Vatican asked India for a religious undertaking: India refused says CBI Director

[Contrarian]

You mean Hindutva comes with its ecclesiastical hierarchy, one holy book, Sunday service, hellfire and brimstones?

Indrani, not every religion is the same way or organizes itself in the same way.

What an Organized religion essentially means is that you put your religion ahead of other religions, you show preference for people of the same faith, solidarity and take up causes for your religion.

However that is not to say that Hinduism is not organizing itself. Hindutva is an ideology that puts Hinduism first in people's minds. Everything else comes later. Concepts like ummah/aryavart can even be manufactured and/or made important enough for people to start thinking first in those terms.It takes time.

But you can clearly see it is spreading now. A decade back Hindu consciousness was not half as high as it is now.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Where did you get this picture of me Armstrong?

 

[Indrani]

Indrani, not every religion is the same way or organizes itself in the same way.

What an Organized religion essentially means is that you put your religion ahead of other religions, you show preference for people of the same faith, solidarity and take up causes for your religion.

However that is not to say that Hinduism is not organizing itself. Hindutva is an ideology that puts Hinduism first in people's minds. Everything else comes later. Concepts like ummah/aryavart can even be manufactured and/or made important enough for people to start thinking first in those terms.It takes time.

But you can clearly see it is spreading now. A decade back Hindu consciousness was not half as high as it is now.

I do not see that at all Contrarian. Hindutva is essentially about living in harmony with the world including all religions. I do not see a call from Hindutva groups to deny Muslims or Christians right of worship or considering their god lesser god. I do not see Hindutva calling for relegating people following Abrahamic religions to second class citizenship.

Hindutva doctrine is simply the antonym of doctrine of organized religions.

What is being emphasized though by the Hindu nationalist organization (not by Hindutva or even more importantly Hindu religious bodies) is resistance to the predatory practices of organized religions. Practices which lead to extraterritorial loyalties and eventually to separatism. Practices which have an external locus of control.

Your mistake in seeking equivalence between Organized religions and Hindu Nationalist Organizations is you fail to see the latter is a resistance movement to the unrelenting attacks on Hinduism by the former. Also they are nationalist organizations and not religious bodies unlike the church.

You are equating the resistance put up by prey to the attacks by the predator.

 

[Contrarian]

I do not see that at all Contrarian. Hindutva is essentially about living in harmony with the world including all religions. I do not see a call from Hindutva groups to deny Muslims or Christians right of worship or considering their god lesser god. I do not see Hindutva calling for relegating people following Abrahamic religions to second class citizenship.

Hindutva doctrine is simply the antonym of doctrine of organized religions.

What is being emphasized though by the Hindu nationalist organization (not by Hindutva or even more importantly Hindu religious bodies) is resistance to the predatory practices of organized religions. Practices which lead to extraterritorial loyalties and eventually to separatism. Practices which have an external locus of control.

Your mistake in seeking equivalence between Organized religions and Hindu Nationalist Organizations is you fail to see the latter is a resistance movement to the unrelenting attacks on Hinduism by the former. Also they are nationalist organizations and not religious bodies unlike the church.

You are equating the resistance put up by prey to the attacks by the predator.

I know the difference. But as Hindus start to defend their religion, they become a more organized entity. That becomes Hindutva. Hindutva is not the antonym of doctrine of organized religions. It is a form of organizing Hinduism - its still evolving - as a means to counter the assault of other religions.

And yes, Hindutva does not deny and dimish the rights of other religions to second class and in that it differs particularly from Islam and Judaisim. That is good in my opinion. The people of India are not ready for that kind of Hindutva yet.

Just like Islam enters a continent using a soft approach - Sufi and becomes harder and harder - (Deoband and Wahabi) once it gets established or gains a foothold there, so must Hindutva.

 

[queerbait]

This response is not to offend any of our respected members here, so Admins please don't take offense. This is an internal matter without wanting to hurt your sentiments. You are welcome and free to follow what you believe.

And then some Indians here call me a fascist/Fanatic.

This is what I have been telling your liberal variety of Hindus all this long. But you guys just don't listen.

We see this shit all the time in northeast particularly those states that border. But no news media says anything because they are all paid for and asked to ignore by the Maino Madam Gang.

For years, we kept telling you but you guys ignored us, the Assamese, the Manipuris and the Arunachalis. Now look, you hear it from the horse's mouth. We asked you to help us Buddhists hold northeast strong, but you didn't listen to us since colonial times, when the Brits invited US missionaries and let them have a free ride.

I hope more of you Hindus open your damn eyes to this problem. It is not about one religion but the whole concept of Organized Religion (One god, one people, one book, conversion, heaven/hellfire, prophecies, sermons etc). The whole concept is a bane to our country.

