US withdraws negotiators from Pakistan, no supply deal

[fd24]

Has it occurred to you, my dear friend, that some pressure makes Pakistan dig its heels in, so that it paints itself as the problem, while negotiating as well, so that USA is seen to be reasonable in trying for an accommodation.

Pakistan is painting itself into a corner needlessly, without much to show for it.

VC -Last week it was reported that the USA had negotiated "alternative routes" suggesting no more requirement of opening the routes via Pakistan. Now today we hear rumours of an official apology etc and now they withdraw their negotiators? Do me a favour and understand this BS and changing of "goalposts" will not be tolerated anymore. Forget what Pakistan is doing and what colour its painting itself - can you not for one minute see the games they are playing are pathetic. Can you not see for the betterment and long term future of our nation we need to wash them out of our system and crack on without their "aid" and constant harassment of our nation?

 

[VCheng]

............. Forget what Pakistan is doing and what colour its painting itself - can you not for one minute see the games they are playing are pathetic.

The game will be judged by the score and who is left standing at the end, not by whether the gameplay was judged to be pathetic or not.

Can you not see for the betterment and long term future of our nation we need to wash them out of our system and crack on without their "aid" and constant harassment of our nation?

Actually, I agree with that, and have said that many times too. The only important difference is that I do not think that Pakistan is ready to do that just yet. A few decades of hard work later, yes, definitely, it can be ready to do what you are saying, and I would encourage that too.

my dear VC I would say that after predicting that routes would reopen within 30 days do you not think that your self serving statements are becoming transparent and just that self serving?

A 30 day closure would have made the same point without reducing the room to maneuver that Pakistan is now clearly running out of, but I obviously made the mistake of overestimating the maturity of Pakistan's decision making apparatus.

It has not occurred to you that statement applies more to America?

You are correct in that USA's policies towards Pakistan are running out of options, but the end result is still that USA has many more options to choose from than Pakistan.

And the running out of options on USA's part may be more intentional than accidental. It won't be the first time that USA has built up the ego of country by giving it grounds to whip up nationalist fervor, only to smite it down later when the time was right.

 

[lem34]

ACTUALLY IT WAS THE OPPOSITE....YOU GUYS NEVER CARED ABOUT SOVEREIGNTY....YOU GUYS ASKED FOR MORE MONEY PER TRUCK AND THE US REFUSED TO PAY EXTRA CASH....SIMPLE

WITH ELECTIONS AROUND THE CORNER DON'T EVEN DREAM THE OBAMA WILL MAKE A PUBLIC APOLOGY TO PAKISTAN

There is no need to write in capitals. It is considered impolite. I am aware that Indian's take their role as American proxy very seriously but I do not believe you have any source other than what I would say is a misplaced sense of worship of the "omnipotentency" in your opinion of America. I also believe it is self serving

A 30 day closure would have made the same point without reducing the room to maneuver that Pakistan is now clearly running out of, but I obviously made the mistake of overestimating the maturity of Pakistan's decision making apparatus.


.

That statement does not make sense. How so ? You and Americans expected 30 days. Pakistan had to teach Americans that they cannot with impunity kill our soldiers. If Pakistan had allowed routes within 30 days it would have shown them that they were correct in their calculations. They might have done it again and again. It is unfair of you to insult the state of Pakistan because they did not comply with American or your expectations by calling the state immature.



[/QUOTE] You are correct in that USA's policies towards Pakistan are running out of options, but the end result is still that USA has many more options to choose from than Pakistan.
ht.[/QUOTE]

What through Iran? Through Russia? No through India. Americans were never good at geography as a result of media like Fox news. Maybe they think India has a border with Afghanistan lol

Stupid Americans! - YouTube

And the running out of options on USA's part may be more intentional than accidental. It won't be the first time that USA has built up the ego of country by giving it grounds to whip up nationalist fervor, only to smite it down later when the time was right.

Aww man stop speculating to the nth degree. Next you are going tell me you believe in UFO's etc

 

[manojb]

This is the last weapon of republicans against Obamas re-election. This weapon works in favor of zardari as well.

 

[lem34]

This is the last weapon of republicans against Obamas re-election. This weapon works in favor of zardari as well.

