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What If 24 Su-35 bought by China are for PAF ? Just my thoughts

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I know many will think my conclusion is daring and outrageous but please read through my well thought analysis. From the events to date, you all can slowly see how the events unfold and how are they related one to another especially the date are so close.

First of all, lets look at this event
Pakistan set to sign 40-year lease for Gwadar port with Chinese company: officials - The Express Tribune

President Xi visit Pakistan in april 2015 to sign the mega USD46 billion deal that is one of the largest and most ambition plan for China Pakistan. A plan China hope can boast Pakistan economy while at the same time ,make China less reliance on Strait of Malacca for import of fuel. Despite the massive investment, Pakistan is a sovereign nation and regards to responsible of protecting Gwadar port still lies on Pakistan.

The best way to protect this port is to have an fighter aircraft capable of neutralise coming airthreat from huge Indian Ocean while at the same time capable of striking the enemy at a projected range. These puts Su-27 series aircraft in the foreline. It is an aircraft with exceptional range given its huge size, massive payload of at least 9tons ammunition carries. Most of all, a very agile aircraft despite it huge airframe. The twin engine will also ensure better survival in case one engine breaks down. Su-35 touted the most advance Sukhoi series with air superiority, ground and sea attack is an attractive option for PAF. While we do know China produces the Su-27 series aircraft domestically under J-XX series with license from Russian for 200 airframe. But in terms of license issue interpretation to China and Russian is always an issue for both in the 2000s times. It was finally settle in 2008 when Russian president Dmitry Medvedev visited China and both agree on the issue. China was allowed to continue produce as much J-XX series of Su-27 lineage as she deemed but not allow to export any of this lineage to compete with Russian.
Russia and China Dispute Intellectual Property - Kommersant Moscow
This will means Pakistan is not able to get any of China modify or made Su-27 series aircraft and the only possible way to obtain such heavy weight fighter is to buy from Russian made.


Then we look at another piece of interesting news this September.
Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Russian Deputy FM comfirmed interest and talks regard to purchase of SU-35 by PAF although not much detailed is mention due to the sensitivity of selling Russian most advance Su-27 series to PAF against Russian biggest arm buyer ,India. Russian is eager to expand its shrinking aviation export and the fact, IAF is looking more towards the west with purchase of 36 Rafale. Russian needs to look at all potential customers and PAF is definitely one of them. Russian in past has export a number of weapon systems or equipment to PAF like RD-93 engines, Mi-17 and possible Mi-35 gunship with success. RD-93 engine which is critical to JF-17 project is only possible through the blessing of China acting as middle man to shut India complaint of Russia export weapons to Pakistan, India arch rival.

Finally, we look at this new.
China will get first Russian Su-35 fighters in 2016
China after talking about buying Su-35 for almost 5 years finally inked the deal recently and most importantly, the urgent timing of the delivery in 2016 plus a small amount of SU-35 purchase, raise an eyebrow.

Why China purchase only 24 Su-35 since China is such a big and rich country? She definitely needs more than 24 Su-35 if she needs to defend her land and sea. But some critics will argue China purchase a minimum of 24 Su-35 just to get their hands on reverse engineering of critical component like 117S engine. But lets look at some other facts.
国产心脏终于行了:太行发动机一技术让美羡慕 - 中网资讯中心

This is an extract from an interview with Lin zuoming, Chairman of AVIC who comment on WS-10 'Taihang" engine series. He mention WS-10 series engine in the latest version WS-10B has surpassed Russian engine technology in terms of lifespan, performance and reliability and claim the latest version of Taihang engine can produce 140Ktons while Russian 117S is just a slight mere of 142Ktons thrust as compare.
Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why would China spend so much trouble just to get an almost similar performance and spec engine? Then some critics will argue besides the engine, the other sub systems may interested the Chinese like PESA radar onboard. Lets look at another aircraft currently in development and will enter series soon.

