Vietnamese conquest of Muslim/Hindu Cham and their current situation

[Wholegrain]

You need to look further than this. Malaysia like many Muslim countries are walking a tight rope, preaching religious hate on one hand and controlling extremism on the other. Above is the percentage of Muslim who support death for apostasy. Malaysia Malay is surprising way on top of many middle east countries. Middle east sectarian intolerance is understandable due to thousands of years of sectarian war. Malay does not have blood spillage hate between their non muslim minorities. All the hate today against minorities are self fabricated and self inculcated, and not because of injury by non muslims.

Malay Muslim used to be extremely relax and tolerant decades back. Today you see more Malay woman on veiling than many years ago. Malay Muslim like many other Muslim elsewhere self radicalize and self-victimize.

There are many reasons for that. One is to unite the core race, the Malay via Islam. By inculcating intolerance, the Malay elites are screwing the mind of their people. If something goes wrong, the country could be in trouble.

Malaysia has a strange system of categorizing ethnicity.

In Malaysia, Malay ethnicity has nothing to do with blood. You just have to speak Malay, identify as Malay and believe in Islam. So since Malays get benefits under Bumiputera system, if a Chinese convert to Islam and identifies as a Chinese Muslim he will not get any benefits or be treated equally, he has to "become a Malay" and adopt Malay language and ethnicity to become Bumiputera. Only Malays are viewed as real Muslims.

I heard that because of this, some Malaysian Chinese think that converting to Islam means turning into a Malay and that by only being a Malay you can be a true Muslim.

I do not think identifying ethnicity with a religion is a good idea.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Malaysia has a strange system of categorizing ethnicity.

In Malaysia, Malay ethnicity has nothing to do with blood. You just have to speak Malay, identify as Malay and believe in Islam. So since Malays get benefits under Bumiputera system, if a Chinese convert to Islam and identifies as a Chinese Muslim he will not get any benefits or be treated equally, he has to "become a Malay" and adopt Malay language and ethnicity to become Bumiputera. Only Malays are viewed as real Muslims.

I heard that because of this, some Malaysian Chinese think that converting to Islam means turning into a Malay and that by only being a Malay you can be a true Muslim.

I do not think identifying ethnicity with a religion is a good idea.

You are right, but Chinese can get some Bumi perks by marrying Malay woman. You children will be Bumi and you can get housing subsidy via your spouse. Actually a Malayisan Chinese can easily get a Malay woman. Malay woman is not materialistic and they are quite contented.

The elites of Malay are all westernize just like those in Pakistan and they do not believe in radical Islamism. But that does not prevent them from preaching radical Islam or allow radical Islam to foment in their own countries. Malay elites know long ago the danger of radical Islamism, just like Pakistani elites.

Unfortunately, most people do not read or cannot be bothered. They are easily fooled and misguided by their politicians.

Also there are indigenous in Malaysia Borneo that are considered Bumiputera. They are mostly Christian but are undergoing state sponsored Islamization.

The intolerance nature of Islamic civilization is quite true. The most tolerant Islamic tribes are the Hui Muslim. But I have read from many sources that many other Islamic tribe considered Hui as a potential pollution.

When Uighur declared their so call "East Turkistan", the Hui were massacred. One of the reason is because they behave too "unislamic" and they are too Sinicized.

 

[Wholegrain]

You are right, but Chinese can get some Bumi perks by marrying Malay woman. You children will be Bumi and you can get housing subsidy via your spouse. Actually a Malayisan Chinese can easily get a Malay woman. Malay woman is not materialistic and they are quite contented.

The elites of Malay are all westernize just like those in Pakistan and they do not believe in radical Islamism. But that does not prevent them from preaching radical Islam or allow radical Islam to foment in their own countries. Malay elites know long ago the danger of radical Islamism, just like Pakistani elites.

Unfortunately, most people do not read or cannot be bothered. They are easily fooled and misguided by their politicians.

Also there are indigenous in Malaysia Borneo that are considered Bumiputera. They are mostly Christian but are undergoing state sponsored Islamization.

The intolerance nature of Islamic civilization is quite true. The most tolerant Islamic tribes are the Hui Muslim. But I have read from many sources that many other Islamic tribe considered Hui as a potential pollution.

When Uighur declared their so call "East Turkistan", the Hui were massacred. One of the reason is because they behave too "unislamic" and they are too Sinicized.

I have not said anything about Islam as a religion or how Islam is intolerant.

I am talking about the Malay requirement for converts to Islam to turn into ethnic Malays, which does not exist in any other country in the world. There is no requirement in Indonesia to turn people into ethnic Javanese if they convert to Islam. Malaysia has a feeling on insecurity in its society that isn't present in other Muslim countries.

The war between Hui and Uyghur in 1934 was an ethnic conflict and had little to do with religion. The Hui could just as easily claim the Uyghurs were less religious Muslims and claim that their Turkic culture is unislamic. In fact Hui from northwestern provinces are more religious than some of the Uyghur.

