What is India?

[Flintlock]

The only think keeping India together is Pakistan and Bangladesh. If India did not have these two countries to scapegoat then India would disintegrate. India is only unified by three things - Bollywood, cricket and the English language. All three are not indigenous to India and were brought in by the British. India is a contradiction in terms. Its internal divisions are enough to ensure it never becomes a regional power. This is just a dream put into the minds of Indians by the US to counter China. India should not think itself too big otherwise it will take a steep fall.

Seriously? All the famous author can come up with is this piece of nonsense?

You think your tiny country even enters into the minds of a billion people?

Think again.

 

[Vanguard_786]

The only think keeping India together is Pakistan and Bangladesh. If India did not have these two countries to scapegoat then India would disintegrate. India is only unified by three things - Bollywood, cricket and the English language. All three are not indigenous to India and were brought in by the British. India is a contradiction in terms. Its internal divisions are enough to ensure it never becomes a regional power. This is just a dream put into the minds of Indians by the US to counter China. India should not think itself too big otherwise it will take a steep fall.

What a stupid post !! Do you seriously know what you are talking about !! Pakistan and bangladesh are immaterial for India' existance. India was unified much before these two countries ( the jewels of the world ) existed. You wont get to see much of Bollywood SOuth of the Vaindiyas and less than 2% Indians can speak read or write English !!
Think before you write . India is too big and powerful for any third world nations like yours to disntergrate !! Dont worry about us , worry about Global warming

 

[Flintlock]

Some make a point by suggesting the best foot forward is what India is, some the opposite - both sides of that particular divide present thier case without wit, without craft or civility - and both fare use as clubs to pound any interlocutor who may disagree and both fail to engage and make their interlocutors reexamine their own positions.

I choose my response based on my opponent's post.

Stupid questions deserve abrasive answers.

And Muse, you know don't you? : Nobody likes the resident psychologist.

 

[muse]

Nobody likes the resident psychologist

Dear nobody, bite me!

Stupid questions deserve abrasive answers.

See above, the "bite me" part.

Khush?

One does not know whether to laugh or be sad - the thread, entirely legimate, has gone to people simply expressing unworthy ideas - damn shame. (see above, the "bite me" part)

 

[Flintlock]

A shame indeed.

 

[Humanoid]

Seriously, have you got out of your ivory tower and gone to muslim dominated neighbourhood? Have you spoken to common muslims, the rickshaw pullers, the dhobis etc.
Do not read from the RSS manual on what muslims are or what their needs and wants are !! Muslims are discriminated daily and incessantly by the Hindu majorirty, whatever their are Hindu nationalists or 'secularists'. !!
As for the question of intergration and education, muslims have the same ideas in regards to educating their community as any other community. Why is Urdu almost non existant in UP where it was born and nutured ? Most Muslims go to Hindi medium schools because they know that their future is with Hindi and Hindi education rather than Urdu

Discrimination.? ok .. just point that out ..i mean instead of just beating around the bush.. why don't we just pick up the education front.. ? should we trace back to history .? get real .. Urdu is not the future .. if you really want to integrate.. ..have an appetite for going through changes .. if world of business and trade speaks English .. that's what muslims should also recognize.. my post was to focus only on education .. .which i believe is the sole solution to ignorance and darkness.. even if I agree with you about the discrimination part .. for ordinary muslims.. .. I also .. think that's more of a derivative of current situation .. of muslims.. .. we do have well educated muslims who garner everyone's respect.. irrespective of religion .. why dont muslims try to garner respect through education, achievements in business and trades..? u mean to say everywhere they face discrimination..?
what about Azim Premji, Abul Kalam, Y K Hamied? ..I have no hatred against Islam ..and as a matter of fact i believe i have secular mind... i . feel really depressed looking at the attacks on churches... as a whole.. .muslims should rise economically.. how come despite owning more than half of the world's oil .. middle east is still lagging .. on education front .. on R&D ..? They should invest heavily on setting up world class universities and research labs and allow more muslim youth to study there ..instead of maintaining multiple wives and scores of Rolls Royce..

