system because of certain cultural reason or its more affordable option for them.

These are all personal choices and its up to people to decide what is best option for them according to their social and financial circumstances. I know some guys who are willing to live separate with wife and kids but they are forced to stay in joint family system because of financial circumstances . People should be flexible if they want to sustain certain relationship as life is not bed of roses aur woo kehte chadar dekh kar paoon phelana Chaya

so getting back to topic

What makes a good daughter-in-law ?

Co-operation with husband or in laws rather than competitions

These are not "extra" terms and conditions. Marriage among Muslims is not a sacrament, but a civil contract. It is a legal agreement between a man and a woman where, in order to avoid future disputes, either of the parties may include as many terms and conditions as they want, as long as those conditions do not violate any of the injunctions for marriage/family life given in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah ..


A woman can even have the right to divorce her husband under the Muslim Family Ordinance 1961 (that too isn't un-Islamic), but unfortunately the entire relevant section of the "Nikah Nama" is usually crossed out by the Maulvis of our local mosques or the relatives of the bride/groom, before handing it over to the bride or groom for signing it, at the time of Nikah. Majority of the women (esp. those from rural areas), unfortunately, are unaware of their rights under the 1961 Muslim Family Ordinance ..

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

These are not "extra" terms and conditions. Marriage among Muslims is not a sacrament, but a civil contract. It is a legal agreement between a man and a woman where, in order to avoid future disputes, either of the parties may include as many terms and conditions as they want, as long as those conditions do not violate any of the injunctions for marriage/family life given in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah ..


A woman can even have the right to divorce her husband under the Muslim Family Ordinance 1961 (that too isn't un-Islamic), but unfortunately the entire relevant section of the "Nikah Nama" is usually crossed out by the Maulvis of our local mosques or the relatives of the bride/groom, before handing it over to the bride or groom for signing it, at the time of Nikah. Majority of the women (esp. those from rural areas), unfortunately, are unaware of their rights under the 1961 Muslim Family Ordinance ..

I am talking about general rule. You can off course add certain terms and condition in nikkah nama and its up to man to give up his rights for you before signing on this civil contract or Nikkah naam whatever you call it. If this family law about polygamy is not Unislamic then why its not being implemented in rest of Muslim countries. You need to read " The Debate Over Polygamy In the Context of Muslim Family Law Ordinance 1961" as don't want to copy paste . Let say a Muslim man opt for second marriage without the consent of first wife then would this invalidate his second marriage?


http://sciarena.com/J/List/14/iss/Volume 1 2016/Issue 1/6.pdf
http://www.academia.edu/12141726/Islam_and_polygamy

 

[M. Sarmad]

Bottom line: She is entitled, backed by Faith.

No doubt about that

Most people have decent assets through savings or land.

Depends on how you define "decent" assets. Studies show that almost 90% of Pakistani (and 94% Indian) adults have net assets worth less than 10,000 USD.

 

[Divergent]

No doubt about that




Depends on how you define "decent" assets. Studies show that almost 90% of Pakistani (and 94% Indian) adults have net assets worth less than 10,000 USD.

And apparently having a house/flat on rent which one CAN afford or is cheaper is an issue. From what I've established they're not interested in giving women their right but to avoid bluntly saying it and stick cultural backward norms would prefer sugar coating it with costs. Lol