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VIEW : Siachen: a costly war for Pakistan and India

No Sir, you are totally wrong and your perceptions are inconsistent with ground realities and the demands of international law.

You underestimate Pakistan's ability and capability.

Linking Siachen with Junagarh and Manavadar or Hyderabad highlights your il-conceived historical perspective and Pakistan's stand thereof.

We have taken almost 35 % of Kashmir which is with us - has the Indians taken it back except this portion of Siachen and a couple of more little posts in some sectors.

China has taken a large portion of land from India in Kashmir. Has the Indians been able to take it back from them.

Have a heart sir and open your eyes to the ground realities as they exist, instead of presenting such poor arguments.

Maybe you are right...
but then again.. the same could also be said to you.

Your views are based on laws to the letter T..
which has never been the case where the territorial disputes between the two nations.
You are also nitpicking on an observation which is fairly simple in nature.
That territorial issues have NEVER gone Pakistans way both legally and illegally.
Whatever the nature of these disputes, we have LOST at the end.

Op Gibraltar.. an unprovoked violation.
Kargil.. an unprovoked violation..
both by men only seeking glory.. and having little to do with giving benefit to Pakistan.
Men who had little idea of the actual ground realities and were too interested in seeing Utopia.
 
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:lol: how difficult is it becoming for Pakistanis to state what they want to.. :rofl:

Cant even say that Kashmir is theirs :lol:

Jab dil mein chor hota hai to aawaz nahin nikalti ;)

Because it is not only the land, it is about the wishes of millions of Kashmiris.

For you it probably does not make any difference and you probably do not understand such things as well - like the wishes of the people. There is an article in the Indian constitution about the special status of IOK.

Did you provide all the facilities to the IOK people which your constitution says. You didn't.

Even Indian ex PM Vajpayee said, before these elections all previous elections in IOK were rigged.

People's wishes in the world's biggest democracy. wow.
 
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Because it is not only the land, it is about the wishes of millions of Kashmiris.

For you it probably does not make any difference and you probably do not understand such things as well - like the wishes of the people. There is an article in the Indian constitution about the special status of IOK.

Did you provide all the facilities to the IOK people which your constitution says. You didn't.

Even Indian ex PM Vajpayee said, before these elections all previous elections in IOK were rigged.

People's wishes in the world's biggest democracy. wow.

You are still dodging the question?? Who is the rightful owner of J&K ...?? India or Pakistan ?
 
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Maybe you are right...
but then again.. the same could also be said to you.

Your views are based on laws to the letter T..
which has never been the case where the territorial disputes between the two nations.
You are also nitpicking on an observation which is fairly simple in nature.
That territorial issues have NEVER gone Pakistans way both legally and illegally.
Whatever the nature of these disputes, we have LOST at the end.

Op Gibraltar.. an unprovoked violation.
Kargil.. an unprovoked violation..
both by men only seeking glory.. and having little to do with giving benefit to Pakistan.
Men who had little idea of the actual ground realities and were too interested in seeing Utopia.

Honestly, Oscar majority of Indians would turn around and say lets convert the LoC into the international border (while this may not be our best case scenario) and get on with it. It is seriously ridiculous to maintain the level of operational readiness in the scales we are currently doing. Then open up the Kashmir borders with multiple entry points so that people can move up and down without travel issues on their respective passports and visa on arrival valid for Kashmir. and no security checks or fear of crackdowns or bandhs.

But then this will take atleast 30 years more.
 
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Maybe you are right...
but then again.. the same could also be said to you.

Your views are based on laws to the letter T..
which has never been the case where the territorial disputes between the two nations.
You are also nitpicking on an observation which is fairly simple in nature.
That territorial issues have NEVER gone Pakistans way both legally and illegally.
Whatever the nature of these disputes, we have LOST at the end.

Op Gibraltar.. an unprovoked violation.
Kargil.. an unprovoked violation..
both by men only seeking glory.. and having little to do with giving benefit to Pakistan.
Men who had little idea of the actual ground realities and were too interested in seeing Utopia.

The success or failure of efforts does not mean that we should drop our pants and wait for the fait-accompli.

Fighting for ones freedom is not merely seeking glory. It is seeking freedom.

I am sorry, I have serious differences with your view point.
 
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No Sir, you are totally wrong and your perceptions are inconsistent with ground realities and the demands of international law.

You underestimate Pakistan's ability and capability.

