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US plays 'genocide' card to pressure Turkey on NATO missile system

Turkey is the only nation on Earth during a world war to have turned a military defeat into a victory. :yahoo:

In the Turkish war of independence the British and their allies felt the resolve and defiance of the Turkish people once again which was captured by an Indian newspaper at the time stating that "the Turks instead buried the British in the coffin that was meant for them".

We must also not forget that by changing the written script from one that is based on Arabic to a Latin based script literacy skyrocketed in a few years from less then 10 percent to over 90 percent.

When regarding what Ataturk did for Turkey we must not forget these things.

Of course the Turkish people would have loved to have their empire exist as a political reality but the situation in the last 30 years of the Ottoman empire was one of complete utter hopelessness and despair, desertions were common and it was not unheard of to hear families having lost the entirety of their male members to war; the Ottoman empire had come to the end of it's time and did not have the willpower to defend it's borders let alone try and expand and retake it's former holdings. Ataturk changed all this and established the modern republic of Turkey based on democratic ideals.

Among other achievements Ataturk destroyed the 300 year old British myth of invincibility, caused the British government of George Lloyd to collapse without ever having spoken to the British, destroyed the Greek Megali idea, created the first example of Blitzkrieg by driving the Greek invasion force from Ankara all the way to the Aegean within 3 weeks, gave equal rights to women as well as giving women the right to vote, Ataturk's daughter became the first female combat pilot in the world and Ataturk managed to turn one by one the Russians, French and Italians against the British and Greeks thus eliminating any hope of the Greeks to gain reinforcements against the Turkish great counter offensive in 1922.

From Ataturk's creation of the modern republic of Turkey to the current status it can be honestly seen as the recovery era of Turkey because only until recently Turkey had not yet truly recovered from world war 1 to it's former strength. For example the Milgem warship is the first major warship construction project since Ottoman times and Turkish diplomats have never been so active outside of their home nation while the economic might of Turkey has increased dramatically with Turkish goods and services not just flooding Europe but flowing into Arabia, Africa and Asia as well.

The Turkish people are waking up and the nation of Turkey is once again powerful, wealthy and willing to flex it muscle. However the time of colonial conquest is over and the future will honestly not be a British style empire (of colonies and conquests) for the Turkish people (more a American empire of influence) but instead be a blending of Ataturk's neutrality mindset and the desire and requirement for Turkey to take an active role in many areas of modern issues. Turkey will most likely have a region of influence that includes the Arabic speaking nations as well as parts of north Africa and the Balkans, this influence will be a combination of military alliances, joint technological and economic adventures and establishment of goodwill (such as the recent building of higher education institutions in Bosnia).

Areas of influence will also include traditionally hostile nations such as Greece. Having no choice but to accept Turkish influence (Greece will see a further reduction of economic and industrial capacity as it's pop shrinks to 9 mil by 2050) as well as the fact that Greece will find that the economic crisis of 2009-2011 will be the first of a series of readjustments.

So what can be analysed if one studies Turkey seriously is that:

1. The Ottoman and previous empires of the Turkish people were the imperial era.

2. The republic of Turkey until very recently (say the inauguration of the AKP government into office) was recovery and neutral internal mindset (sort of like Japan's splendid isolation but with greater interaction to total isolation in Turkey's case) period with the only major intervention by Turkey during this period being the forced intervention in Cyprus.

3. AKP and post AKP is a period of the expansion of Turkish influence in the region and Turkey is increasingly willing to take a more active role on global matters. The vast number of military projects I believe point to this (like the British and the U.S but a Muslim majority nation doing major global intervention and peace keeping roles).

The Armenian genocide, Greek genocide and the recently invented phrase Kurdish genocide are all tools to prevent a strong Turkey and a Muslim majority nation from once again becoming a powerful global player.

