Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[araz]

If the priority is strike, then I imagine the PAF wouldn't need to look for more than 36-40 active fighters (with 6-12 left in storage for attrition and/or emergencies). One interesting thing about the M2K is that many companies have expertise on integrating their systems on the platform. For example, Denel integrated the Umbani (aka al-Tariq) PGB to the UAE's M2K-9.

One could even try a bespoke upgrade, e.g. Leonardo and Elettronica for the Vixen 1000E AESA radar and ELT-568 EW/ECM. That would be pretty interesting, especially if the MBDA Meteor and Exocet MM40 Block-3 could be sought (atop of Ra'ad, Umbani, H-2/H-4, Raptor-III, etc).

Woul you want to swap the dngine to RD 93MA as well for commonalitt?
A

 

[messiach]

I have not heard PAF considering IAF numerical superiority as a threat. This is my info. from 2005 when FC1 was still being developed, nowhere near induction - & things have moved on since then. The concern amongst PAF officers has always been of qualitative inferiority. That gap has been narrowed with the arrival of FC1. So its a matter of seeing the glass half-full or half-empty. J10 was never actively pursued by PAF - that is my info from 2005, yet it became a technological testbed for FC-1 & accelerated FC1 development by atleast 7-10 years. This is 'perhaps' the model for bridging the qualitative gap. Another candidate fifth gen. fighter could be used as a tech testbed & the technology can find its way in block-3 in the interim or as yet 'undisclosed-FGF' for PAF later. This will be all i would say for now.

Hi,

Off course---the perceived gap---in either form---.

Anything and everything newer would still be far ahead of the F7PG's and the Mirage 3 / 5's.

 

[araz]

I have not heard PAF considering IAF numerical superiority as a threat. This is my info. from 2005 when FC1 was still being developed, nowhere near induction - & things have moved on since then. The concern amongst PAF officers has always been of qualitative inferiority. That gap has been narrowed with the arrival of FC1. So its a matter of seeing the glass half-full or half-empty. J10 was never actively pursued by PAF - that is my info from 2005, yet it became a technological testbed for FC-1 & accelerated FC1 development by atleast 7-10 years. This is 'perhaps' the model for bridging the qualitative gap. Another candidate fifth gen. fighter could be used as a tech testbed & the technology can find its way in block-3 in the interim or as yet 'undisclosed-FGF' for PAF later. This will be all i would say for now.

I have a problem with the PAF walaas( all due respect given) you and BilalKhan777 included in that you talk in riddles sometimes and your posts leave more unsaid than said.
However the last 3 posts are different in that they show a trend to your thought process. It is quite telling that the gist of what I have understood leads me to believe that your viewpoint differs from the televised interview that the Air Chief gave. However even tallying the two creates a picture which to me at least is encouraging. We have finally been forced down the self reliance route and although there maybe a quest and perhaps enquiries for a foreign platform(ie more 16s) the main brunt of development is on looking east wards and also self reliance. This can only be good in the long run and although late in the day is welcome none the less.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi can block52 be upgraded to 72 standard ?
Thx

Yes. The Block-72 - aka V - uses the same airframe and engine as the Block-52, but you would change the radar (to AN/APG-83 AESA) and avionics.

I have not heard PAF considering IAF numerical superiority as a threat. This is my info. from 2005 when FC1 was still being developed, nowhere near induction - & things have moved on since then. The concern amongst PAF officers has always been of qualitative inferiority. That gap has been narrowed with the arrival of FC1. So its a matter of seeing the glass half-full or half-empty. J10 was never actively pursued by PAF - that is my info from 2005, yet it became a technological testbed for FC-1 & accelerated FC1 development by atleast 7-10 years. This is 'perhaps' the model for bridging the qualitative gap. Another candidate fifth gen. fighter could be used as a tech testbed & the technology can find its way in block-3 in the interim or as yet 'undisclosed-FGF' for PAF later. This will be all i would say for now.

I think the problem many of us have is understanding the notion of a 'credible threat.' No one in their right mind would say the JF-17 is superior to the F-16, Gripen, M2K, etc, but when we look at its subsystems and capabilities, we should see that it carries the same kind of technology. Yes, there are differences in performance spec, but there aren't any actual technology gaps: The F-16 has Link-16, the JF-17 has Link-17; the F-16 has AMRAAM, the JF-17 has the SD-10; the F-16 has JDAM, the JF-17 has REK; etc, etc. The JF-17 Block-III itself won't have the best AESA radar, but it will have an AESA radar like the F-16 Block-70/72, Gripen NG, etc. Thus, as long as your mainstay has the baseline technology and you have them in sizable numbers, you have a credible capability. And when you factor in the JF-17's local supply network comprising of native MRO, parts production, and partial manufacturing, which all provide longevity to the fleet in war and peacetime, it's a credible force.