But Obama is in charge. He can dress an apology up and sell it to his people. After all Pakistan has suffered more from terrorism and even American's in the past have recognised Pakistan's contribution. Obama even admitted that some sort off lead came from Pakistani ISI that lead to Osama's demise

 

[Darth Vader]

Agence France Presse

WASHINGTON: The United States has withdrawn negotiators from Pakistan after talks failed to produce an agreement on reopening vital NATO supply routes into Afghanistan, the Pentagon said Monday.

"The decision was reached to bring the team home for a short period of time," Pentagon spokesman George Little told reporters.

The team of negotiators had been in Pakistan for about six weeks, he said, as US officials had believed they were close to a deal with Islamabad to lift the blockade on NATO convoys.

But no breakthrough was imminent and there was no scheduled date for a resumption of the negotiations, Little said.

The United States, however, would continue to maintain a "dialogue" with Pakistan and the departure of the expert negotiating team did not mean Washington had given up discussions with Islamabad, he said.

"That's not to be taken as a sign of our unwillingess to continue the dialogue with Pakistanis on this issue," he said, adding that the negotiators are "prepared to return at any moment."

Pakistan shut its border to NATO supply convoys in November after a botched US air strike killed 24 Pakistani soldiers.

Members of the negotiating team started to leave over the weekend and the remainder of the negotiators would soon return to the United States, Little said.

The comments came after Pakistan's army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani, refused last week to meet US assistant defense secretary Peter Lavoy, who traveled to Pakistan to try to resolve the dispute, officials said.

Lavoy "was hoping to meet with General Kayani to work through this issue," Little said.

The roads through Pakistan are a crucial logistical link for NATO as it plans a large-scale withdrawal of combat troops and equipment by the end of 2014.

But US officials have so far rejected Pakistani proposals to charge steep fees of several thousand dollars for each alliance truck crossing the border.

Washington has also refused to issue an explicit apology for the lethal air raid.

With the Pakistani roads shut, the US-led NATO force has relied on cargo flights and northern supply routes -- negotiated with Russia and a network of governments in Central Asia and the Caucasus.

But the northern routes are much longer and more expensive than the Pakistan roads.

"The more options you have available to you when you're mounting a major logistics effort, like supplying the war effort in Afghanistan, the better," Little said.

"As a technical matter, we could in theory do our work without the ground supply routes. It would certainly be better to have them open and less costly."

The stalled negotiations also coincide with remarks last Thursday by US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, in which he accused Islamabad of failing to crack down on Haqqani insurgents operating inside Pakistan and attacking US-led troops in neighboring Afghanistan.

 

[Jihad]

Ofcourse, Gen. Kayani is the face of our armed forces.
After the Salala attacks, where our dear soldiers were brutally murdered, there is absolutely NO way Gen. Kayani should give in to American demands.

How dare those son of a b**** kill our jawans and then threaten us with severe consequenses if we do not give in to their demands?

If Gen. Kayani is a self respecting general and he values the life of his soldiers, then surely he ought to show the Americans the backdoor and tell them to get their act together.

It is beyond my comprehension that the Americans/Panetta have the guts to humiliate and insult us, even Panetta while being in India adding more fuel to the fire.

I think the yanks have gone too far this time. How dare they call themselves our ally? Brutally murdering our armed forces while they were asleep. And now they're trying to make us look like a black sheep?

F-- them, seriously, excuse me for my language, but f--- them.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

so, they pulled out their negotiatiors....but kept a few in Islamabad as "back up"

the art of negotiations.....knowing (and waiting!) to see who will reach their resistance point first.

it really is an art


with regards to COAS, his decision to snub the Vice Def. Sec. was appropriate, given


--Panetta's OUTRAGEOUS remarks in delhi
--their snub when they refused to meet with Pakistani leadership last week


my very simple take on an otherwise complex issue

 

[FaujHistorian]

VC -Last week it was reported that the USA had negotiated "alternative routes" suggesting no more requirement of opening the routes via Pakistan. Now today we hear rumours of an official apology etc and now they withdraw their negotiators? Do me a favour and understand this BS and changing of "goalposts" will not be tolerated anymore. Forget what Pakistan is doing and what colour its painting itself - can you not for one minute see the games they are playing are pathetic. Can you not see for the betterment and long term future of our nation we need to wash them out of our system and crack on without their "aid" and constant harassment of our nation?