 

[donrahul]

delta

I am familiar with India, please do keep the line about plural society for the Westerners, they apprecite seeing themselves reflected in others. Naxalite exit and why did they come about? Communalism is a sad old fact, why does it persist? Does not the government's own report outline that Muslim of Hindustan face discrimination on a massive scale? That their representation in the armed forces and police is now negligible - and why is that? and what is it reflective of ? And the rise of BJP, allied as it with Hindu facists religio/political organizations speaks of "pluralism"?? It is indeed a novel defintion of "pluralism"

But of course we may want to avoid the tu tu mai mai - the thread is really about the need in India to develop a new intellectual and moral frame in which India may define her role among great power and emerging powers.

It is quite disheartening to see learned members, believing merely in reports written by journalists. I find among the Pakistani and Bangladeshi members , a trend where in they take every negative report of India @ face value and Every positive report as a fake one.. Muse.. I am a new member to this place and more than posting, I enjoy reading the posts.. But I hate to repeat myself saying this, That do not come to a conclusion, without knowing the ground realities..

You get a news report, that Christians and their Churches are being burnt n vandalized in Central India.. and I guess your assumption is that every Christian in the country runs for his life, being chased by angry hindu mobs wielding tridents.. India is a vast country. Geographically the 7th Largest. There is not a common language or culture which extends beyond a distance of 600 Kilometres.. Chennai is different from Bangalore.. Delhi is different from Punjab.. Andhra different from Orissa and so on..

You say that you are familiar with the ground realities of India.. My question is, apart from the news reports which you browse in Internet, do you have any other source of news? I guess you think that hindu's n muslims live in seperate ghettos and occasionally indulge in gang land type wars and pitched battles.. You quote a report which says that Muslims are discriminated in India.. The place where I live, I dont see any muslim discrimination.. I am in India.. my first friend since i was a kid is a muslim guy.. one of my best college mate is a Christian guy.. I drink Chai @ the local chai shop run by one Mr.Nawaz, who s also my friend.. My point is , dont stereotype by one report.. No one is perfect. no country is perfect. The hindu muslim christian friction could be very high in some place and almost nonexistent in other parts of the country.. To stereotype a country of one billion and effectively trying to smother a discussion/point based on journals and reports or some Third party news is not a very matured way of looking @ things..

 

[Humanoid]

It is quite disheartening to see learned members, believing merely in reports written by journalists. I find among the Pakistani and Bangladeshi members , a trend where in they take every negative report of India @ face value and Every positive report as a fake one.. Muse.. I am a new member to this place and more than posting, I enjoy reading the posts.. But I hate to repeat myself saying this, That do not come to a conclusion, without knowing the ground realities..

You get a news report, that Christians and their Churches are being burnt n vandalized in Central India.. and I guess your assumption is that every Christian in the country runs for his life, being chased by angry hindu mobs wielding tridents.. India is a vast country. Geographically the 7th Largest. There is not a common language or culture which extends beyond a distance of 600 Kilometres.. Chennai is different from Bangalore.. Delhi is different from Punjab.. Andhra different from Orissa and so on..

You say that you are familiar with the ground realities of India.. My question is, apart from the news reports which you browse in Internet, do you have any other source of news? I guess you think that hindu's n muslims live in seperate ghettos and occasionally indulge in gang land type wars and pitched battles.. You quote a report which says that Muslims are discriminated in India.. The place where I live, I dont see any muslim discrimination.. I am in India.. my first friend since i was a kid is a muslim guy.. one of my best college mate is a Christian guy.. I drink Chai @ the local chai shop run by one Mr.Nawaz, who s also my friend.. My point is , dont stereotype by one report.. No one is perfect. no country is perfect. The hindu muslim christian friction could be very high in some place and almost nonexistent in other parts of the country.. To stereotype a country of one billion and effectively trying to smother a discussion/point based on journals and reports or some Third party news is not a very matured way of looking @ things..