It may suit middle easterners or even Europeans (who are dumping Christianity by the days), but it is a disaster in South Asia.

The individuals who have converted are not the problem; the bloody Church authorities, Vatican, CIA and their whole 'LAW and CHURCH' establishment are the problem.

An individual Christian will be no threat to you and may even respect you and us, but these Churchists and the whole 'religious leaders' of the Organized religions will never stop. They want to enslave people and rule them. To them, it is not a path to peace, salvation and liberation of spirit which is a Dharmic concept in all of our cultures; it is a means to control, induce fear and dominate.

Look at why Chinese are so wary of these conversion nonsense. They are very correct in this case.

Even the Japanese emperors had to forcefully kick out missionaries of Portugal and Netherlands who came in the guise of traders and converted poor Japanese peasants who would later invite invasions with open arms rather than standing up because of being brainwashed.

Read about why general McArthur needed to print and distribute millions of bible and invite missionaries in Japan. If America separates Church and the State, WHY did the general who is supposed to be from a secular country's military, ask missionaries and authorities to print millions of bible copies.

There are many works by Japanese scholars since 17th century when Japan opened up to trade after centuries of isolation under the Shogunate.

It is a global phenomenon.

@Chinese-Dragon please tell these guys the problem in your country.

They think I am drunk when I say such things.

Africa
South America
Southeast Asia
Japan (tried)
China (tried)

It is all the same story.

I am begging you Hindus to research on this. Please, you guys are the fortress of our nation. We are with you in this and remember, you have to stand strong. There is a reason why we all stood up strong despite centuries of war and conversion attempts.

This nation can stand strong only if you are strong and the only way you can do that is by differentiating between friendly overtures and backstabbing.

You must understand that Church authority and Secularism are essentially two sides of the same coin. One is the 'good cop' and the other is the 'bad cop'.

You all saw what happened under secularism in 10 years. There is no 'good or bad' secularism.

Secularism suited Turkey because they already followed organized religion. Plus the elements of Turkic Tengriist culture kept them sensible from the rest of the region and smart.

We never needed it. Neither you, nor sardars, nor us.

Think about it. If we needed this 'secularism', then wouldn't we have exterminated all those jewish, syrian orthodox christians, parsis, Tibetans and even first muslim settlers who came along with invasions?

If we were not tolerant, don't you think the partition would have been completed with all non-Dharmic people kicked out to either Vatican/Portugal or Arabia/Pakistan or somewhere else?

Why do you think this didn't happen?

Because our culture, yours and ours both, is tolerant in its own ways naturally.

We are waking up....but the damage has been done.Millions of poor indians have been converted to christianity both during the british rule and the years following that.Hindus which say hunduism will flourish and other crap like that have no godamm idea about ground reality. In my hometown there is a church where on each sunday Rs 50 are given to each individual attending sunday services, where the fook they got that money from.These missionaries poach on the poor sections of society with promises of monetary help and payment on attendance of church services.Hundus are accommodating , but protecting our culture against these poachers must also be made.The first and foremost step in thsi direction will be getting a uniform civil code .

 

[SrNair]

This is why we want Sangh Parivar.If we dont have Sangh Parivar or BJP we might be vanish from this earth

 

[Indrani]

I know the difference. But as Hindus start to defend their religion, they become a more organized entity. That becomes Hindutva. Hindutva is not the antonym of doctrine of organized religions. It is a form of organizing Hinduism - its still evolving - as a means to counter the assault of other religions.

And yes, Hindutva does not deny and dimish the rights of other religions to second class and in that it differs particularly from Islam and Judaisim. That is good in my opinion. The people of India are not ready for that kind of Hindutva yet.

Just like Islam enters a continent using a soft approach - Sufi and becomes harder and harder - (Deoband and Wahabi) once it gets established or gains a foothold there, so must Hindutva.

Hinduism with Hindutva (Hinduness) has been around longer than Islam and Indian history is replete with Hindus organizing together to fight off Islamic onslaught for the last 1000 years, and yet we have not seen Hinduism becoming harder and harder. It is laughable you are comparing Hindutva with Islam and live in dread of it.

In fact if a Hinduism was to turn more and more hardcore, you would have more and more artistic, scientific, and cultural explorations. It works opposite to the way Islam works.

 

[queerbait]

I know the difference. But as Hindus start to defend their religion, they become a more organized entity. That becomes Hindutva. Hindutva is not the antonym of doctrine of organized religions. It is a form of organizing Hinduism - its still evolving - as a means to counter the assault of other religions.

