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What If 24 Su-35 bought by China are for PAF ? Just my thoughts

I know many will think my conclusion is daring and outrageous but please read through my well thought analysis. From the events to date, you all can slowly see how the even unfold and how are they related one to another especially the date are so close.

First of all, lets look at this event
Pakistan set to sign 40-year lease for Gwadar port with Chinese company: officials - The Express Tribune

President Xi visit Pakistan in april 2015 to sign the mega USD46 billion deal that is one of the largest and most ambition plan for China Pakistan. A plan China hope can boast Pakistan economy while at the same time ,make China less reliance on Strait of Malacca for import of fuel. Despite the massive investment, Pakistan is a sovereign nation and regards to responsible of protecting Gwadar port still lies on Pakistan.

The best way to protect this port is to have an fighter aircraft capable of neutralise coming airthreat from huge Indian Ocean while at the same time capable of striking the enemy at a projected range. These puts Su-27 series aircraft in the foreline. It is an aircraft with exceptional range given its huge size, massive payload of at least 9tons ammunition carries. Most of all, a very agile aircraft despite it huge airframe. The twin engine will also ensure better survival in case one engine breaks down. Su-35 touted the most advance Sukhoi series with air superiority, ground and sea attack is an attractive option for PAF. While we do know China produces the Su-27 series aircraft domestically under J-XX series with license from Russian for 200 airframe. But in terms of license issue interpretation to China and Russian is always an issue for both in the 2000s times. It was finally settle in 2008 when Russian president Dmitry Medvedev visited China and both agree on the issue. China was allowed to continue produce as much J-XX series of Su-27 lineage as she deemed but not allow to export any of this lineage to compete with Russian.
Russia and China Dispute Intellectual Property - Kommersant Moscow
This will means Pakistan is not able to get any of China modify or made Su-27 series aircraft and the only possible way to obtain such heavy weight fighter is to buy from Russian made.


Then we look at another piece of interesting news this September.
Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
Russian Deputy FM comfirmed interest and talks regard to purchase of SU-35 by PAF although not much detailed is mention due to the sensitivity of selling Russian most advance Su-27 series to PAF against Russian biggest arm buyer ,India. Russian is eager to expand its shrinking aviation export and the fact, IAF is looking more towards the west with purchase of 36 Rafale. Russian needs to look at all potential customers and PAF is definitely one of them. Russian in past has export a number of weapon systems or equipment to PAF like RD-93 engines, Mi-17 and possible Mi-35 gunship with success. RD-93 engine which is critical to JF-17 project is only possible through the blessing of China acting as middle man to shut India complaint of Russia export weapons to Pakistan, India arch rival.

Finally, we look at this new.
China will get first Russian Su-35 fighters in 2016
China after talking about buying Su-35 for almost 5 years finally inked the deal recently and most importantly, the urgent timing of the delivery in 2016 plus a small amount of SU-35 purchase, raise an eyebrow.

Why China purchase only 24 Su-35 since China is such a big and rich country? She definitely needs more than 24 Su-35 if she needs to defend her land and sea. But some critics will argue China purchase a minimum of 24 Su-35 just to get their hands on reverse engineering of critical component like 117S engine. But lets look at some other facts.
国产心脏终于行了:太行发动机一技术让美羡慕 - 中网资讯中心

This is an extract from an interview with Lin zuoming, Chairman of AVIC who comment on WS-10 'Taihang" engine series. He mention WS-10 series engine in the latest version WS-10B has surpassed Russian engine technology in terms of lifespan, performance and reliability and claim the latest version of Taihang engine can produce 140Ktons while Russian 117S is just a slight mere of 142Ktons thrust as compare.
Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why would China spend so much trouble just to get an almost similar performance and spec engine? Then some critics will argue besides the engine, the other sub systems may interested the Chinese like PESA radar onboard. Lets look at another aircraft currently in development and will enter series soon.

View attachment 273536

You can see the aircraft spotted with WS-10 series engine and a slanted nose cone suggesting AESA radar. China produced J-XX series aircraft are using high level of composite and 3D printing which proves the airframe superior in any aspect compare to Russian Su-35 in terms of structure strength,weight and lifespan.

Chinese Military Aviation: Fighters II

Another aircraft with slanted cone and is due to be in service is the J-10B which comfirms spotted with an AESA radar proves J-11D has the same AESA radar(more powerful due to bigger size)from the same institute.
View attachment 273537

Then this question comes into your mind. Why would China purchase 24 Su-35 when China has better option like J-11D? I think I need not tell you the answer where these 24 Su-35 will go to.