Seriously .. the very fact that despite having so many interest groups, religions, cultures and languages we still have not disintegrated against the wishes of so many . ..... show me one single example of a country with so many diversities.. and adversities and they are living happily ever after.. without any problem .. Northern Ireland could not even.handle... two groups of Christianity.. Shias and Sunnis cant look eye to eye... which is that .. utopia who is perfect..? I don't think India claims that they are perfect.. it is a growing nation which has found some global standing based on some solid years of 8% growth.. which when you translate to a billion people scale .. makes it look really large.. and impact full.. whats wrong in believing in a fact that "we are good ..or We can" ... dont you think that should be the attitude..of nation aspire to go up..? or should we just say .. day in day out " look how bad we are.. we as a nation suck ( i know some people would love to pound on this line)... if we are fooling the entire world.. let us face the consequences of that..we are ready to take that.. instead of world (Western I mean) taking us for a ride and dumping their products on us.....
I mean give me a break....

 

[Humanoid]

Pakistan and Bangladesh ...

1. None of them have Naxal or Maoist problems

2. Pakistan has Urdu as National language Bangladesh has Bengali

3. Both of them has much less population than India

4. Major part of their history they were ruled under autocratic rules much like China which makes policy implementation much easier than democratic rules..

5. They both are declared Islamic Nations

Still why don't they are astronomically ahead of India in-terms of economic growth and world influence? They should be.. .right? .. if Mr. Munshi and some other member's opinions have to hold...

 

[donrahul]

for the records, Pakistan is better in population.. Bangladesh is one of the most densely populated countries.. For its size, it has way too much people, like India...

 

[muse]

Seriously .. the very fact that despite having so many interest groups, religions, cultures and languages we still have not disintegrated against the wishes of so many . ..... show me one single example of a country with so many diversities.. and adversities and they are living happily ever after.. without any problem .. Northern Ireland could not even.handle... two groups of Christianity.. Shias and Sunnis cant look eye to eye... which is that .. utopia who is perfect..? I don't think India claims that they are perfect.. it is a growing nation which has found some global standing based on some solid years of 8% growth.. which when you translate to a billion people scale .. makes it look really large.. and impact full.. whats wrong in believing in a fact that "we are good ..or We can" ... dont you think that should be the attitude..of nation aspire to go up..? or should we just say .. day in day out " look how bad we are.. we as a nation suck ( i know some people would love to pound on this line)... if we are fooling the entire world.. let us face the consequences of that..we are ready to take that.. instead of world (Western I mean) taking us for a ride and dumping their products on us.....
I mean give me a break....

An excellent post, well done, raw and attractive.

Whereas it is true that some disparage India only to disparage it, it is also true that in fashioning responses, some Indian interlocutors are entirely too sensitive and defensive.

If these kinds of religious bigotry is something that an Indian finds offensive, why is that so few have come forward to outright condemn such behaviour? I am cnvinced it is because of their sensitivity and defensiveness, I don't think that our board members are closet haters, but I do think that they take defesiveness in to overdrive.

It is exactly right and factually correct that India have a long history free of bigotry and it is also true and factually correct that it also has periods in which religious chaivanism seems to have no end.

Added to this is the idea that india aspires to fashion a secular society and secularism as a frame for governance, however; Indian interlocutors are again caught on the defensive when they do not acknowledge that this is a hard, tortuous road and avoiding pitfalls is difficult and failure is a human reality.

It's really that simple - if the behaviour is condemnabe, condemn it - what's the point of dancing all around it and not convincing people that such behaviour does not have the stamp of approval of the majority - who like majorities else where are apathetic and involved in their own day to day problems.

However; this leaves the problem of govt inaction - and it's real - again, if such apathy by the govt is condemnable because of elections or lobbying and you find it condemnable - do the right thing condemn the inaction - please do not go about singing the virtues of something you know is not functioning as it should.

 

[Ali.009]

Still why don't they are astronomically ahead of India in-terms of economic growth and world influence? They should be.. .right? .. if Mr. Munshi and some other member's opinions have to hold...

Yet again, bragging about indian economic might and influence. Seriously, where do you get this daily feed of recorded lines? Your facts and figures prove another picture then what you guys keep talking about.