While it can be readily seen that these supposed genocides have dubious and downright false claims (such as both the Armenians and Greeks claiming that their section of Izmir burned down (when only 1 section burned down) which is not only contradictory it also clearly points out that 1 or both are lying about this event nevermind the fact that the Greeks in their retreat were openly practicing a scorched Earth policy and the Turkish army would have very little reason to burn their own reconquered city.).

To commit genocide a political entity would require first of all the manpower to commit such a crime against humanity and the Turkey of 1850 (from the time of the great naval disaster of Russia having ambushed and destroyed the Ottoman black sea fleet) to the 1922 period certainly did not have the required manpower as it was constantly involved in wars with the result often being defeat for the Ottomans due to lack of materials and manpower. By the time of the Turkish war of independence women were almost exclusively manning the factories and what little logistics support network that were hastily established. All available able bodied men at the time were required on the front lines, in many places children also took up the fight against enemy troops.

Compare Turkey's situation of the increasing lack of manpower and decades without peace to that of NAZI Germany and it becomes obvious that not only did NAZI Germany have the willingness and infrastructure to commit such a crime but also the manpower as the mass executions did not stop until Soviet troops overran the concentration camps in which an estimated 3 million innocent people were killed.

It is also not difficult to see why such underhanded tactics are used as people in the Balkans and Europe still have bad memories of the Ottomans and in a Europe that is once again heading down the path of intolerance the obvious target in the post 9/11 world are people who practice the Islamic faith. After all Europeans have been fighting for centuries amongst themselves and the only common thing the vast majority have are their religion so what better way to unite the masses of Europe through religious lines (ironically the EU was setup to be free of religious influence on it's political processes) and this is sadly what it means to be European. Today their is no doubt the only reason a cash strapped EU does not accept an economically strong Turkey is due to Turkey being a majority Muslim country.

With underhanded tactics failing them nations and people have instead opted to directly sponsor opposition groups to the Turkish nation such as the PKK.

It should come as no surprise that Europe hosts the propaganda channel of the PKK despite the PKK being listed throughout the world as a terror organization. I would also like to point out that while the sale of it being illegal Belgium remains the world's number one seller of land mines, many Turkish troops have lost their lives to land mines.

Furthermore when the Soviet Union was a strong and credible threat to NATO, Turkey was supported by all NATO nations eagerly with vast amounts of military equipment often being sold cheaply to an understandable nervous Turkey who had to face 22 Soviet tank divisions with her own (and costly to upkeep) 17 divisions on the border.

Turkey suddenly had to face the internal threat of the PKK coincidentally when it started becoming obvious in the 80's the U.S was much more powerful then the USSR, with this realization and the PKK having emerged in the 80's, military equipment was often sold to Turkey with conditions attached such as the forbidding of advanced weapons being used on PKK terrorists.

While technically allies Europe is definitely not a friend of Turkey neither do they see the benefits of a strong Turkey nor do they want it, being nervous that the "dark days" of the Ottomans may just come back. For reference understand that the Maltese continue to tell their children to goto bed early or else the Ottomans may take them away from their homes.

Unlike many of our "allies" many Turks throughout the world continue to maintain their allegiance to the nation of Turkey ironically this allegiance is also reinforced due to the discrimination that they experience simply for being Turkish and increasingly for being both Muslim and Turkish. With Turkish families outside of Turkey being much larger and often having 3 or 4 offspring the population of Turks outside of Turkey continues to grow and it can be envisioned that the "diaspora" of Turks will one day be just as large or larger then other famous diaspora's.

It is not difficult to see when this external Turkish population growth is achieved that some of the negative decisions other nations have taken in regards to Turkey will be reversed, this of course will play directly into a strengthening Turkey as it's overseas population will realign nations of their residence to accept policies that favor Turkey.

Of course nothing is certain and the population growth may be stopped if intolerant nations decide to evict their foreign ethnic populations but given the consequences of such actions and the resulting economic and industrial impacts such decisions will have, it is highly unlikely.

