What Do Indians Want From Pakistan !

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Leave India alone. Peace and trade can solve any big problems. But mumbo jumbos never seem to realise this. China and Japan will never go to war because of 600B annual trade, which no one wants to lose. If India and Pakistan prosper, next step is automatically Kashmir, where joint administration would have been possible.

So for the next 30 years, do not train terrorists, do not do another Mumbai, do not fund. And we will reciprocate. Done deal



Lol. They are and Saudis are buying weapons from Israelis

More accurately, the same reason why the Palestinians and israelis can never leave together peacefully.

Let's be real, the common Arab and Israeli hate each other more than anyone else in the world.



Kashmir was never partitioned. It was taken by force against the will of the state's inhabitants.

I think Pakistanis answer indians hate eachother more than the Arabs and Israelis do.

 

[Mamluk]

Pakistan should accept that.

When hell freezes over.

I think Pakistanis answer indians hate eachother more than the Arabs and Israelis do.

I meant Arabs and Israelis hate each other more than they hate anyone else.

Though right now it feels like they are united in their hate towards Iranians - but that's just geopolitics. Iranians can mend ties with both eventually, but the same can't be said for relation between Arabs and jews.

 

[Joe Shearer]

This generation of India elected modi... Why? We all know... I don't expect anything from such extremist nation though trade should never stop which will eventually result in normal relations (maybe)

I doubt that you know. Seriously. There could be an interesting discussion if only the average Pakistani tried to dig into the data, but then she wouldn't be the average Pakistani.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

When hell freezes over.



I meant Arabs and Israelis hate each other more than they hate anyone else.

Though right now it feels like they are united in their hate towards Iranians - but that's just geopolitics. Iranians can mend ties with both eventually, but the same can't be said for relation between Arabs and jews.

But the hatred between Pakistanis and indians can never be mended either.

 

[Mamluk]

But the hatred between Pakistanis and indians can never be mended either.

Yeah, like oil and water!
I was just referring to @Rajaraja Chola's post where he said Saudi buying stuff from Israel means Arab-Jew bhai-bhai. That's certainly not true.

 

[Lurch Adams]

Same reason why Arabs and Israelis can never have peace.

And why do you think that is so? Do you mean that peace with Israel will break up the Arab world?

 

[Kaniska]

As a Pakistani , I have lived a life of over 50 years in which India is seen as arch enemy of Pakistan and I believe it is same across the border on local level. Inside my heart I always have a wish to see normal relations between both Pakistan and India but somehow my inner wish never seem to come true because of one reason or another .

I wish to start this thread asking an honest question pointed towards Indians that what exactly they expect Pakistan to do to normalize relations ? In other words what are their complains regarding Pakistan ?

And following question is that how much India is willing to cooperate with Pakistan in making relations normal ? In other words what advantage can Pakistan have from India in case of normal relations between two countries?

Here I do like to mention that while answering my question Indians should also realize that most of Pakistanis have following complains about India :

1. India has never accepted making of Pakistan and wish to undo the Partition of 1947 and bring back Pak under Hindu dominated control.

2. India has illegally occupied Muslim majority region of Kashmir which should have been part of Pakistan, considering the spirit of Partition in which all Muslim majority regions going to Pakistan and Hindu ones going to India .

3. India is illegally stopping the water from rivers of Kashmir in negation to the Indus Water Treaty of 1960.

4. India has always been supporting anti Pakistan and separatist movements within Pakistan to either weaken or disintegrate Pakistan and making of Bangladesh and current Indian activities to support Baloch , Pashtun, Sindhi , Mohajir separatist movements and terrorist TTP is an example of this .

What do Indians have to say about these complains which Pakistanis have about them and what can they do to negate these feelings in case if Indians are willing to have better relations with Pakistan?

Lets see what kind of response I get on this thread specially from other side of the border .

It is a very good discussion to start with. Here is my answer to your specific question.

1. India has never accepted making of Pakistan and wish to undo the Partition of 1947 and bring back Pak under Hindu dominated control.