 

[SQ8]

I have not heard PAF considering IAF numerical superiority as a threat. This is my info. from 2005 when FC1 was still being developed, nowhere near induction - & things have moved on since then. The concern amongst PAF officers has always been of qualitative inferiority. That gap has been narrowed with the arrival of FC1. So its a matter of seeing the glass half-full or half-empty. J10 was never actively pursued by PAF - that is my info from 2005, yet it became a technological testbed for FC-1 & accelerated FC1 development by atleast 7-10 years. This is 'perhaps' the model for bridging the qualitative gap. Another candidate fifth gen. fighter could be used as a tech testbed & the technology can find its way in block-3 in the interim or as yet 'undisclosed-FGF' for PAF later. This will be all i would say for now.

As per ACdre Rafiq, the PAF had settled on 150JF, 80 F-16 and 50pG. This is 2011 info based on his concern that due to an economy in shambles, we were having trouble affording the interest on the loans taken for JF and other systems.

 

[Zarvan]

Yes. The Block-72 - aka V - uses the same airframe and engine as the Block-52, but you would change the radar (to AN/APG-83 AESA) and avionics.


I think the problem many of us have is understanding the notion of a 'credible threat.' No one in their right mind would say the JF-17 is superior to the F-16, Gripen, M2K, etc, but when we look at its subsystems and capabilities, we should see that it carries the same kind of technology. Yes, there are differences in performance spec, but there aren't any actual technology gaps: The F-16 has Link-16, the JF-17 has Link-17; the F-16 has AMRAAM, the JF-17 has the SD-10; the F-16 has JDAM, the JF-17 has REK; etc, etc. The JF-17 Block-III itself won't have the best AESA radar, but it will have an AESA radar like the F-16 Block-70/72, Gripen NG, etc. Thus, as long as your mainstay has the baseline technology and you have them in sizable numbers, you have a credible capability. And when you factor in the JF-17's local supply network comprising of native MRO, parts production, and partial manufacturing, which all provide longevity to the fleet in war and peacetime, it's a credible force.

So you are pretty much saying and confirming same thing which I was saying and I repeat old EFT from UK and Italy but upgraded to Trenche 3 have lot of chances as those countries are focused on F-35 now.

This is likely the case. I can't see them shuttering the JF-17 line anytime in the foreseeable future, so it's likely the Pakistani NGF will come in to basically replace the JF-17 way down the line. But the 5th-gen fighters on the table today are likely being sought to replace the F-16A/Bs. In regards to the off-the-shelf 5th-gen fighter, he said "talks with 2-3 countries" ... in any case, I think we'll find out more in a follow-up interview from Alan Warnes et. al.

In terms of new off-the-shelf fighters, why limit to 5th-gen designs? That's a very small pool of available jets. I wonder if what was meant was late 4.5-gen fighters such as the Typhoon Tranche 3, F-16 Block-70, Gripen NG, etc.

So finally you say exactly what I am saying WOW Sir where were you when I was getting bashed for sometime now and Sir yes PAF guys raised the issue of old EFT with UK Air Chief during his visit and also it was discussed with Italy during PAF boss last year visit to Italy and by the way Attaullah Esa Khan Khelvi was at PAC to entertain French delegation. I wonder why would PAC invite French Delegation if they were here only for economy related activity

@Arsalan @Path-Finder

 

[el nino]

As per ACdre Rafiq, the PAF had settled on 150JF, 80 F-16 and 50pG. This is 2011 info based on his concern that due to an economy in shambles, we were having trouble affording the interest on the loans taken for JF and other systems.

There PDF members who have failed to realise that Pakistan is borrowing money from china to pay for the JF17.

They do not fathom that the Thunder is being sold to PAF from China.

And they have no concept of the absolute crucial link of wealth or economic strength and military spending.