And yes, Hindutva does not deny and dimish the rights of other religions to second class and in that it differs particularly from Islam and Judaisim. That is good in my opinion. The people of India are not ready for that kind of Hindutva yet.

Just like Islam enters a continent using a soft approach - Sufi and becomes harder and harder - (Deoband and Wahabi) once it gets established or gains a foothold there, so must Hindutva.

Do you have any idea of ground reality, have you ever been to your village and enquired about these things, or are you one of those moderstic hindu more concerned about idealistic notions rather than reality.

 

[Contrarian]

Do you have any idea of ground reality, have you ever been to your village and enquired about these things, or are you one of those moderstic hindu more concerned about idealistic notions rather than reality.

Do tell me the ground reality.

 

[queerbait]

Do tell me the ground reality.

You are a poor familly below just above poverty level in T.N , kerala , A.P. A missionary will come to you , start with praises and advantages of Christianity , message of peace and all that stuff.But the main argument comes afterwards,hw will tell you a base price that you will get after getting converted, yearly fixed financial support, will be paid 50 to 100 rs per member of the family at each Sunday gathering, 1000 to 5000 at Christmas and other religious christian holidays. These missionaries are sent with huge cash with only one objective and i am telling you from a first hand experience....they are specifically told "get us the numbers".Here is the cash, we want x no of converts, here is the upkeep for those converts, show those who are in doubt these moolah, badmouth hinduism if still in doubt.There is this whole industry running efficiently with the sole purpose of converting people to christianity.

 

[Contrarian]

You are a poor familly below just above poverty level in T.N , kerala , A.P. A missionary will come to you , start with praises and advantages of Christianity , message of peace and all that stuff.But the main argument comes afterwards,hw will tell you a base price that you will get after getting converted, yearly fixed financial support, will be paid 50 to 100 rs per member of the family at each Sunday gathering, 1000 to 5000 at Christmas and other religious christian holidays. These missionaries are sent with huge cash with only one objective and i am telling you from a first hand experience....they are specifically told "get us the numbers".Here is the cash, we want x no of converts, here is the upkeep for those converts, show those who are in doubt these moolah, badmouth hinduism if still in doubt.There is this whole industry running efficiently with the sole purpose of converting people to christianity.

And what made you think that I am unaware of all this?

 

[Tshering22]

And what made you think that I am unaware of all this?

The very fact that you approve of such things seemingly with your words.

See, no one is advocating killing missionaries en masse or murdering them. Simply the thing is that people want to have laws that safeguard our collective cultures. Is that wrong?

 

[Indrani]

The very fact that you approve of such things seemingly with your words.

See, no one is advocating killing missionaries en masse or murdering them. Simply the thing is that people want to have laws that safeguard our collective cultures. Is that wrong?

What Contrarian wants is Christianity to retain the countries it holds and gain further territory by expanding into India and obliterating native religions. While Dharmic religions in the Dharmic spirit should play dead and be a walkover for all Abrahamic faiths. UK becomes a secular country by retaining its predatorial spirit while India becomes a secular country by allowing itself to be preyed by predators. It is all about ethos of the predator and the prey.

 

[Tshering22]

We are waking up....but the damage has been done.Millions of poor indians have been converted to christianity both during the british rule and the years following that.Hindus which say hunduism will flourish and other crap like that have no godamm idea about ground reality. In my hometown there is a church where on each sunday Rs 50 are given to each individual attending sunday services, where the fook they got that money from.These missionaries poach on the poor sections of society with promises of monetary help and payment on attendance of church services.Hundus are accommodating , but protecting our culture against these poachers must also be made.The first and foremost step in thsi direction will be getting a uniform civil code .

Actually, there is nothing going wrong with what Hindus say that you are flourishing or we are flourishing. Globally, we are.

The point what you are making is itself the proof that all these conversions will exist only till Europeans and Americans can pay money. The moment money stops, people will forget missionaries and their religion. That is how feeble it is.

Simply put, this is not a religious war, but an economic war. The way to counter all of this is by using a 2 pronged approach: develop India and give more working opportunities to the poor and down-trodden. Create jobs and make them earn their living all while start pushing for laws that disallow missionaries.

To those who advocate that the Hindus and us should not resist, try putting the same law in reverse order in Vatican, Greece or Poland.

You'll see.

 

[Contrarian]

What Contrarian wants is Christianity to retain the countries it holds and gain further territory by expanding into India and obliterating native religions. While Dharmic religions in the Dharmic spirit should play dead and be a walkover for all Abrahamic faiths. UK becomes a secular country by retaining its predatorial spirit while India becomes a secular country by allowing itself to be preyed by predators. It is all about ethos of the predator and the prey.

Its generally not good to speak on behalf of others. Just a reminder.