US plays 'genocide' card to pressure Turkey on NATO missile system

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Urdu itself is a Turkish word Abu Zolfiqar

absolutely correct brother

''Ordu'' means ''Armed Force'' in Turkish

As for the issue of script change... It is important because Turkish history and legacy as recorded by the Ottomans became inaccessible to the younger generation of the Turks...

not necessarily; i'm sure much of it was translated. And with internet, a lot is available online for research. I don't think the script thing is such a big issue; that was their own decision to do.

The children of Osman Ghazi and Fatih Sultan Mehmet may Allah be pleased with the Ottomans are reawakening again God willing...

many others as well; the Ottomans were a formidable force, economically, politically and militarily.

All Muslims should be aware and be taught the history and lessons of the Ottoman Empire

 

[The Clarifier]

Well see i understand why you wouldn't like this. Not many here would. To understand what he is saying here you must alter you thinking. Ataturk doesn't view what is quoted in religious text as the absolute authority because he knows it has been altered through the ages. Both the Quran and Bible have been altered repeatedly. Perfect example is the new and old Testimate which in some areas drastic changes occurred. He is saying here that the Idea of Mohammedanism was something implemented to conform with Arab nationalist ideals.

I do believe that the Qur'an has never been changed and you need to analyze the Qur'an to see why. The reason why changing it is not possible is an entirely different debate. All I can mention now is that I saw some thousand year old Qur'ans and they were the same as what we have now. The Old Testament and the New Testament are not the Qur'an and Turkey wasn't a Christian country so I don't see how that was relevant to Turkey.

I don't want to derail the topic, but please tell me why Islam was based on arab nationalistic ideas... also, Mohammedanism is not a correct term as we do not pray to Prophet Muhammad, we pray to God.

Saying that Turkey is better without religion being mixed with state is incorrect because the Ottoman Empire was evidence to disprove this claim. Perhaps ataturk had furthered Turkey and brought it where it is now (hence I respect him for that) but religion is the life and identity for many Muslims... suddenly banning Hijabs for university students is like denying the right for conservatives to become educated. Thankfully this law was removed some time ago

 

[Hasbara Buster]

Arab script was our history? That and Arab culture ? Don't think so.

Latin script was our history? That and western culture? Don't think so

We don't have to adopt other people's culture anyway, be it western or Arab. Islam and culture are totally separate issues.

 

[damm1t]

People have to respect what MKemal Ataturk did for this counry. He didn't want caliphate or sultan's regime because he had respect people's choices. Another point is, as whole muslims we could have loyalty to the caliph, but the problem is could the caliph be reliable ? I speak for the conditions of our century. There is always possible risk to make this holy position dirty for politics.
But you all should know that we still have ottoman blood in our veins.

 

[Hasbara Buster]

Both the Quran and Bible have been altered repeatedly. Perfect example is the new and old Testimate which in some areas drastic changes occurred. He is saying here that the Idea of Mohammedanism was something implemented to conform with Arab nationalist ideals.



This would give you a better understanding of what he meant. Of course most here will completely reject this.

The Qu'ran was never altered, believing this will make someone a disbeliever (everybody of course is free to believe what they want). Perhaps you meant Ahadith instead of Qur'an.

 

[Hasbara Buster]

Instead we are the strongest economic Muslim majority nation in the world.

No, that's Indonesia. They have the 15th largest economy in the world, Turkey is 16th. Like Turkey, Indonesian economy is growing very fast.

 

[Jigs]

No, that's Indonesia. They have the 15th largest economy in the world, Turkey is 16th. Like Turkey, Indonesian economy is growing very fast.

I am going by world bank stats we are ahead for 2010 GDP PPP

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

People have to respect what MKemal Ataturk did for this counry. He didn't want caliphate or sultan's regime because he had respect people's choices. Another point is, as whole muslims we could have loyalty to the caliph, but the problem is could the caliph be reliable ? I speak for the conditions of our century. There is always possible risk to make this holy position dirty for politics.
But you all should know that we still have ottoman blood in our veins.

Good point... The only way to ensure the Caliph stays on the right path is to understand Islam properly... So when Caliph starts doing something wrong he can be corrected... Unfortunately Muslims in the past have a poor performance in this regard... even at the time when knowledge of Islam was available... One of the shining example to the contrary however is that of Imam Hussain who rejected Yazid's nomination as Caliph and the forceful pledge that Ameer Mawviyah took for his son... Imam Hussain RA got martyred by Yazid's dacoits...