The ones that appreciate these issues already know and understand where PAF s heading between now and 2024

Block 3 Thunders between 2020-2024
Used F16 + MLU
F16/52

The question is how many and timescale

 

[Centurion2016]

Yes, there are differences in performance spec, but there aren't any actual technology gaps:

That's inaccurate

The JF17 lacks serious technology over its adversary fighter fleet

No Helmet mounted Display
No HOBS missle
No IRST system
Low fuel carrying capability
Only one small Russian engine

PS the firest three critical technology gaps apply to both the PAF F16 & both blocks of Thunders

in a dog fight PAF will get butchered without HMD/HOBS

 

[salarsikander]

That's inaccurate

The JF17 lacks serious technology over its adversary fighter fleet

No Helmet mounted Display
No HOBS missle
No IRST system
Low fuel carrying capability
Only one small Russian engine

PS the firest three critical technology gaps apply to both the PAF F16 & both blocks of Thunders

in a dog fight PAF will get butchered without HMD/HOBS

And tejas has all of them yet itmis stll
Is rejected by their own services.

Jf is integrating developing into more lethal platform as we speak, while on other hand the boys are learning the limits of airframe and are developing tactics accordingly.

It is known as parallel approach as I like to call it

 

[Path-Finder]

So you are pretty much saying and confirming same thing which I was saying and I repeat old EFT from UK and Italy but upgraded to Trenche 3 have lot of chances as those countries are focused on F-35 now.


So finally you say exactly what I am saying WOW Sir where were you when I was getting bashed for sometime now and Sir yes PAF guys raised the issue of old EFT with UK Air Chief during his visit and also it was discussed with Italy during PAF boss last year visit to Italy and by the way Attaullah Esa Khan Khelvi was at PAC to entertain French delegation. I wonder why would PAC invite French Delegation if they were here only for economy related activity

@Arsalan @Path-Finder

Wait Hazrat lets NOT jump the gun. I will still retain my own thought about the EF2000 as the platform costs over £100 million per plane with this money we can fund another fighter or JF17 Blk4 with tech used in EF2000. As I mentioned the consortium behind EF2000 is now moving away from it and prioritising F35 rather than EF2000. France and UK have great engines to offer M88 and EJ200 with other nation offering great avionics.

This is my opinion so lets wait and see.

 

[Chak Bamu]

As per ACdre Rafiq, the PAF had settled on 150JF, 80 F-16 and 50pG. This is 2011 info based on his concern that due to an economy in shambles, we were having trouble affording the interest on the loans taken for JF and other systems.

Pakistan's economy is doing better and hopefully increasing growth rate to 6%+ within 2 years. If JF-17 Block III is what we think it would be, then induction must not stop at 150. We shall have 150 Thunders by mid 2021. Then what would PAC do? I hope that PAC shall have export orders and that PAF would continue to induct at least 50 more Thunders in next four years. My guess is that by 2025 fifth Generation fighter plane would be selected and tech transfer be done for parts manufacturing & local assembly. I hope that PAC stays busy far into the future and be a source of strength and pride for Pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

I have not heard PAF considering IAF numerical superiority as a threat. This is my info. from 2005 when FC1 was still being developed, nowhere near induction - & things have moved on since then. The concern amongst PAF officers has always been of qualitative inferiority.

Hi,

And that shows the " suicidal " tendency of the PAF---.

Even Chengiz Khan was ' afraid ' of the might of Shah Mohammad's armies---.

Chengiz Khan was also afraid of the might of the chin empire---

And that made him him and his generals prepare harder.

You must fear the strength of the enemy to prepare to fight it---.

 

[Arsalan]

So you are pretty much saying and confirming same thing which I was saying and I repeat old EFT from UK and Italy but upgraded to Trenche 3 have lot of chances as those countries are focused on F-35 now.


So finally you say exactly what I am saying WOW Sir where were you when I was getting bashed for sometime now and Sir yes PAF guys raised the issue of old EFT with UK Air Chief during his visit and also it was discussed with Italy during PAF boss last year visit to Italy and by the way Attaullah Esa Khan Khelvi was at PAC to entertain French delegation. I wonder why would PAC invite French Delegation if they were here only for economy related activity

@Arsalan @Path-Finder

Zarvan,
let me try and explain this to you again by first explaining my personal response to your post. Firstly, i am by no means against you, have we ever met? have you insulted my ever on the forum? have i done that to you? (and if i have i am really very sorry) Do we have different agenda when it comes to our military forces? For me, the answer to all these questions is a big fat NO!!

So why do you think i am, now more than often, found disagreeing with you?
PLEASE TRY AND READ THE COMPLETE POST BEFORE HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON AND MAY BE EVEN READ IT TWICE
It is not that i want the best things for out military but the only problem is i want to keep things realistic, at least for as long as it is possible.

