VIEW : Siachen: a costly war for Pakistan and India

[Ticker]

Perhaps that freedom must be sought from our own self created demons first.. those that shoot 14 yr old school girls.
Before one decides to go freedom fighting against a well equipped, well prepared.. well versed.. and superior adversary.
the oft heard saying of "If you fail, try again" is only good if you actually try with better preparation and better planning.

Since neither our Government,Diplomatic corps or the military has ever demonstrated dithering from their preferred line of making the same mistake.. again and again... I see your sermon on efforts useless.
The efforts are misdirected and misplaced.. they need to focus on our mistakes first before searching for those by the adversary.

Otherwise, you have lost the game before you even shook your dice.

Agreed that we have to fight the demons within our selves as well. No question about it.

But as a nation, you can not only do one thing at a time. For a vibrant and expressive nation like ours, we should be able to fight on many separate fronts simultaneously. All countries do that.

The government administers the country in the manner - various ministries doing their own related stuff while the leadership provides direction.

We have a long way to go - but I think we are on the right track.

 

[SamantK]

Perhaps that freedom must be sought from our own self created demons first.. those that shoot 14 yr old school girls.
Before one decides to go freedom fighting against a well equipped, well prepared.. well versed.. and superior adversary.
the oft heard saying of "If you fail, try again" is only good if you actually try with better preparation and better planning.

Since neither our Government,Diplomatic corps or the military has ever demonstrated dithering from their preferred line of making the same mistake.. again and again... I see your sermon on efforts useless.
The efforts are misdirected and misplaced.. they need to focus on our mistakes first before searching for those by the adversary.

Otherwise, you have lost the game before you even shook your dice.

Taking out Indo-Pak context, beautifully said..

For posterity!

 

[Ticker]

But you are just an anonymous internet forumer on defence.pk..

Yes I am. And I have an opinion.

 

[SQ8]

Agreed that we have to fight the demons within our selves as well. No question about it.

But as a nation, you can not only do one thing at a time. For a vibrant and expressive nation like ours, we should be able to fight on many separate fronts simultaneously. All countries do that.

The government administers the country in the manner - various ministries doing their own related stuff while the leadership provides direction.

We have a long way to go - but I think we are on the right track.

That comes with the implicit clause of being able to do that.
We are not able to, not with justice, not with ability..
When we do end up doing that.. its more like a bumbling fool instead of a well rehearsed act.
Kashmir needs to be frozen, just freezed..
The Kashmiris may not like it, many dont.. but at this time its in our best interests to avoid any confrontation with India and if need be (to use the rather offending expression).. we need to be "Baghal mein Churi, Mun pe raam raam".
After all, both our nations practice it in some form or the other..but only India is very good at actually "striking" with the Churi in a surgical manner..

The PA needs to back off, and re-organize itself into a complete modern fighting force.. free of whatever colonial baggage it is carrying and get rid of all the sycophantic suckups that are up its ladders. That only they can accomplish, no mere common civilian can force that.

What is needed for Pakistan is an actual "treaty of Hudabiya"..not the Musharrafi version.
If that means giving up Siachen and bruising our ego.. then so be it.
Ten years or more of rebuilding is essential for our survival..

 

[Ticker]

Tum karo to chamatakar, hum karen to balatkar. Refute point by point if you disagree.. otherwise

Come with your own point of view rather than quoting some bummer.

I can fill this forum with cut pastes. I wont, because I have an opinion which this forum gives me the privilege to post.

 

[SamantK]

Come with your own point of view rather than quoting some bummer.

I can fill this forum with cut pastes. I wont, because I have an opinion which this forum gives me the privilege to post.

What I quoted were facts, you cannot put up opinions and pass them off as facts.. High time you learn that!

 

[Ticker]

That comes with the implicit clause of being able to do that.
We are not able to, not with justice, not with ability..
When we do end up doing that.. its more like a bumbling fool instead of a well rehearsed act.
Kashmir needs to be frozen, just freezed..
The Kashmiris may not like it, many dont.. but at this time its in our best interests to avoid any confrontation with India and if need be (to use the rather offending expression).. we need to be "Baghal mein Churi, Mun pe raam raam".
After all, both our nations practice it in some form or the other..but only India is very good at actually "striking" with the Churi in a surgical manner..

The PA needs to back off, and re-organize itself into a complete modern fighting force.. free of whatever colonial baggage it is carrying and get rid of all the sycophantic suckups that are up its ladders. That only they can accomplish, no mere common civilian can force that.