J-11D_1102.jpg


You can see the aircraft spotted with WS-10 series engine and a slanted nose cone suggesting AESA radar. China produced J-XX series aircraft are using high level of composite and 3D printing which proves the airframe superior in any aspect compare to Russian Su-35 in terms of structure strength,weight and lifespan.

Chinese Military Aviation: Fighters II

Another aircraft with slanted cone and is due to be in service is the J-10B which comfirms spotted with an AESA radar proves J-11D has the same AESA radar(more powerful due to bigger size)from the same institute.
J-10B_radar.jpg


Then this question comes into your mind. Why would China purchase 24 Su-35 when China has better option like J-11D? I think I need not tell you the answer where these 24 Su-35 will go to.

And please do not ask for comfirmation of China purchase 24 Su-35 transfer to PAF. Since this is an under table deal. There will not be any official statement regards the transfer. You will see it when these Su-35 started working on PAF airbase or spotted with PAF ensign. By going these route, Russian can shelve all problem to the Chinese and need no answer to India allegation of export advance weapon system to Pakistan while at the same time opening up another market for its shrinking aviation export and market the Su-35 for more potential customers.
 
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Look, there are rumors stating that the Chinese are retrofitting their alleged new Su-35s with Chinese avionics, sensors, and weaponry, leaving only the engines as the major Russian component. That doesn't seem like as if they are going to resell them.
 
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Look, there are rumors stating that the Chinese are retrofitting their alleged new Su-35s with Chinese avionics, sensors, and weaponry, leaving only the engines as the major Russian component. That doesn't seem like as if they are going to resell them.
India will definitely press Russia to stop all logistic support to PAF Su-35. Retrofit them with Chinese avionice and then sell to PAF, so PAF will then continue have Chinese logstic support and uses Chinese ammunition. Problem solves.
 
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India will definitely press Russia to stop all logistic support to PAF Su-35. Retrofit them with Chinese avionice and then sell to PAF, so PAF will then continue have Chinese logstic support and uses Chinese ammunition. Problem solves.

Yeah, but it's hard to believe that neither Russia nor India had forseen this, not to mention that a retrofit like that will cost the PAF significantly more than if they had purchased them directly from Moscow. The fact that India was relatively silent during supposed Russian-Chinese negotiations leads me to believe that Pakistan isn't involved.
 
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Yeah, but it's hard to believe that neither Russia nor India had forseen this, not to mention that a retrofit like that will cost the PAF significantly more than if they had purchased them directly from Moscow.
China will finance part of this deal, they want a capable PAF able to defend Gwadar port.
 
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I know many will think my conclusion is daring and outrageous but please read through my well thought analysis. From the events to date, you all can slowly see how the even unfold and how are they related one to another especially the date are so close

First of all, lets look at this event
Pakistan set to sign 40-year lease for Gwadar port with Chinese company: officials - The Express Tribune

President Xi visit Pakistan in april 2015 to sign the mega USD46 billion deal that is one of the largest and most ambition plan for China Pakistan. A plan China hope can boast Pakistan economy while at the same time ,make China less reliance on Strait of Malacca for import of fuel. Despite the massive investment, Pakistan is a sovereign nation and regards to responsible of protecting Gwadar port still lies on Pakistan.

The best way to protect this port is to have an fighter aircraft capable of neutralise coming airthreat from huge Indian Ocean while at the same time capable of striking the enemy at a projected range. These puts Su-27 series aircraft in the foreline. It is an aircraft with exceptional range given its huge size, massive payload of at least 9tons ammunition carries. Most of all, a very agile aircraft despite it huge airframe. The twin engine will also ensure better survival in case one engine breaks down. Su-35 touted the most advance Sukhoi series with air superiority, ground and sea attack is an attractive option for PAF. While we do know China produces the Su-27 series aircraft domestically under J-XX series with license from Russian for 200 airframe. But in terms of license issue interpretation to China and Russian is always an issue for both in the 2000s times. It was finally settle in 2008 when Russian president Dmitry Medvedev visited China and both agree on the issue. China was allowed to continue produce as much J-XX series of Su-27 lineage as she deemed but not allow to export any of this lineage to compete with Russian.
Russia and China Dispute Intellectual Property - Kommersant Moscow
This will means Pakistan is not able to get any of China modify or made Su-27 series aircraft and the only possible way to obtain such heavy weight fighter is to buy from Russian made.