If any one here, absolutely anyone here, thinks that Pakistan have an endless budget and can opt for anything and everything just because they WANT TO, well I am short of words to argue with that guy. All I can do is doubt there sanity. Even USA do not have an endless budget and they sit some 100 times higher than we do I think when it comes to military spending so I will always argue if ANYONE, not just you but anyone will come up and say that money is not a problem and that we will buy what we want. My point in argument is we will buy what we NEED. If there are two systems that have similar capability and both meet our needs and requirement, we will ALWAYS opt for the one that comes at less price. Ask that to any sane person and you will find him agreement.

As for the EFT, I am not sure where you get the message that Bilal here is saying what you have been saying. You have been saying that Pakistan is getting SU35 and Euro Fighter typhoons. You said that when our top officials met the Russians and then when they visited Italy. You said it again when they visited England. Basically, almost every time some of our top brass is visiting some other country you translate it into military hardware procurement and the worst part is that you start it mentioning as 100% credible and confirmed event while it NEVER have been the case. Some of these countries may eventually end up as a supplier of military hardware somewhere down the road but stating that the meeting was to procure certain system is a load of crap. IT NEVER WAS ABOUT GETTING THE SYSTEM. They were not in Italy to get EFT, not in UK to get EFT, not is Russian to get the SU35. Even If we get some of these goodies it is not that the visit was mainly to get these systems.

Coming back to what was said by Bilal Khan, here is his post:

Yes. The Block-72 - aka V - uses the same airframe and engine as the Block-52, but you would change the radar (to AN/APG-83 AESA) and avionics.

I think the problem many of us have is understanding the notion of a 'credible threat.' No one in their right mind would say the JF-17 is superior to the F-16, Gripen, M2K, etc, but when we look at its subsystems and capabilities, we should see that it carries the same kind of technology. Yes, there are differences in performance spec, but there aren't any actual technology gaps: The F-16 has Link-16, the JF-17 has Link-17; the F-16 has AMRAAM, the JF-17 has the SD-10; the F-16 has JDAM, the JF-17 has REK; etc, etc. The JF-17 Block-III itself won't have the best AESA radar, but it will have an AESA radar like the F-16 Block-70/72, Gripen NG, etc. Thus, as long as your mainstay has the baseline technology and you have them in sizable numbers, you have a credible capability. And when you factor in the JF-17's local supply network comprising of native MRO, parts production, and partial manufacturing, which all provide longevity to the fleet in war and peacetime, it's a credible force.

Now where do you even see the slightest of hint that PAF is buying EFT or Su35??????

What he have done is tried to explain it to you that even JF17 cannot be termed as lagging ages behind the systems you so much cherish!!! Read again, read the parts in read and may be even tag Bilal sb to explain it to you! He have quite brilliantly explained that while there may be difference is the performance and system specs of JF17 subsystems compared to those on the worlds 4.5 gen fighters, they are not generation apart. Our own JF17 have BVRAAMs, Precision weaponry for ground attach, targeting PODs and an AESA (Blk III Inshallah) like any of the other modern jets. Stating that JF17, once maintained as they are and as long as we keep working on improving the technology they use we will have a credible force. I do not see any EFT in this picture, I am surprised where you got that from this particular message. If you do not agree with what I say, PLEASE TRY AND EXPLAIN TO ME, FROM HIS QUOTED POST, WHERE IT STATES EFT as even essential for PAF let alone being procured.

The same can be said for the second post where rather than, UNLIKE YOU, saying that his facebook friends have confirmed that Uncle was in England to buy EFTs and is coming home in one of them, he uses the word “I wonder” when even mentioning other 4.5 gen fighters. Thus floating it as an open question rather than a CERTAIN FACT!! Confirming that this is not a certainty but a possibility and is open to some logically debate.

Here,

In terms of new off-the-shelf fighters, why limit to 5th-gen designs? That's a very small pool of available jets. I wonder if what was meant was late 4.5-gen fighters such as the Typhoon Tranche 3, F-16 Block-70, Gripen NG, etc.

This is how sensible people mention what they THINK!! Not with "I am sure" statements. NOTHING IS FOR SURE IN THIS WORLD BUT DEATH!!!

Now Mr. Bilal Khan will get a notification of this post as his post was quoted so i will request him to further add to this or even deny what i claimed here based on his post (that is if he never meant what i said he meant to say) and i will also tag a few other members to may be try and explain it or at least agree or disagree with what I said here.

@HRK @araz @Khafee @The Eagle @WAJsal @Oscar @Slav Defence @Bratva @Stealth

 

[HRK]

now a days Zarvan has become an evolve Nishan ....