And please do not ask for comfirmation of China purchase 24 Su-35 transfer to PAF. Since this is an under table deal. There will not be any official statement regards the transfer. You will see it when these Su-35 started working on PAF airbase or spotted with PAF ensign. By going these route, Russian can shelve all problem to the Chinese and need no answer to India allegation of export advance weapon system to Pakistan while at the same time opening up another market for its shrinking aviation export and market the Su-35 for more potential customers.
Despite of all what is quoted I see this as nothing but conspiracy theory. If Russia wants PAF to have Flankers then they can easily permit Chinese to sell their J-xx series rather than doing this. As far as the indian factor is concerned yes the deal if happens effects india but that doesn't mean Russians are so scared of Indians that they would adopt such methods, Indians need Russians for their weapons its not the other way round.

These jets are for PLAAF as in past China has purchased Russian jets (Su-27 and Su-30) despite of their developments (J-10 and J-11) and most importantly China has a bigger threat in South China Sea. Yes PCEC is very important and PN must be strong, for that there are many things being done but this is impossible. No doubt Su-35 is a lethal bird but its a bit expensive for Pakistan at the moment and our friendship with Russia needs some more time to bear fruits like Su-.35.
 
The idea that PAF will be using Su-35 whether it is on lease or a gift or a deal or whatever, matters most. We definitely need heavier birds and state of the art avionics.
 
Look, there are rumors stating that the Chinese are retrofitting their alleged new Su-35s with Chinese avionics, sensors, and weaponry, leaving only the engines as the major Russian component. That doesn't seem like as if they are going to resell them.
And the Chinese will never be able to sell them to Pakistan as Russia will not allow it since the engines are Russian.

End of story!
 
And the Chinese will never be able to sell them to Pakistan as Russia will not allow it since the engines are Russian.

End of story!

Not everything has to be done over the counter. Russia has prohibited the resale of independently-sold engines aboard new aircraft (i.e. J-10A or JF-17) but never explicitly mentioned anything about the resale of entire aircraft. Other nations have performed this very type of transaction in the past.
 
Despite of all what is quoted I see this as nothing but conspiracy theory. If Russia wants PAF to have Flankers then they can easily permit Chinese to sell their J-xx series rather than doing this. As far as the indian factor is concerned yes the deal if happens effects india but that doesn't mean Russians are so scared of Indians that they would adopt such methods, Indians need Russians for their weapons its not the other way round.

These jets are for PLAAF as in past China has purchased Russian jets (Su-27 and Su-30) despite of their developments (J-10 and J-11) and most importantly China has a bigger threat in South China Sea. Yes PCEC is very important and PN must be strong, for that there are many things being done but this is impossible. No doubt Su-35 is a lethal bird but its a bit expensive for Pakistan at the moment and our friendship with Russia needs some more time to bear fruits like Su-.35.
The aim of russian is to make more money. you have misunderstood my thread. Now they make USD 2billion from these deal.
 
I know many will think my conclusion is daring and outrageous but please read through my well thought analysis. From the events to date, you all can slowly see how the events unfold and how are they related one to another especially the date are so close.

First of all, lets look at this event


President Xi visit Pakistan in april 2015 to sign the mega USD46 billion deal that is one of the largest and most ambition plan for China Pakistan. A plan China hope can boast Pakistan economy while at the same time ,make China less reliance on Strait of Malacca for import of fuel. Despite the massive investment, Pakistan is a sovereign nation and regards to responsible of protecting Gwadar port still lies on Pakistan.

The best way to protect this port is to have an fighter aircraft capable of neutralise coming airthreat from huge Indian Ocean while at the same time capable of striking the enemy at a projected range. These puts Su-27 series aircraft in the foreline. It is an aircraft with exceptional range given its huge size, massive payload of at least 9tons ammunition carries. Most of all, a very agile aircraft despite it huge airframe. The twin engine will also ensure better survival in case one engine breaks down. Su-35 touted the most advance Sukhoi series with air superiority, ground and sea attack is an attractive option for PAF. While we do know China produces the Su-27 series aircraft domestically under J-XX series with license from Russian for 200 airframe. But in terms of license issue interpretation to China and Russian is always an issue for both in the 2000s times. It was finally settle in 2008 when Russian president Dmitry Medvedev visited China and both agree on the issue. China was allowed to continue produce as much J-XX series of Su-27 lineage as she deemed but not allow to export any of this lineage to compete with Russian.

This will means Pakistan is not able to get any of China modify or made Su-27 series aircraft and the only possible way to obtain such heavy weight fighter is to buy from Russian made.


Then we look at another piece of interesting news this September.

Russian Deputy FM comfirmed interest and talks regard to purchase of SU-35 by PAF although not much detailed is mention due to the sensitivity of selling Russian most advance Su-27 series to PAF against Russian biggest arm buyer ,India. Russian is eager to expand its shrinking aviation export and the fact, IAF is looking more towards the west with purchase of 36 Rafale. Russian needs to look at all potential customers and PAF is definitely one of them. Russian in past has export a number of weapon systems or equipment to PAF like RD-93 engines, Mi-17 and possible Mi-35 gunship with success. RD-93 engine which is critical to JF-17 project is only possible through the blessing of China acting as middle man to shut India complaint of Russia export weapons to Pakistan, India arch rival.