- Why did you get an impression that India did not accept Pakistan as a reality. Which of the Gov official of India has stated in any relevant situation that will imply that Indian Gov did not accept Pakistan as a reality? I know that my answer started it with a question. But it is very much surprising to get such kind of answer when i see it repeatedly from Pakistan people...Again, please do not quote me with some of the RSS member saying something silly in this post. As RSS or any other Non Government position people, does not represent the policy of a nation. Their statement are indicative of a broad policy that may be something different than what is implied.

To summarize, Pakistan is a reality and it is rocking smartly since last 70 year. Apart from some part of North India, even most of the NE and South India people do not carry such kind of aggressiveness toward Pakistan uniformly.India may not like Pakistan for some different reason but the reason is not for your existence as a nation....

2. India has illegally occupied Muslim majority region of Kashmir which should have been part of Pakistan, considering the spirit of Partition in which all Muslim majority regions going to Pakistan and Hindu ones going to India .

- Every one knows the official stand of GoI. I do not want to repeat the same story again. The point is Pakistan is not smart enough capture Kashmir and lost in its effort to win it. It is as simple as you may have different excuses. Like the creation of Pakistan itself is a smart and surprise move by Mr Jinah, in the same vein, integrating Jammu Kashmir with India is sign of smartness and shows the capability of India to take control of the situation. Your argument is valid and i respect it in my personal capacity. But honestly, Pakistan missed the boat to occupy Kashmir valley in 1948.

3. India is illegally stopping the water from rivers of Kashmir in negation to the Indus Water Treaty of 1960.

- Again, there is a lot of hype and little substance to this issue. Pakistan went of International court and some ruling has happened. Why such kind of perception is getting created when there is a mechanism to settle the issue. If international court is stipulating something and India is not abiding by the rule, then it may be an issue. But if it s not the case, then i do not see any problem.

Let me have my own narrative of your concern. To understand correctly, Pakistan do not want India to have any mechanism or opportunity where water from Indus can be controlled by India. But think logically, if India has a chance to control the resources, why it will loose this option to have additional layer of control on rivers? As long as India go by the rule book of river treaty, Pakistan has no locus standi to complain about. And knowing well, that Pakistan will always interfere in Kashmir, so India will never loose any opportunity to have score points through many dams on its river.

4. India has always been supporting anti Pakistan and separatist movements within Pakistan to either weaken or disintegrate Pakistan and making of Bangladesh and current Indian activities to support Baloch , Pashtun, Sindhi , Mohajir separatist movements and terrorist TTP is an example of this .

- I am not sure how much Indian RAW is powerful enough to really substantiate your claim. For a moment, let us accept that you are true. Then i would say that these are the after effects or counter balance by India by knowing well that Pakistan will keep on interfering in Kashmir. Pakistan started raiding Kashmir valley since 1948. So your intent was clear from the beginning to have a aggressive relationship with India..And once you open up a chance to interfere in other nation, then you do not have any control of how the other parties will respond to you. This is the same story for India too..

So in all of these points, one thing for sure. We absolutely have no issues with people or nation of Pakistan..Rather, i would like to see all the South Asian nations should develop together with mutual cooperation. I can very well understand and agree to some extent with your claim on Kashmir Valley, but rather than blaming India, you should blame your political or Army leadership who could not win Kashmir for you. No nation on earth today, would just give away a part of the territory due to some people do not like to stay in my country. Pakistan never allowed BD to be a separate nation with out a bloody war with death of hundreds of people..So if Pakistan is really would like to go for a kill in Kashmir, then things will remain as it is today forever.

 

[AshishDelhi]

Indian govt - Dawood, Hafiz and maulana Masood. MFN status.
Indian girls - Fawad khan, some suits and juttis.
Men - Meat, road trip to northern Pakistan. No probhition on carrying liquor.

And a permanent dementia on Kashmir. Status quo.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would say that I would like to see normal relations with India, and both countries cooperating in trade and competing in sports, opening travel and tourism - like normal neighbors.
Both countries have most to gain, and very little to lose. However the reality is different, all our differences and events throughout history have shown us that these differences have been exploited to sow the seeds of mistrust. It's the easy way out, for both sides. To change the future, we have to change our ways - otherwise continuing the same actions and policies, and expecting different results would be tantamount to insanity. To change our ways, it needs courage - lots of courage. I think the current leadership on either side doesn't have what it takes to take this path of courage, and even if they do, some other vested interests will make sure it doesn't happen.