The Madhalim court has to be very strong as an institution and any citizen of the state should be allowed to file a case against the rulers in that court... This court is to have the power to even remove the ruler if he is proven guilty...

However most important thing is for people to understand Islamic politics... Once they understand this, the Caliph cannot take them for a ride... like our current rulers are doing to us... many even in the name of Islam...

As for Ottoman blood... My dislike for Kamal would be because he did not prove loyal to the house of Ottomanis... The Ottomans have given great sacrifices for the Muslims... They were some of the best leaders that God blessed us with... I can fully understand why the Turks should hate the Arabs for their treason... The forefathers of the Saudis were the worst traitors of our nation... but just the fact that someone is behaving against Islam does not mean that we should also behave against Islam's teachings... Then to ban the Adhan in Arabic and so many other actions that Kamal did... whereas the fact is that the Ottoman's legacy is going to remain till the judgement day... One cannot walk for five minutes in Istanbul Sultan Ahmet District without coming across a Turba of our true leaders...

Also think about the whole of Muslim world ever since the Caliphate got destroyed... Look at the kind of leaders that we got in the Arab world (and in Pakistan too)... The most evil and monstrous Saddam Hussains, Qadhafis, Mubarak and Hafiz Assads... Traitors like King Hussain and the Saudis... The Ummah of Muhammad saw needs better people than all of these... Since the Ottomans have gone, we have suffered calamity after calamity as the collective Islamic nation...

But there are good times coming... In Istanbul I made an interesting discovery... a gem that not many people know about... In the area called Topkapi (not the palace) there now stands Panorama 1453 honoring Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror... it is a beautiful work of art... With places like the Panorama 1453, it is hoped that the Turks will remember their lost glory and come back to play an important role of leadership for all Muslims...

Readers can take a virtual 3D tour below...

Panorama 1453 - 3D Virtual Tour

and yes... the Turks should all listen to what Sheikh Nazim said many years ago...

On Topic... Turkey should start distancing itself from both America and Europe and forget about the missile shield... start influencing the Muslim world with ultimate unity of our lands as a mighty state... and I do not approve of any Turkish Islamic Union at all... we need real unity not union...

 

[Kambojaric]

Good point... The only way to ensure the Caliph stays on the right path is to understand Islam properly... So when Caliph starts doing something wrong he can be corrected... Unfortunately Muslims in the past have a poor performance in this regard... even at the time when knowledge of Islam was available... One of the shining example to the contrary however is that of Imam Hussain who rejected Yazid's nomination as Caliph and the forceful pledge that Ameer Mawviyah took for his son... Imam Hussain RA got martyred by Yazid's dacoits...

The Madhalim court has to be very strong as an institution and any citizen of the state should be allowed to file a case against the rulers in that court... This court is to have the power to even remove the ruler if he is proven guilty...

However most important thing is for people to understand Islamic politics... Once they understand this, the Caliph cannot take them for a ride... like our current rulers are doing to us... many even in the name of Islam...

As for Ottoman blood... My dislike for Kamal would be because he did not prove loyal to the house of Ottomanis... The Ottomans have given great sacrifices for the Muslims... They were some of the best leaders that God blessed us with... I can fully understand why the Turks should hate the Arabs for their treason... The forefathers of the Saudis were the worst traitors of our nation... but just the fact that someone is behaving against Islam does not mean that we should also behave against Islam's teachings... Then to ban the Adhan in Arabic and so many other actions that Kamal did... whereas the fact is that the Ottoman's legacy is going to remain till the judgement day... One cannot walk for five minutes in Istanbul Sultan Ahmet District without coming across a Turba of our true leaders...

Also think about the whole of Muslim world ever since the Caliphate got destroyed... Look at the kind of leaders that we got in the Arab world (and in Pakistan too)... The most evil and monstrous Saddam Hussains, Qadhafis, Mubarak and Hafiz Assads... Traitors like King Hussain and the Saudis... The Ummah of Muhammad saw needs better people than all of these... Since the Ottomans have gone, we have suffered calamity after calamity as the collective Islamic nation...