Then we look at another piece of interesting news this September.
Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Russian Deputy FM comfirmed interest and talks regard to purchase of SU-35 by PAF although not much detailed is mention due to the sensitivity of selling Russian most advance Su-27 series to PAF against Russian biggest arm buyer ,India. Russian is eager to expand its shrinking aviation export and the fact, IAF is looking more towards the west with purchase of 36 Rafale. Russian needs to look at all potential customers and PAF is definitely one of them. Russian in past has export a number of weapon systems or equipment to PAF like RD-93 engines, Mi-17 and possible Mi-35 gunship with success. RD-93 engine which is critical to JF-17 project is only possible through the blessing of China acting as middle man to shut India complaint of Russia export weapons to Pakistan, India arch rival.

Finally, we look at this new.
China will get first Russian Su-35 fighters in 2016
China after talking about buying Su-35 for almost 5 years finally inked the deal recently and most importantly, the urgent timing of the delivery in 2016 plus a small amount of SU-35 purchase, raise an eyebrow.

Why China purchase only 24 Su-35 since China is such a big and rich country? She definitely needs more than 24 Su-35 if she needs to defend her land and sea. But some critics will argue China purchase a minimum of 24 Su-35 just to get their hands on reverse engineering of critical component like 117S engine. But lets look at some other facts.
国产心脏终于行了:太行发动机一技术让美羡慕 - 中网资讯中心

This is an extract from an interview with Lin zuoming, Chairman of AVIC who comment on WS-10 'Taihang" engine series. He mention WS-10 series engine in the latest version WS-10B has surpassed Russian engine technology in terms of lifespan, performance and reliability and claim the latest version of Taihang engine can produce 140Ktons while Russian 117S is just a slight mere of 142Ktons thrust as compare.
Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why would China spend so much trouble just to get an almost similar performance and spec engine? Then some critics will argue besides the engine, the other sub systems may interested the Chinese like PESA radar onboard. Lets look at another aircraft currently in development and will enter series soon.

View attachment 273536

You can see the aircraft spotted with WS-10 series engine and a slanted nose cone suggesting AESA radar. China produced J-XX series aircraft are using high level of composite and 3D printing which proves the airframe superior in any aspect compare to Russian Su-35 in terms of structure strength,weight and lifespan.

Chinese Military Aviation: Fighters II

Another aircraft with slanted cone and is due to be in service is the J-10B which comfirms spotted with an AESA radar proves J-11D has the same AESA radar(more powerful due to bigger size)from the same institute.
View attachment 273537

Then this question comes into your mind. Why would China purchase 24 Su-35 when China has better option like J-11D? I think I need not tell you the answer where these 24 Su-35 will go to.

And please do not ask for comfirmation of China purchase 24 Su-35 transfer to PAF. Since this is an under table deal. There will not be any official statement regards the transfer. You will see it when these Su-35 started working on PAF airbase or spotted with PAF ensign. By going these route, Russian can shelve all problem to the Chinese and need no answer to India allegation of export advance weapon system to Pakistan while at the same time opening up another market for its shrinking aviation export and market the Su-35 for more potential customers.
I pray for this deal to happen this way and it would be very sweet dream to factuality. May Allah give decesive strength to dear Pakistan.
 
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I understand this is a defense forum but that does not mean we need to view every development under shadows of a war. CPEC obviously may mean a lot to both the countries involved but that does not mean India will attack Gwadar port even if Pakistan is successful in another jihadi attack on India (which will be THE ONLY reason for war, atleast for India).