-India accounts for 40 % of the world’s poor (more than in the whole of Africa)

-Its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world.

-India ranks way down at 96 among 119 developing countries included in the Global Hunger Index (GHI).Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India.

-Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India’s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank's poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day]

-According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -10,360,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 249,900,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 152 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book].Amnesty International (AI) 2008 report on issues within India

-The Human Development Report for 2007-08 released by the UNDP ranked India 128 out of 177 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. Malaysia ranked 63 and listed at under High Human Development category. The report found that India’s GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $3,452, far below Malaysia’s $10,882. China listed as 81. Read the statistics from UNDP website.

-According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are “Other Backward Castes”.

-89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nation’s capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]

-India has over 35 per cent of the world’s total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)

-Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people.

-Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.


Should i post more? Please go and work for your country rather then wasting your energy here on these forums. Your economically powerful country badly needs you.

 

[donrahul]

Yet again, bragging about indian economic might and influence. Seriously, where do you get this daily feed of recorded lines? Your facts and figures prove another picture then what you guys keep talking about.

-India accounts for 40 % of the world’s poor (more than in the whole of Africa)

-Its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world.

-India ranks way down at 96 among 119 developing countries included in the Global Hunger Index (GHI).Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India.

-Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India’s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank's poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day]

-According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -10,360,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 249,900,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 152 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book].Amnesty International (AI) 2008 report on issues within India

-The Human Development Report for 2007-08 released by the UNDP ranked India 128 out of 177 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. Malaysia ranked 63 and listed at under High Human Development category. The report found that India’s GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $3,452, far below Malaysia’s $10,882. China listed as 81. Read the statistics from UNDP website.

-According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are “Other Backward Castes”.

-89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nation’s capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]

-India has over 35 per cent of the world’s total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)

-Japan has 4,000 universities for its 127 million people and the US has 3,650 universities for its 301 million, India has only 348 universities for its 1.2 billion people.

-Indian universities churn out three million graduates a year, only 15% of them are suitable employees for blue-chip companies. Only 1 million among them are IT professionals.


Should i post more? Please go and work for your country rather then wasting your energy here on these forums. Your economically powerful country badly needs you.

I wonder if you ever read my post which is here in this same page.. Have you come to India? Have you seen the people?

You bring up facts and figures.. dO you think its seriously a scale to compare the progress a country has made over the past 60 years and the obstacles it had over come in the same time.

Let me give you this example.. you are offered 2 jobs, one with a salary of $14000 with a 10% increment after you have completed the first year and another with a salary of 6000$ with an increment of 50% after you have completed the first year.. which one would you take??

Percentages are not an absolute measure, if the numbers are huge.. If you can bring in 10 links with negative quotes, I can bring in 100 links with Positive news about India... When it is Kashmir, you bring Pakistan and Kashmiris.. When it is economic development, you bring in China, which opened up their markets, a good 2 decades before us!!

Meaningful discussion is stifled if its gonna be a war of Links and not War of Thoughts!

 

[Ali.009]

Those 10 negative things i posted above are heavy upon even if you put 1 million positive things about India.

I dont decline that there has not been any progress within India. Making some roads, big buildings, having shinny cars - benefiting 15% eilte of the country does not makes India a super state. I merely provided you with a face of reality in your country, which all of you indians forget.


PS: Discussions are carried on with backing of factual facts and figures. Learn the manners of discussions and proving the points. All those facts and figures posted above are from creditable sources, unlike yours.


-Regards

 

[BanglaBhoot]

I think the Indians on this forum are getting an allergic reaction from the IDF. The Indians are showing the arrogant but dumb side of their character. Bangladesh is about 1/20th the size of India but has an economy that is roughly 1/10 of India's. No single state of India is doing better than Bangladesh economically. In other words each of the states of India should secede and their economies would do even better (some are doing dismally). This is certainly the case for the seven sisters, Kashmir, Punjab and Tamil Nadu. We in Bangladesh do not have the number of poor people that are in India and our farmers certainly do not commit mass suicide. India is clearly not a happy place to live. Only good for the upper class Hindu Brahmins.