NATO land routes is one of the important aspects, but they are also begging for our help in controlling the primitive tribals and their Arab Biddu masters in FATA. Why it is so hard for you all to understand?


Paksitan's longer term betterment is not to "wash" anyone out.

We just need to be working hard like Chinese, South Koreans, and Japanese to earn money from exports to America and EU.

Instead of begging for aid, we need to supply contractors to the West just like Chinese or Japanese or South Koreans do.


But you my friend are not thinking about improving Pakistan's economy, you want us all to be beggars likes North Koreans, and Iranians.

That's all,

peace.

But Obama is in charge. He can dress an apology up and sell it to his people. After all Pakistan has suffered more from terrorism and even American's in the past have recognised Pakistan's contribution. Obama even admitted that some sort off lead came from Pakistani ISI that lead to Osama's demise

Will this apology my dear Sir, will stop Pakistanis from sheltering Tribal barbarians and Arab Biddu masters in FATA?

If you are not supporting a change in Pakistani behavior towards Tribals, then such demands for apology are just balloons filled with hot smelly air.


peace.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Ofcourse, Gen. Kayani is the face of our armed forces.
After the Salala attacks, where our dear soldiers were brutally murdered, there is absolutely NO way Gen. Kayani should give in to American demands.

How dare those son of a b**** kill our jawans and then threaten us with severe consequenses if we do not give in to their demands?

If Gen. Kayani is a self respecting general and he values the life of his soldiers, then surely he ought to show the Americans the backdoor and tell them to get their act together.

It is beyond my comprehension that the Americans/Panetta have the guts to humiliate and insult us, even Panetta while being in India adding more fuel to the fire.

I think the yanks have gone too far this time. How dare they call themselves our ally? Brutally murdering our armed forces while they were asleep. And now they're trying to make us look like a black sheep?

F-- them, seriously, excuse me for my language, but f--- them.

No, Kayani is not a self respecting general. He is full of bull***t and he is only good at posturing and blowing smoke to the ignorent Pakistani public. A eunuch has more gonad's than Kayani. I am sorry but this is the truth.

So you think he is self respecting and values the lives of his soldiers? Really? Last year the American's came during the night and masticated OBL in Abottabad. The only thing General Kayani scored that night was his wife.

Then the American's wasted some Pakistani soldiers. What has Kayani done? Blow smoke? If he was true to his actions he would have done something else than posturing and pontificating. How about friggin attacking the American's? Of course he dare not do that because the only thing he can do is scare Zardari or Gilani.

Turn the tables around. If Pakistan army attacked a town near West Point, New York State, USA and then killed entire US Marine squad you think the American Chief of Staff would just sit there and pontificate? America would flatten the whole of Pakistan. PDF would have nothing to talk about because there would be no Pak Air Force left or Pak Navy. The Pak Army would have nothing left other than their rifles. No bridge would be standing in Pakistan.

That is real power. Of course I am not suggesting we attack USA. The US is a superpower. We are starved, primitive and ignorent wimps in comparison. Since 1947 Pakistan Army has managed to lose Bangladesh and in 6o years has not managed to gain 1 inch of ground from the LOC in Kashmir. This against another starved swamp called India.

And you expect Pakistan to face USA? Get a grip on reality. Do the weak and poor in Pakistan even dare challange the rich and powerful? No. They know if they do they are going to be the losers. This is not about right or wrong. This is not about morals. This is about raw power.

Those weak and poor in Pakistan know that even if you don't. You think if a Wadera pushes them out of the way they reply back "excuse me can you say sorry" and if they did say that what do you think the Wadera is going reply back? " Oh sorry do excuse me sir, I apologise"? I doubt that very much, instead the Wadera will give the poor guy such 'dhanda' he will never forget' wrong or right is not going to come into it.

Well the same the exact same applies here. USA is the Wadera, Pakistan is the poor tenant farmer that should accept this ugly reality and got busy making itself better. I only wish our leadership had the balls to tell the ignorents of Pakistan the truth. That we are poor, weak third world country so we have to tread carefully.