On the contrary, to the dislike of many Pakistanis, CPEC will help India more than it will them, atleast as far as trade between India and China is concerned. Lets face it, trade is increasing and it will continue to rise in a pretty big way between China and India. China can easily arm-twist Pak by sending its goods through CPEC to India and of course China will allow Indian goods back to China through the same route. That is the beauty of the CPEC to India. All though it is in PAK, it's China that can call the shots.

If the scenario mentioned by the OP is plausible the scenario I mention is reality. Trade is what will direct relations between India and China. Alas, China will use Pak directly and India will to but indirectly.

Hence the awesome flankers will remain with China since they actually need it to guard the sky above all the artificial islands they are building. The South China sea and dangers around it are far higher than CPEC.
 
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And please do not ask for comfirmation of China purchase 24 Su-35 transfer to PAF. Since this is an under table deal. There will not be any official statement regards the transfer. You will see it when these Su-35 started working on PAF airbase or spotted with PAF ensign..

Actually, if your conspiracy theory turns out to be true, you won't see these SU-35's in PAF's insignia. It might be that Pakistan ask (with the 40 year lease), for some "rotation" from the PLAF, or vis-a-vis. And you'll see these SU-35's in Gawader but still painted in PLAF colors, yet owned and operated by the PAF.

Or, the Chinese simply change the color scheme, etc, keep the PAF on training in China on these jets. Announce many months or a year after that they will be selling the J-16 on priority basis to Pakistan and these jets will be transferred under that cover.

All the above are speculations at this point. I don't know how true any of the above will be. Pakistan has $ 2 billion and the Russians will sell them the planes, if they asked for it. The Pakistanis are inviting Putin to inaugurate their trans-Asia gas pipeline with Russia and eventually, with other Central Russian states. So if you can invite a President of a country to cut the cake on a large Russian investment, it is common sense to know that they will ALSO sell these jets directly to Pakistan.
 
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China will finance part of this deal, they want a capable PAF able to defend Gwadar port.

Who exactly is going to attack Gwadar?
Also you won't be selling to Pakistanis.You will be leasing it to them :p:
 
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I understand this is a defense forum but that does not mean we need to view every development under shadows of a war. CPEC obviously may mean a lot to both the countries involved but that does not mean India will attack Gwadar port even if Pakistan is successful in another jihadi attack on India (which will be THE ONLY reason for war, atleast for India).

On the contrary, to the dislike of many Pakistanis, CPEC will help India more than it will them, atleast as far as trade between India and China is concerned. Lets face it, trade is increasing and it will continue to rise in a pretty big way between China and India. China can easily arm-twist Pak by sending its goods through CPEC to India and of course China will allow Indian goods back to China through the same route. That is the beauty of the CPEC to India. All though it is in PAK, it's China that can call the shots.

If the scenario mentioned by the OP is plausible the scenario I mention is reality. Trade is what will direct relations between India and China. Alas, China will use Pak directly and India will to but indirectly.

Hence the awesome flankers will remain with China since they actually need it to guard the sky above all the artificial islands they are building. The South China sea and dangers around it are far higher than CPEC.

China has already sent the J-11B/S/H to defend the SCS islands. The Su-35s were probably bought for their engines (or for evaluation/training purposes), assuming that the deal is indeed real.
 
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Who exactly is going to attack Gwadar?
Also you won't be selling to Pakistanis.You will be leasing it to them :p:

Either way, the Pakistanis get to eat one of the nicest and tastiest cakes, whether it was leased or built on custom order for them. Doesn't matter which hand you use to twist your ear, you are twisting your ear at the end.

Now twist your ear for us and tell us if it hurts more than the news of Pakistan getting SU-35's :cheers: :lol: :enjoy:
 
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Either way, the Pakistanis get to eat one of the nicest and tastiest cakes, whether it was leased or built on custom order for them. Doesn't matter which hand you use to twist your ear, you are twisting your ear at the end.

Now twist your ear for us and tell us if it hurts more than the news of Pakistan getting SU-35's :cheers: :lol: :enjoy:

I am actually glad that you are getting the Su-35
 
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