This is also extremely off topic. I would like everyone to stop posting about Malaysia, Manchus, Han and peoples not related to Vietnam in here.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

I have not said anything about Islam as a religion or how Islam is intolerant.

I am talking about the Malay requirement for converts to Islam to turn into ethnic Malays, which does not exist in any other country in the world. There is no requirement in Indonesia to turn people into ethnic Javanese if they convert to Islam. Malaysia has a feeling on insecurity in its society that isn't present in other Muslim countries.

The war between Hui and Uyghur in 1934 was an ethnic conflict and had little to do with religion. The Hui could just as easily claim the Uyghurs were less religious Muslims and claim that their Turkic culture is unislamic. In fact Hui from northwestern provinces are more religious than some of the Uyghur.

This is also extremely off topic. I would like everyone to stop posting about Malaysia, Manchus, Han and peoples not related to Vietnam in here.

The Malaysian government has a eccentric interpretation and definition that Malay must be Muslim.

Malaysian Malay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The war between Hui and Uyghur in 1934 was an ethnic conflict and had little to do with religion.

I will agree on your above statement. The massacre of Hui in 1934 is that Uighur feel Hui is sinicized, little about religion. I stand to change my statement in previous postings.

But my informations points to the fact of Hui being viewed as something like "unislamic" by many other tribe.

Nevertheless, I do not agree that "Malaysia has a feeling on insecurity in its society that isn't present in other Muslim countries."

Most Muslim countries are insecure and the dominant Islam sect seek to impose themselves on minorities.

 

[Soryu]

But some Viet members try to claim the Baiyue territory within the modern China is a problem with us.

It's base on ancient time when we was lived in there, but after that, Viet was forced to travel to southern due Han expansion. The rest Baiyue was staying there until now.

And yet, look at SCS, same case with your claim by historical evidence which said was discovered by your elder ...

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Below is from Wiki. I think the Vietnamese need to clean it up as it was vandalized by someone.

Cham


By 1470, the Chams had converted from Hinduism to Islam. This and their earlier attack on Angkor led the Cambodians to ignore the Cham's request for assistance when Vietnam invaded.[1]
The Cham feared an imminent Vietnamese attack, and requested that the Ming dynasty of China bring the Vietnamese back in line by force and clearly demarcate the border between Champa and Vietnam. China only verbally rebuked the Vietnamese for their invasions, which the Vietnamese ignored, proceeding to attack and destroy the Cham.[2] The Vietnamese army was reorganized to copy the Chinese army, with gunpowder weapons. Tran Thanh-tong raised a massive 300,000 army which outnumbered the 100,000 Cham army, although at a massive financial cost which drained the Vietnamese treasury 1,000 gold liang each day.[3]

The Vietnamese conducted a Genocide campaign against the Cham slaughtereing 60,000 when taking the capital. The Vietnamese committed arson and theft and burned massive parts of Champa, seizing the entire country. The Chinese Ming Dynasty records record the Vietnamese destruction of Champa. The Vietnamese enslaved several thousand Cham and enacted forced assimilation of Vietnamese culture onto Chams. The Chams informed the Chinese that they continued to fight against the Vietnamese occupation of their land, which had been turned into the 13th province of Vietnam.[4]

You do not really use the word "genocide" when there are massacre after a siege, in describing how people conducted warfare in the past. You need to look very much further and take into context of historical backdrop.

If such conduct is genocide, then all tribe in the world will be genocider.

The Vietnamese need to tidy their Wiki or you will get a lot of hate from Islamist. I do not see Vietnamese especially single out Cham for ill treatment compared to other minorities today. I do not see the Kinhs behaving especially cruel compared to their neighboring tibe in Cochin Chinois. The Kinhs need to rebut every such nonsense accusations.

But there are people who wanted to highlight how people conducting warfare in the past and frame it as "genocide", making Vietnamese look like Hitler and anti Islam.

 

[Soryu]

unfortunate, I just know that when you post this. But this is the "truth" from China:

The Chinese Ming Dynasty records record the Vietnamese destruction of Champa.

dirty play as alway to divide SEA ...

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Also I am extremely uncomfortable in many posting here describing the Vietnamese as if they are Nazi Germany type. The thread name of Vietnamese vs Cham/Muslim/Hindu make people thinks that Vietnamese intend to hammer the Cham Muslim, while the Chams are like innocent Virgin Mary, got slaughter for nothing.

In fact, the Vietnamese conquest on Song Hong plains and the Northern mountain areas employed no different methods or strategy. A lot of posting here try to paint Vietnam "genocide" Muslims.

But the fact is in the past, almost every siege will end up in massacre. The only way to prevent massacre is for the bulwark to surrender.

Also there is no evidence to show the Kinhs murder every Chams they can find. The most likely outcome of Vietnamese conquest of Mekong Delta is Vietnamese attacked nerve center of Cham empire, sack the cities and slowly the rural chams merge into Vietnamese and got assimilated.

Which tribe in the world does not sack cities? Why make it like a "genocide against Islam"?

The Vietnamese have a lot of Cham blood. I have saw photos of Kinhs in China. They look quite different from Kinhs in Vietnam. That is not something to be ashame of. That is something to be proud off.