I felt so strongly about this issue that I broke my self imposed 'exile' by contributing to this thread. I will of course now go back to my 'deactivated status'.

Adios.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Ofcourse, Gen. Kayani is the face of our armed forces.
.....

For Jihadis, any General in Pakistani army who behaves like Saddam or Gaddafi is "face of our armed forces".

Just remember that Saddam Mardood and Gaddafi-Patakhi both got their armed forces utterly destroyed.

FYI. Good generals do not pick fights with 100 times bigger army. Only bar-fight hoodlums do.


peace.

 

[Vassnti]

Time simply to cut the cord. Pakistan has made a life style of US bashing, it makes a nice distraction while your politicians steal you blind gun down people in political fued, praise terrorist, loot the treasury, decimate your health and education. Time to accept the relationship is broken beyond repair.

Pull not just the negotiators out but everyone, embasy, trainers, relief staff, cut off funding, military suplies etc and wait.
In the mean time spend the money some where it gets results or simply not run up the US debt by a few billion.

When Pakistan wants to have a relationship start again but untill Pakistan choses to see the US as a potential ally any negotiations are as worth while a getting into a spitting competition with a camel.

 

[Oldman1]

No, Kayani is not a self respecting general. He is full of bull***t and he is only good at posturing and blowing smoke to the ignorent Pakistani public. A eunuch has more gonad's than Kayani. I am sorry but this is the truth.

So you think he is self respecting and values the lives of his soldiers? Really? Last year the American's came during the night and masticated OBL in Abottabad. The only thing General Kayani scored that night was his wife.

Then the American's wasted some Pakistani soldiers. What has Kayani done? Blow smoke? If he was true to his actions he would have done something else than posturing and pontificating. How about friggin attacking the American's? Of course he dare not do that because the only thing he can do is scare Zardari or Gilani.

Turn the tables around. If Pakistan army attacked a town near West Point, New York State, USA and then killed entire US Marine squad you think the American Chief of Staff would just sit there and pontificate? America would flatten the whole of Pakistan. PDF would have nothing to talk about because there would be no Pak Air Force left or Pak Navy. The Pak Army would have nothing left other than their rifles. No bridge would be standing in Pakistan.

That is real power. Of course I am not suggesting we attack USA. The US is a superpower. We are starved, primitive and ignorent wimps in comparison. Since 1947 Pakistan Army has managed to lose Bangladesh and in 6o years has not managed to gain 1 inch of ground from the LOC in Kashmir. This against another starved swamp called India.

And you expect Pakistan to face USA? Get a grip on reality. Do the weak and poor in Pakistan even dare challange the rich and powerful? No. They know if they do they are going to be the losers. This is not about right or wrong. This is not about morals. This is about raw power.

Those weak and poor in Pakistan know that even if you don't. You think if a Wadera pushes them out of the way they reply back "excuse me can you say sorry" and if they did say that what do you think the Wadera is going reply back? " Oh sorry do excuse me sir, I apologise"? I doubt that very much, instead the Wadera will give the poor guy such 'dhanda' he will never forget' wrong or right is not going to come into it.

Well the same the exact same applies here. USA is the Wadera, Pakistan is the poor tenant farmer that should accept this ugly reality and got busy making itself better. I only wish our leadership had the balls to tell the ignorents of Pakistan the truth. That we are poor, weak third world country so we have to tread carefully.

I felt so strongly about this issue that I broke my self imposed 'exile' by contributing to this thread. I will of course now go back to my 'deactivated status'.

Adios.

The Pakistani military don't have reason to attack the U.S. because we can handle the terrorists our own. But Pakistan can't so the U.S. military is involved in attacking with Pakistani approval. It was a mistake to kill the Pakistani troops not intentional after all we make mistakes killing American or British troops in Iraq or Afghanistan right?

 

[Hulk]

I am surprised that US does not have levers that it can pull to get the job done.

 

[Oldman1]

I am surprised that US does not have levers that it can pull to get the job done.

We have the levers just can't pull them. Just now the U.S. military are not allowed to bomb in towns and villages so the Taliban can easily hide in there and wait. This is not total war back in the days of WW2 or previously. Since the introduction of tv it can have an impact on how war is being implemented.