Linking Siachen with Junagarh and Manavadar or Hyderabad highlights your il-conceived historical perspective and Pakistan's stand thereof.

We have taken almost 35 % of Kashmir which is with us - has the Indians taken it back except this portion of Siachen and a couple of more little posts in some sectors.

China has taken a large portion of land from India in Kashmir. Has the Indians been able to take it back from them.

Have a heart sir and open your eyes to the ground realities as they exist, instead of presenting such poor arguments.


Listen to your own advice- the ground realities undoubtedly favour India and hence all your classroom theoretical views are null and void. The situation is what it is and I can't see it ever changing unless something mammoth happens.
 
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Honestly, Oscar majority of Indians would turn around and say lets convert the LoC into the international border (while this may not be our best case scenario) and get on with it. It is seriously ridiculous to maintain the level of operational readiness in the scales we are currently doing. Then open up the Kashmir borders with multiple entry points so that people can move up and down without travel issues and security checks or fear of crackdowns or bandhs.

None of this is possible without trust.. which frankly does not exist... We need to learn to live like neighbors first before even attempting to solve any of the contentious issues..
 
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The success or failure of efforts does not mean that we should drop our pants and wait for the fait-accompli.

Fighting for ones freedom is not merely seeking glory. It is seeking freedom.

I am sorry, I have serious differences with your view point.

Rhetoric pure rhetoric-there is no substance behind these words.
 
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I will re-post what I posted earlier for your lordship .......

The Indian invasion of Indian Occupied Kashmir started much earlier than the Pathan intrusion and Pakistan Army’s involvement. It was all started by and planned in meetings between rulers of Alwar, Kapurthala and Patiala etc with Maharaja of Kashmir with complete knowledge of Indian Hindu political leaders and their supporters in Indian government.

However, many of us do not even know that after the pogrom in Punjab where Muslims were killed in millions in order to ethnically cleanse the areas and change the demography, where did these marauding Hindu and Sikh hordes were sent to? Indians wouldn’t know or probably wouldn’t want to acknowledge it – these hordes were sent to Jammu to loot, rape, abduct and kill Muslims.

As planned, in the initial instance, they intended to ethnically cleanse areas of Jammu where Muslims were in minority. Between July and October 47, over 500,000 Muslims were thrown out of their homes, out of which 200,000 thousand were killed and about 300,000 were forced to emigrate to Pakistan. This was the first stage of this operation. The Pathans came to safeguard the Muslims from hordes of marauding Sikhs and fundamentalist Hindus and Pakistan Army moved in later when Indian Army had already invaded IOK.

All fabricated lies.. This is how it came down from the words of Dr Shabir Choudry

Some people in order to justify the ‘Tribal Invasion’ claim that the tribesmen came there to help Muslims who were being butchered by Hindus and Sikhs in Jammu. This story is totally wrong; and is advanced only to provide a cover to the atrocities of these savage tribesmen. Communal riots started in Jammu in third week of August 1947 when non Muslims uprooted from Pakistani Punjab poured in to Jammu from Sialkot and Gujrat areas. Horror stories and condition of these ‘migrants’ provided fuel required to start riots and non Muslims from outside the State also took part in these riots in which Muslims were the main target.

If aim of this tribal attack was to help Muslims who were killed in riots then they should have proceeded towards Jammu where Muslims were in minority. They could have entered the State territory from Sialkot which is only about 28 miles from Jammu or from Gujrat. Furthermore, why did they wait till 22 October (two months) before they launched this tribal attack, Muslims of Jammu needed urgent help in August 1947, but Pakistani government and these Tribesmen did not make any move, they did not even issues a statement against these riots.

The reason for this is that until mid October 1947, Pakistani authorities were under this impression that the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir will accede with Pakistan; and by helping Muslims of Jammu (when they were under attack) or by speaking in their support the Government of Pakistan did not want to annoy the Maharaja and risk losing Jammu and Kashmir. However, when Pakistani government realised that the Maharaja did not want to join Pakistan and wanted to remain independent; and he even refused to allow Mohammed Ali Jinnah to visit Srinagar for a holiday, they decided to teach him a lesson.

Pakistani government was really annoyed and felt humiliated and let down. They decided to punish the Maharaja and take over Kashmir by force. In complete violation of the Standstill Agreement they stopped all the essential supplies including food and oil entering the State; and despite repeated requests from the Maharaja government, Pakistan did not allow resumption of supplies of essential goods to Jammu and Kashmir.