I think we can agree that the biggest issue between us is Kashmir. Leaving aside the UN resolutions, which are very clear as to what needs to happen, lets talk a bit practical. Neither Pakistan, nor India want to cede Kashmir - so how do we move forward, and resolve the situation?

I think we should make Kashmir a neutral zone, a self contained authority, a completely demilitarized zone, which both Pakistan and India agree on honoring its neutral status. Both Pakistan and India fund it 50-50%, representatives from the region itself and some special appointees from Indo-Pak manage the administration. Legitimate residents would get "citizenship" status, and could open businesses and look for jobs in the entire Kashmir region. Residents of India and Pakistan would get special "tourist" visas to visit and freely roam the entire region. Currencies of both India and Pakistan would be readily accepted everywhere, and trade would be allowed to move freely to Kashmir from both countries. And a treaty would be signed to make it happen, and we may call it the Kashmir Peace Treaty, with UN making a special session to mark the occasion

Do you think it will be something that we could live in peace with? Would it help both the countries, and help bridge years of mistrust, and start a new courageous way forward?

I sure do hope we can work things out for the greater good.

To be truthful, I think that the Pakistani feeling towards India is far deeper than Kashmir seems to indicate; it is misleading to hope that Kashmir contains all the toxin in the relationship and removing it will remove the toxin.

In my opinion, it stems from identity. As long as Pakistanis form their identity around their difference in religion from the majority of Indians, on their being Muslim, there will be a need, however it is articulated, of achieving parity with the 'other'; in this case, a perverse version of the significant other. This identifier is a hang-over of the past, when two communities lived cheek to jowl with each other, one enjoyed the ear of the ruler and dominated the other, and then the ruler changed, all that comfortable sense of superiority vanished, and the future suddenly looked bleak and forbidding.

When I say this, it is to be remembered that within that, within the country, at individual, at family, at local community levels, relations were not tense and hostile on a day to day basis; that is why two religions could co-exist, because of a mutual accommodation of each other's singularities. It was only when mullahs and social leaders started worrying about their loss of influence and social status that others got involved.

There was a Hindu counterpart to this, naturally.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

And why do you think that is so? Do you mean that peace with Israel will break up the Arab world?

Arab and Israeli hate aside, as time goes on, Pakistan's ultimate future lies with China and the nations West of us. This will all but grow. There is nothing good or beneficial of there being a relationship between Pakistan and India.

 

[Lurch Adams]

Arab and Israeli hate aside, as time goes on, Pakistan's ultimate future lies with China and the nations West of us. This will all but grow. There is nothing good or beneficial of there being a relationship between Pakistan and India.

The nations west of Pakistan (except for the GCC and Turkey) are all extremist hell-holes. Turkey currently has its hands full and picking fights on Pakistan's behalf is the last thing on their agenda. And even GCC has no value except oil. China of course can be a benefactor, and also provide diplomatic support. But can a country of 200 million depend on one country's good grace?

But seriously, I am curious. Why do you think that good relations with India will harm Pakistan?

 

[Photon]

One word answer is "Nothing".

Indians want nothing from Pakistan.

Only Pakistan wants, things, which India can not give.

1. Pakistan wants Kashmir from India.

2. Pakistan wants Siachen from India.

3. Pakistan wants Sir Creek from India.

4. Pakistan wants water from India.(Although already 80 % of water from Indus water system has been given to Pakistan)

India - Pakistan relations would only become normal , when Pakistan curbs it desire for "more".

 

[hanuman]

so the question says what India wants from Pak ??

we both want something from each other .

but the problem is that slowly from 1947
India has become much more
economically strong
populated
militarily strong etc

and Pakistan expects India to come on
negotiating table
and talk to them as equals

the thing is
may be we were somewhat comparable till 1980s

but now the diffrence is huge

unless Pakistan acepts this
relations are not going to improve

Pakistan cant talk like equals anymore

but if Pakistan doesnt accept this thing, for another 50 years

then the diffrence between our capabilities will be so huge
that we wont even feel like sitting on the same table with Pakistan
for negotiations

 

[Joe Shearer]

As a Pakistani , I have lived a life of over 50 years in which India is seen as arch enemy of Pakistan and I believe it is same across the border on local level. Inside my heart I always have a wish to see normal relations between both Pakistan and India but somehow my inner wish never seem to come true because of one reason or another .