@Zarvan there is no need for you to pretend MORE INFORMED then the other ... plz its a request

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Zarvan,
let me try and explain this to you again by first explaining my personal response to your post. Firstly, i am by no means against you, have we ever met? have you insulted my ever on the forum? have i done that to you? (and if i have i am really very sorry) Do we have different agenda when it comes to our military forces? For me, the answer to all these questions is a big fat NO!!

So why do you think i am, now more than often, found disagreeing with you?
PLEASE TRY AND READ THE COMPLETE POST BEFORE HITTING THE REPLY BUTTON AND MAY BE EVEN READ IT TWICE
It is not that i want the best things for out military but the only problem is i want to keep things realistic, at least for as long as it is possible.

If any one here, absolutely anyone here, thinks that Pakistan have an endless budget and can opt for anything and everything just because they WANT TO, well I am short of words to argue with that guy. All I can do is doubt there sanity. Even USA do not have an endless budget and they sit some 100 times higher than we do I think when it comes to military spending so I will always argue if ANYONE, not just you but anyone will come up and say that money is not a problem and that we will buy what we want. My point in argument is we will buy what we NEED. If there are two systems that have similar capability and both meet our needs and requirement, we will ALWAYS opt for the one that comes at less price. Ask that to any sane person and you will find him agreement.

As for the EFT, I am not sure where you get the message that Bilal here is saying what you have been saying. You have been saying that Pakistan is getting SU35 and Euro Fighter typhoons. You said that when our top officials met the Russians and then when they visited Italy. You said it again when they visited England. Basically, almost every time some of our top brass is visiting some other country you translate it into military hardware procurement and the worst part is that you start it mentioning as 100% credible and confirmed event while it NEVER have been the case. Some of these countries may eventually end up as a supplier of military hardware somewhere down the road but stating that the meeting was to procure certain system is a load of crap. IT NEVER WAS ABOUT GETTING THE SYSTEM. They were not in Italy to get EFT, not in UK to get EFT, not is Russian to get the SU35. Even If we get some of these goodies it is not that the visit was mainly to get these systems.

Coming back to what was said by Bilal Khan, here is his post:



Now where do you even see the slightest of hint that PAF is buying EFT or Su35??????

What he have done is tried to explain it to you that even JF17 cannot be termed as lagging ages behind the systems you so much cherish!!! Read again, read the parts in read and may be even tag Bilal sb to explain it to you! He have quite brilliantly explained that while there may be difference is the performance and system specs of JF17 subsystems compared to those on the worlds 4.5 gen fighters, they are not generation apart. Our own JF17 have BVRAAMs, Precision weaponry for ground attach, targeting PODs and an AESA (Blk III Inshallah) like any of the other modern jets. Stating that JF17, once maintained as they are and as long as we keep working on improving the technology they use we will have a credible force. I do not see any EFT in this picture, I am surprised where you got that from this particular message. If you do not agree with what I say, PLEASE TRY AND EXPLAIN TO ME, FROM HIS QUOTED POST, WHERE IT STATES EFT as even essential for PAF let alone being procured.

The same can be said for the second post where rather than, UNLIKE YOU, saying that his facebook friends have confirmed that Uncle was in England to buy EFTs and is coming home in one of them, he uses the word “I wonder” when even mentioning other 4.5 gen fighters. Thus floating it as an open question rather than a CERTAIN FACT!! Confirming that this is not a certainty but a possibility and is open to some logically debate.

Here,

This is how sensible people mention what they THINK!! Not with "I am sure" statements. NOTHING IS FOR SURE IN THIS WORLD BUT DEATH!!!

Now Mr. Bilal Khan will get a notification of this post as his post was quoted so i will request him to further add to this or even deny what i claimed here based on his post (that is if he never meant what i said he meant to say) and i will also tag a few other members to may be try and explain it or at least agree or disagree with what I said here.

@HRK @araz @Khafee @The Eagle @WAJsal @Oscar @Slav Defence @Bratva @Stealth

I concur with your forensic analysis of my previous post

It was just speculation based on the ACM's actual comments. In the video he said that there are talks with 2-3 countries for a 5th-generation fighter, which I and several others found curious because he then went on to mention that PAC would develop the PAF's next-gen fighter. So just wondered, as a question, "could ACM Sohail Aman have also meant 4.5 gen fighters?" We can speculate, but we all know he wasn't talking to a defence journalist like Alan Warnes or a defence expert, so maybe he had to make an off-the-shelf purchase sound like a big deal. Alternatively, he might have literally meant that a 5th gen fighter will be imported. We will have to wait and see, and I believe here or elsewhere I mentioned that we should wait for Alan Warnes to come up with a PAF article to explain.