To make matters worse for the Maharaja, Pakistan government encouraged a rebellion in Poonch where Muslims were very resentful. Muslim soldiers who took part in the Second World War had returned to their homes and were more conscious of their rights and use of gun. Furthermore Pakistan accused the Maharajah government for attacking Pakistani territory; and demanded that either the Maharaja or his Prime Minister should immediately visit Karachi (Pakistan) to resolve these issues.

The Maharaja denied these charges, and said how his small army (8000, in total and scattered in various parts of the State) could attack Pakistan; and for what purpose he would do that. Both governments exchanged telegrams to resolve these issues between second week of October and 19th October 1947; and the Maharaja suggested to set up a Joint Commission to investigate these matters. Pakistani government showed no interest in any kind of investigation or any Commission; and while these communications were going on, Pakistan assembled tribesmen from North West Frontier in name of Jihad and attacked the Valley of Kashmir which had overwhelming Muslim majority, and where there were no riots and Muslims were not under attack.

Clearly the aim was not to help surrounded Muslims of Jammu, but to punish the Maharaja by capturing his capital – Srinagar. As noted earlier if the aim was to help Muslims of Jammu then the tribesmen should have been directed to Jammu Province via Sialkot and Gujrat; and that attack should have taken place in August 1947, and not on 22 October.

In this brutal attack non Muslims were the main target – their men were systematically killed, their women were raped and kidnapped and taken back to North West Frontier. Their houses were burnt; however, the tribesmen showed great equality when it came to looting- they looted everyone; even those items which were stored in a Masjid (Mosque) by Muslims and non Muslims hoping that Muslim tribesmen will not loot their belongings from a place of worship, were also looted. Any Muslim who tried to protect non Muslims and criticised these tribesmen were also killed on spot. It is believed that more than 30 thousands people lost their lives in this brutal attack.

To us 22 October is rightly called a Black Day, but to rub salt in our wounds, and to hide their crimes, imperialists of Pakistan and their foot soldiers camouflaged their crimes in name of religion and fabricated false stories to justify their atrocities and naked aggression. Sad thing is that these people have not learnt anything, and they still continue to promote those policies which divide people in name of religion; and time has come that we people of Jammu and Kashmir stand up and be counted.
 
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The success or failure of efforts does not mean that we should drop our pants and wait for the fait-accompli.

Fighting for ones freedom is not merely seeking glory. It is seeking freedom.

I am sorry, I have serious differences with your view point.

Here is the thing. Its tit for tat. You start something in Kashmir, then moral support starts for Sindh and Balochistan. As if FATA and SWAT were not enough for you to handle.
 
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Honestly, Oscar majority of Indians would turn around and say lets convert the LoC into the international border (while this may not be our best case scenario) and get on with it. It is seriously ridiculous to maintain the level of operational readiness in the scales we are currently doing. Then open up the Kashmir borders with multiple entry points so that people can move up and down without travel issues and security checks or fear of crackdowns or bandhs.

According to Indian military strategy, deterring defence against Pakistan and dissuasive defence against China, the currently deployed around 80% of Indian forces would never be removed from Pakistani borders even if Kashmir is resolved.

You guys talk rhetoric. probably because you do not know about your own stuff in the manner.

Here is the thing. Its tit for tat. You start something in Kashmir, then moral support starts for Sindh and Balochistan. As if FATA and SWAT were not enough for you to handle.

kon rok raha hai tumhein.

shuru karo.
 
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The success or failure of efforts does not mean that we should drop our pants and wait for the fait-accompli.

Fighting for ones freedom is not merely seeking glory. It is seeking freedom.

I am sorry, I have serious differences with your view point.

Perhaps that freedom must be sought from our own self created demons first.. those that shoot 14 yr old school girls.
Before one decides to go freedom fighting against a well equipped, well prepared.. well versed.. and superior adversary.
the oft heard saying of "If you fail, try again" is only good if you actually try with better preparation and better planning.

Since neither our Government,Diplomatic corps or the military has ever demonstrated dithering from their preferred line of making the same mistake.. again and again... I see your sermon on efforts useless.
The efforts are misdirected and misplaced.. they need to focus on our mistakes first before searching for those by the adversary.

Otherwise, you have lost the game before you even shook your dice.
 
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Shabbir Chaudhary is an A$$. Whatever I said is correct and is factual and is available for reference.

Tum karo to chamatakar, hum karen to balatkar. Refute point by point if you disagree.. otherwise :wave:
 
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