What is needed for Pakistan is an actual "treaty of Hudabiya"..not the Musharrafi version.
If that means giving up Siachen and bruising our ego.. then so be it.
Ten years or more of rebuilding is essential for our survival..

Look, I agree with many of the things that you say. But probably the methodology of achieving the objectives differs. We can learn and improve while we are at it. Or we disengage and improve. In my opinion, if we disengage and seek improvement, the world is going to leave us behind and we may be playing catch up all the time. I suggest that while we are at it, continue improving as well. This has happened and is happening and can be continued.

The countries does not take a break to seek improvement.

 

[karan.1970]

Yes I am. And I have an opinion.

True.. So what's your opinion on the rightful ownership of Kashmir.. India or Pakistan ????

 

[Ticker]

What I quoted were facts, you cannot put up opinions and pass them off as facts.. High time you learn that!

What is your opinion in all this. Cut pasting is easier - continue. I am not going to even look at it.

True.. So what's your opinion on the rightful ownership of Kashmir.. India or Pakistan ????

ha ha ha .......

I have already given you my honest opinion. I don't know why don't you understand.

 

[surya kiran]

The moot question to answer ticker is are you ready for Pakistan to hurt for 65 more years talking about Kashmir? Because, there is no territory going to be given up from this side.

 

[Splurgenxs]

After all, both our nations practice it in some form or the other..but only India is very good at actually "striking" with the Churi in a surgical manner..

Nice post but...
actually since u brought this up id like to say tht its not much of "moh me ram bagal me churi" we dont use deception. Only Pakistan does to a good extent. This is my Observation..we are preety straight forward in our anger.

our policy is more like this "Saam,Daan,Dand,Bedh."

ever heard 4 styaam(diplomatic principles) , chaturstayam?

Saam=Peacefully Pacification

Daan=Monetary gratification

Dand=Punishment

Bedh=Devision and destruction.

 

[Ticker]

The moot question to answer ticker is are you ready for Pakistan to hurt for 65 more years talking about Kashmir? Because, there is no territory going to be given up from this side.

We took the territory in 48, didn't we.

We can wait. What stops us from waiting.

 

[karan.1970]

I have already given you my honest opinion. I don't know why don't you understand.

You do know why I am asking this again and again and I know why your are not answering

Its pretty awesome to see a Pakistani not being able to articulate Pakistan's claim over Kashmir.. Kind of proves India's point of view

We took the territory in 48, didn't we.

So you agree that you captured territory that belonged to India ??

 

[Ticker]

You do know why I am asking this again and again and I know why your are not answering

Its pretty awesome to see a Pakistani not being able to articulate Pakistan's claim over Kashmir.. Kind of proves India's point of view



So you agree that you captured territory that belonged to India ??

I don't know why are you asking again and again.

And it doesn't prove India's point of view.

 

[KRAIT]

Problem is people don't actually get that next ten years are crucial for their country, Kashmir brings nothing to them. More focus and money is required in other areas.

Fight on many fronts ? sure why not. BUT
Against poverty and illiteracy that is main reason of extremists, against Energy shortage, against propaganda war, against corruption and against discrimination.

Putting Kashmir file at the bottom of the pile is what actually needed for Pakistan especially when you have to deal terrorists at western front. India sidelined Kashmir by deploying its forces and decreased the extremism to an extent that now Kashmir is economically developing. It also focused on its development in other fields and regions. Now due to its economy and huge market, it is indirectly keeping many powers tilted towards it.

Kashmir is no longer discussed by many countries, even if few statements are released every now and then.

Pakistan was on right track with economic ties with India, so much work was done and suddenly, Zardari came back to Kashmir. How long you want to defame your country as India will use every opportunity to blame Pakistan for everything, saying, "Dekha, maine kaha tha ki problem Pakistan hai". This India has been doing for quite a few years especially after 26/11, OBL raid.

There is no need of India to fire a bullet if it can stop your economic development by blocking money from various funding agencies.

Guys, become stronger at economic front. You already have strategic advantage to increase your ties which may lead to increase of diplomatic power. Enough of this fighting 1000 years ideology. First think about next 10 years and the road map to achieve self-reliance.

Siachin is not the major problem. Forget it for few years just to get rid of other problems because as much time and money you waste on this region, it will affect multiple times your economy indirectly.