I wish to start this thread asking an honest question pointed towards Indians that what exactly they expect Pakistan to do to normalize relations ? In other words what are their complains regarding Pakistan ?

And following question is that how much India is willing to cooperate with Pakistan in making relations normal ? In other words what advantage can Pakistan have from India in case of normal relations between two countries?

Here I do like to mention that while answering my question Indians should also realize that most of Pakistanis have following complains about India :

1. India has never accepted making of Pakistan and wish to undo the Partition of 1947 and bring back Pak under Hindu dominated control.

2. India has illegally occupied Muslim majority region of Kashmir which should have been part of Pakistan, considering the spirit of Partition in which all Muslim majority regions going to Pakistan and Hindu ones going to India .

3. India is illegally stopping the water from rivers of Kashmir in negation to the Indus Water Treaty of 1960.

4. India has always been supporting anti Pakistan and separatist movements within Pakistan to either weaken or disintegrate Pakistan and making of Bangladesh and current Indian activities to support Baloch , Pashtun, Sindhi , Mohajir separatist movements and terrorist TTP is an example of this .

What do Indians have to say about these complains which Pakistanis have about them and what can they do to negate these feelings in case if Indians are willing to have better relations with Pakistan?

Lets see what kind of response I get on this thread specially from other side of the border .

Coming to your four points about what Pakistanis don't like about India.

1. India has never accepted making of Pakistan and wish to undo the Partition of 1947 and bring back Pak under Hindu dominated control.

Some Indians do think that way, sadly. They are opposed by others, and there is a huge majority who don't think about the issue at all. But there is a serious and fundamental disagreement between that minority of Indians who would like to see Pakistan get into trouble and those who wish Pakistan would go ahead and prosper. At the moment, the unfriendly ones are in power. I can only suggest patience.

2. India has illegally occupied Muslim majority region of Kashmir which should have been part of Pakistan, considering the spirit of Partition in which all Muslim majority regions going to Pakistan and Hindu ones going to India .

That was never the agreement.

3. India is illegally stopping the water from rivers of Kashmir in negation to the Indus Water Treaty of 1960.

How did this impression get around? India is not allowed to withhold water, and is not doing so. There are several constructions going on, each of them based on using the flow of water to generate electricity. Why don't those who are worried look up the treaty,

4. India has always been supporting anti Pakistan and separatist movements within Pakistan to either weaken or disintegrate Pakistan and making of Bangladesh and current Indian activities to support Baloch , Pashtun, Sindhi , Mohajir separatist movements and terrorist TTP is an example of this .

If you asked Ajit Doval, he could give a different picture. The true picture.

These are unlikely to be satisfactory; but only getting to know the Indian situation at greater depth will carry conviction.

 

[Lurch Adams]

And this 80% is wasted because Pakistan has very little infrastructure to store the freshwater. It simply flows into the Arabian Sea. Instead of beating their chests about India's intentions about the Water Treaty, Pakistanis would be better served by confronting their government as to why it simply lets the water go waste.

Dont you think that if it is Pakistani water then India should NOT worry whether this water is wasted in Pakistan or not ? Dont you think that making dams on 3 Pakistani rivers will create problems for Pakistan even if they try to make dams or ways to store water? Besides India has its own enough rivers and water resources to look after . Why to bother about pakistani water resources unless there are intentions to harm Pakistan ?

Sorry did not see your response earlier as it was not marked.

Pakistan have had all the time to build dams. If it can show reliable plans for water storage and usage over the next decade, then yes, the Treaty should be honoured. If not, then freshwater is too precious a commodity for someone to say it is mine and therefore I can waste it if I want.

Indian govt - Dawood, Hafiz and maulana Masood. MFN status.
Indian girls - Fawad khan, some suits and juttis.
Men - Meat, road trip to northern Pakistan. No probhition on carrying liquor.

And a permanent dementia on Kashmir. Status quo.

Awesome!