Finally, we look at this new.

China after talking about buying Su-35 for almost 5 years finally inked the deal recently and most importantly, the urgent timing of the delivery in 2016 plus a small amount of SU-35 purchase, raise an eyebrow.

Why China purchase only 24 Su-35 since China is such a big and rich country? She definitely needs more than 24 Su-35 if she needs to defend her land and sea. But some critics will argue China purchase a minimum of 24 Su-35 just to get their hands on reverse engineering of critical component like 117S engine. But lets look at some other facts.


This is an extract from an interview with Lin zuoming, Chairman of AVIC who comment on WS-10 'Taihang" engine series. He mention WS-10 series engine in the latest version WS-10B has surpassed Russian engine technology in terms of lifespan, performance and reliability and claim the latest version of Taihang engine can produce 140Ktons while Russian 117S is just a slight mere of 142Ktons thrust as compare.


Why would China spend so much trouble just to get an almost similar performance and spec engine? Then some critics will argue besides the engine, the other sub systems may interested the Chinese like PESA radar onboard. Lets look at another aircraft currently in development and will enter series soon.

View attachment 273536

You can see the aircraft spotted with WS-10 series engine and a slanted nose cone suggesting AESA radar. China produced J-XX series aircraft are using high level of composite and 3D printing which proves the airframe superior in any aspect compare to Russian Su-35 in terms of structure strength,weight and lifespan.



Another aircraft with slanted cone and is due to be in service is the J-10B which comfirms spotted with an AESA radar proves J-11D has the same AESA radar(more powerful due to bigger size)from the same institute.
View attachment 273537

Then this question comes into your mind. Why would China purchase 24 Su-35 when China has better option like J-11D? I think I need not tell you the answer where these 24 Su-35 will go to.

And please do not ask for comfirmation of China purchase 24 Su-35 transfer to PAF. Since this is an under table deal. There will not be any official statement regards the transfer. You will see it when these Su-35 started working on PAF airbase or spotted with PAF ensign. By going these route, Russian can shelve all problem to the Chinese and need no answer to India allegation of export advance weapon system to Pakistan while at the same time opening up another market for its shrinking aviation export and market the Su-35 for more potential customers.

You should know that China has upgraded its own SU-27 fleet which is about 100 planes. So, instead of bringing in something from Russia to Pakistan. They can easily deploy these with PAF help or can transfer them to PAF fleet for free.

These 100 SU-27s will be enough to take down any threat that is available in Pakistan.
 
You should know that China has upgraded its own SU-27 fleet which is about 100 planes. So, instead of bringing in something from Russia to Pakistan. They can easily deploy these with PAF help or can transfer them to PAF fleet for free.

These 100 SU-27s will be enough to take down any threat that is available in Pakistan.
Didn't you read middle of my analysis? In 2008 , China and Russia agree on banning China export of any China made Su-27 series that include J-xx series. J-xx is only for China own uses. Russia is trying to protect its sukhoi worldwide market. If possible, China would have long export its J-11B.
 
bangladesh air force should buy this su-35, 2 bilion for 24 su-35 and all the nessasary armament is not a bed dill...............:cheesy:
 
I understand this is a defense forum but that does not mean we need to view every development under shadows of a war. CPEC obviously may mean a lot to both the countries involved but that does not mean India will attack Gwadar port even if Pakistan is successful in another jihadi attack on India (which will be THE ONLY reason for war, atleast for India).

Gawadar, if a war brokes out will be the prime target along with Karachi.. if u list 10 most prime locations that can get under attack during a war, Gawadar is at top. And it needs to be dealt.. and I think PAF and China both knows the importance of this port. I don't know about the SUs joining PAF or not, but Gawadar needs to get Air protection and PAF seems on it.
 
These are all speculations as yet and let us keep it that way. There are more important defense projects that are actually going on and better keep our focus on them rather than rumors. Once and IF any such deal happens, we will have all the time to discuss its details. :)

By the way @Beast yours was a nicely constructed article/opening post. Rated accordingly! Even though it is all rumor and speculation you did manage to put your point forward in a nicely constructed pattern. :tup:
 
These are all speculations as yet and let us keep it that way. There are more important defense projects that are actually going on and better keep our focus on them rather than rumors. Once and IF any such deal happens, we will have all the time to discuss its details. :)

By the way @Beast yours was a nicely constructed article/opening post. Rated accordingly! Even though it is all rumor and speculation you did manage to put your point forward in a nicely constructed pattern. :tup:
Sir i believe once India confirms the Rafale deal then real news comes from our side.
 
Sir i believe once India confirms the Rafale deal then real news comes from our side.
may be,, may be not!!
Su35 IF come ever will be primarily meant as a strike and specially naval strike platform so wont have much to do with Rafale. Anyway, these are just speculation right now and i will like to leave the discussion about its role, advantages and performance aspects for time when something actually happens. :)
 

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