But there are good times coming... In Istanbul I made an interesting discovery... a gem that not many people know about... In the area called Topkapi (not the palace) there now stands Panorama 1453 honoring Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror... it is a beautiful work of art... With places like the Panorama 1453, it is hoped that the Turks will remember their lost glory and come back to play an important role of leadership for all Muslims...

Readers can take a virtual 3D tour below...

Panorama 1453 - 3D Virtual Tour

and yes... the Turks should all listen to what Sheikh Nazim said many years ago...

On Topic... Turkey should start distancing itself from both America and Europe and forget about the missile shield... start influencing the Muslim world with ultimate unity of our lands as a mighty state... and I do not approve of any Turkish Islamic Union at all... we need real unity not union...

Yaar, Ataturk had no real choice when it came to choosing sides because as im sure you know the allies had captured Istanbul and the Sultan was in their hands i.e he had become a puppet. Despite all the nostalgia of the Ottomans it is far better to have a strong, free Turkey then a much reduced weak Ottoman "Empire". Jigs just showed you the map of how the allies intended to divide Anatolia and East Thrace amongst themselves. At the end of the day even though i agree with many of the points you made regarding Ataturks policies it cant be denied that he quite honestly saved the Turkish nation and the Turkey that you see today would not have been possible without Ataturk. Instead it would be a client state of Greece, Armenia and the other allies, in the form of the "Ottoman Empire". That would be something beyond embaresment and humiliation to see the fate of the Ottomans fall so low.

 

[The Clarifier]

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim, I haven't been here for very long but I like your posts

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Yaar, Ataturk had no real choice when it came to choosing sides because as im sure you know the allies had captured Istanbul and the Sultan was in their hands i.e he had become a puppet. Despite all the nostalgia of the Ottomans it is far better to have a strong, free Turkey then a much reduced weak Ottoman "Empire". Jigs just showed you the map of how the allies intended to divide Anatolia and East Thrace amongst themselves. At the end of the day even though i agree with many of the points you made regarding Ataturks policies it cant be denied that he quite honestly saved the Turkish nation and the Turkey that you see today would not have been possible without Ataturk. Instead it would be a client state of Greece, Armenia and the other allies, in the form of the "Ottoman Empire". That would be something beyond embaresment and humiliation to see the fate of the Ottomans fall so low.

I would have accepted all you say here... My only problem is that Kamal did nt just do these actions in the end when Turkey had suffered defeat... Ever since he became popular after achieving the victory of Gallipoli, his whole narration has been one of Turkish Nationalism and we need to get rid of Arabs and all Arab influence... He never spoke out against the Caliph till the end however... all of this was way before Turkey suffered the defeat...

Even his abolishment of the Caliphate was not sudden... He initially abolished the Sultanate in 1922 and he left the Caliph as a symbolic figure like the Pope... It was after the British started seeing the heat of the Khilafat Movement in India that they made him finally make the last of the Caliphs leave Istanbul and finished even the symbolic status of Ottomans... This was in 1924... If Kamal had wanted to do his reforms he could have still done that because after finishing the Sultanate in 1922, he had everything to himself... He did not even leave us with the symbol of Muslim Unity... At least the Catholics have their Pope!!!

Moreover... If Arabs had proven to be traitors to the Caliphate... The Turks seem to overlook the fact that its was the western powers that were behind the Arabs... How can you justify adopting the culture of western secularism and giving the reasoning that the Arabs betrayed you where the west has always (and continues to) hate Turkey...

God willing, may Allah spares all of our lives... By next year I shall be releasing an interesting documentary on this subject...

Anyway... Whats done is done... we should focus on the future... There are interesting times coming soon for the good of the whole world... Turkey and Turks have to take this responsibility... They have to come back as one of the dominant powers in the world... Its in the Turkish nature to do good for the world... They are already working to sort out the Kurdish grievances and improving relations with neighbors... but despite having a superficial Islamic color, even the current government is working for American objectives and goals... As long as they keep doing this... they will not truly progress...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim, I haven't been here for very long but I like your posts

Make Dua for me then

 

[500]

No, that's Indonesia. They have the 15th largest economy in the world, Turkey is 16th. Like Turkey, Indonesian economy is growing very fast.

Indonesia has 3 times more population than Turkey and it has zero scientific output. It just provides cheap labor to Western companies.