I believe in pride of your race.

China Kinhs

Vietname Kinhs look a bit different due to Malay and Khmer blood. That is something to be proud of

 

[Wholegrain]

Also I am extremely uncomfortable in many posting here describing the Vietnamese as if they are Nazi Germany type. The thread name of Vietnamese vs Cham/Muslim/Hindu is extreme make people thinks that Vietnamese intend to hammer the Cham Muslim, while the Chams are like innocent Virgin Mary, got slaughter for nothing.

In fact, the Vietnamese conquest on Song Hong plains and the Northern mountain areas employed no different methods or strategy. A lot of posting here try to paint Vietnam "genocide" Muslims.

But the fact is in the past, almost every siege will end up in massacre. The only way to prevent massacre is for the bulwark to surrender.

Also there is no evidence to show the Kinhs murder every Chams they can find. The most likely outcome of Vietnamese conquest of Mekong Delta is Vietnamese attacked nerve center of Cham empire, sack the cities and slowly the rural chams merge into Vietnamese and got assimilated.

Who tribe in the world does not sack cities? Why make it like a "genocide against Islam"?

The Vietnamese have a lot of Cham blood. I have saw photos of Kinhs in China. They look quite different from Kinhs in Vietnam. That is not something to be ashame of. That is something to be proud off.

Wrong. Mekong Delta was in Cambodia and not Champa. In the final annexation of Champa by Vietnam in 1832, Champa had not attacked anyone for hundreds of years. Cham culture was still flourishing in the Kingdom which was a vassal state to Vietnam. Then the Vietnamese Emperor Minh Mang ordered his brutal invasion and annexation. Katip Suma then led a Jihad against the Vietnamese from Malaysia and they fought until there was no more left of Champa. I posted information about Katip Suma's war on this thread already.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Also I am extremely uncomfortable in many posting here describing the Vietnamese as if they are Nazi Germany type. The thread name of Vietnamese vs Cham/Muslim/Hindu make people thinks that Vietnamese intend to hammer the Cham Muslim, while the Chams are like innocent Virgin Mary, got slaughter for nothing.

In fact, the Vietnamese conquest on Song Hong plains and the Northern mountain areas employed no different methods or strategy. A lot of posting here try to paint Vietnam "genocide" Muslims.

But the fact is in the past, almost every siege will end up in massacre. The only way to prevent massacre is for the bulwark to surrender.

Also there is no evidence to show the Kinhs murder every Chams they can find. The most likely outcome of Vietnamese conquest of Mekong Delta is Vietnamese attacked nerve center of Cham empire, sack the cities and slowly the rural chams merge into Vietnamese and got assimilated.

Which tribe in the world does not sack cities? Why make it like a "genocide against Islam"?

The Vietnamese have a lot of Cham blood. I have saw photos of Kinhs in China. They look quite different from Kinhs in Vietnam. That is not something to be ashame of. That is something to be proud off.

I believe in pride of your race.

China Kinhs

Vietname Kinhs look a bit different due to Malay and Khmer blood. That is something to be proud of

The famous Jingzu girl "唐小媛" from China, she looks like an almost identical twin sister of the CCTV reporter "吴丹".

You are right, the Chinese Kinhs look more Chinese, while the Vietnamese Kinhs not much.

 

[qamar1990]

Do they look Hindus to you?

Cham or whatever they are, they are definitely not Hindus. They might have been in the remote past but they are no longer Hindus.

Buddy, when it does not quack like a duck, walk like a duck, rest assured, it is not a duck.

do hindus look a certain way?

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Wrong. Mekong Delta was in Cambodia and not Champa. In the final annexation of Champa by Vietnam in 1832, Champa had not attacked anyone for hundreds of years. Cham culture was still flourishing in the Kingdom which was a vassal state to Vietnam. Then the Vietnamese Emperor Minh Mang ordered his brutal invasion and annexation. Katip Suma then led a Jihad against the Vietnamese from Malaysia and they fought until there was no more left of Champa. I posted information about Katip Suma's war on this thread already.

Ok.. Mekong delta is Cambodia.

Territorial conquest is way of life for every ascending ancient empire. Which tribe did not sack and massacre cities which resist?

If Vietnamese conquest is over stretched to give a impression of Vietnam against Islam and genocidal, then the whole world is against Islam and genocidal.

If you want "genocide of Cham", it was the Khmer Rouge that did something close to it. Do we want to say Cambodian "anti Islam" and genocidal?

Cham people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Soryu]

Vietname Kinhs look a bit different due to Malay and Khmer blood. That is something to be proud of

This girl is Elly Trần, a Vietnamese model with two blood line: Vietnamese and Chinese ...

 

[Tanja]

Not related
I am adopted from the middle of China and Vietnam and even my new parents do not know I am Chinese of Vietnamese So i decided to learn both languages.

 

[StarCraft_ZT]

This girl is Elly Trần, a Vietnamese model with two blood line: Vietnamese and Chinese ...

She was very famous on Chinese forums maybe 3 years ago. Many netizens talked about her.