 

[Kambojaric]

I would have accepted all you say here... My only problem is that Kamal did nt just do these actions in the end when Turkey had suffered defeat... Ever since he became popular after achieving the victory of Gallipoli, his whole narration has been one of Turkish Nationalism and we need to get rid of Arabs and all Arab influence... He never spoke out against the Caliph till the end however... all of this was way before Turkey suffered the defeat...

Even his abolishment of the Caliphate was not sudden... He initially abolished the Sultanate in 1922 and he left the Caliph as a symbolic figure like the Pope... It was after the British started seeing the heat of the Khilafat Movement in India that they made him finally make the last of the Caliphs leave Istanbul and finished even the symbolic status of Ottomans... This was in 1924... If Kamal had wanted to do his reforms he could have still done that because after finishing the Sultanate in 1922, he had everything to himself... He did not even leave us with the symbol of Muslim Unity... At least the Catholics have their Pope!!!

Moreover... If Arabs had proven to be traitors to the Caliphate... The Turks seem to overlook the fact that its was the western powers that were behind the Arabs... How can you justify adopting the culture of western secularism and giving the reasoning that the Arabs betrayed you where the west has always (and continues to) hate Turkey...

God willing, may Allah spares all of our lives... By next year I shall be releasing an interesting documentary on this subject...

Anyway... Whats done is done... we should focus on the future... There are interesting times coming soon for the good of the whole world... Turkey and Turks have to take this responsibility... They have to come back as one of the dominant powers in the world... Its in the Turkish nature to do good for the world... They are already working to sort out the Kurdish grievances and improving relations with neighbors... but despite having a superficial Islamic color, even the current government is working for American objectives and goals... As long as they keep doing this... they will not truly progress...

Sorry for replying so late bro, in my opinion Ataturk was a visionary, he saw what was coming. If you study the recent Ottoman history prior to 1914 you will notice how one by one more and more provinces were breaking away due to nationalism, this includes Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria and most importantly muslim Albania and Bosnia (Note this was before the communist era and muslims of these countries were still largely practising). Now you are probably thinking well this nationalist ideology would only be accepted by European countries but soon after it spread to the other side of the Bosphurus as well namely the Kurds who attempted to create their own state several times in the 1800s. So then one thinks what is there to stop the Arabs from also falling into the trap of nationalism? Ataturk saw this coming, he saw that it was only a matter of time before the Arabs betrayed as well, so he needed to strengthen what was left of the Ottoman Empire in anyway possible hence the reaction which was Turkish Nationalism.

 

[cabatli_53]

The mighty ottoman empire plz. You forget WW1 ? You forget what the Sultan agreed to ? Let me refresh your memory.

So your actually complete wrong. This was the third rate country that awaited us if we went with the Sultan and Ottoman empire. Most of the Turks would not even be born in Turkey but in foreign occupied territories. I am sure that would have been a fun life.

Instead we are the strongest economic Muslim majority nation in the world. This was due to Ataturks reforms. Why not take a look at the Arab states ? If it was not for their oil they would go back to killing each other till nations jumped in for crowd control.

There was not any "Empire" remained after WW1. As you see with above map that After Treaty of Sevres, Ottoman sultans signed, Anatolia had already been breaked into many pieces and Those Sultans had accepted it and defended How they resqued Anatolian lands with this signiture, What a proud agreement they signed without shame themselves. Different than geoghraphical seperation, There are lots of critical shocking articles giving the independace of Turkish Nation/Borders to foreign forces signed with threaty of Serves (I advise all of you to take a look of all articles of Treaty of Sevres to realise What We are talking about). They were M. Kemal Ataturk and his friends who rejected this shame situation and defended the independance of Turk nation against Imperials/Ottomans.


The Treaty of Sevres signatories of the Ottoman Empire. Left to right: Rıza Tevfik; Grand vizier Damat Ferid Pasha; ambassador Hadi Pasha; and the Ottoman Minister of Education Reşid Halis.

They were same Ottoman/British collaboration that called this independance movement like "Traitorism" and used "Khilafat" to convince the nation in accordance with benefits of Britain with holy Islam. Even Britain planes had dropped brochures telling (orders of "Khilafet") How Turkish nation has to act against Ataturk. Thanks Allah that Most of Turkish nation were not convinced and Independance movement became sucessfull. With this way, We can talk about Turkish achievements thanks to Ataturk now a days.