One thing for certain is that Turkey is coming out of it's neutral, internal looking mindset and once again wants to take center stage also what is certain is that nations that are traditionally hostile to Turkey will try to prevent this by continuing their underhanded tactics in an attempt to weaken Turkey and the Turkish people, what they simply fail to understand is that for the Turkish people anything less then a powerful independent Turkey is not acceptable and it is respect to Ataturk's vision and the continued remembrance of the dark days of the closing years of the Ottoman empire that kept the Turks quite for so many years.
 
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I am only responding to the thread title.

Why do you care what america does?

The other participants to the contest are equally or more capable systems, who cares about the patriot ?
 
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Areas of influence will also include traditionally hostile nations such as Greece. Having no choice but to accept Turkish influence (Greece will see a further reduction of economic and industrial capacity as it's pop shrinks to 9 mil by 2050) as well as the fact that Greece will find that the economic crisis of 2009-2011 will be the first of a series of readjustments

You are only presenting one side of the facts there and a bit overstretched.

Greece is (and was) a small country next to a big country (turkey)
This is always affecting the smaller country in terms of economy.

However, Greece (despite its financial crisis) is an EU member.

What you describe above has only some merit if the EU dissolves or Greece exits the EU. -right now are both unlikely.
Similar for bulgaria, romania, cyprus, etc..

So .. it is always good to present both sides of a case.
 
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Amalakas it has already been pointed out because of the position Turkey geographically is in, expected surge in population as well as the fact it is a major world economy that is has the capacity to achieve this dream even with the EU bordering it. Remember the time of colonial conquests is over and the EU would not dare invade the land from which it's principal oil pipelines run through nevermind the fact that such a decision would generate a furious world outcry.

As a Muslim majority nation Turkey has the capability to do this even now, for example let assume Greece wanted to create a union of it's own who would other then South Cyprus, Serbia and possibly Bulgaria join in this union? and furthermore why would they join this union rather then the much larger and pre-existing EU? Now look at Turkey and just like the EU member states it shares in common with it's Arab speaking and some Caucasus neighbors not only the same religion but also a shared and intermingled history. Turkey is also eager to join a union for greater market access and growth therefore for Turkey it is not a matter of if they want to join a union but who to join with or who to form a union with.

All this talk and analysis by experts started because Turkey is already going ahead and building it's own union. It is attempting to build a Turkic members union (a new joint investment bank has been launched by the government that is to invest in Turkic countries and foreign ministers of Turkic nations all converge for yearly meetings). It is also attempting in parallel to the Turkic union forge a ME union (Turkey has recently signed a free trade agreement with Suriye, Lebanon, Jordan and UAE.) with Turkey as the central key nation.

Remember a region of influence does not necessarily indicate a military conquest and regarding Greece there are already signs of Turkish influence on Greece. Combine this with the predicted reductions of Greek economic and industrial capacity Greece may in the future have no option, however this may not necessarily be a bad thing as Greece could be the next crossroads country that combines the best of both the EU and ME/Turkic influences as well as the fact that such a situation would end both our countries mutual distrust by engaging with words and ideas rather then with machines of war.

Even if the EU was disbanded and Greece had the nightmare of facing it's increasingly strengthening rival Turkey alone without EU support they still would not be in danger of Turkey forming a colonial style empire at the expense of Greek sovereignty as not only would the outcry for a total invasion be overwhelming but Turkey would find itself isolated and alone with many of her memberships in organizations that give her significant strength and prestige in jeopardy (such as NATO, Council of Europe, OECD, OSCE, G-20, OIC, ECC etc.).

Looking at the region Turkey is in and the fact that it views itself as a leader for Muslims combined with some of it's recent actions it is obvious this is already happening although projections can be wrong and they almost are never 100 percent accurate but the point is it is not wishful thinking but rather it is reality.

The question I would ask you Amalakas is would Europe be better with Turkey under it's EU umbrella (as some experts claim that the EU cannot be a true superpower without the inclusion of Turkey) to face of against the expected Russian re-emergence or would it be better to have 3 global/super powers facing each other and locking the region into a tense but sustained peace?
 
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Amalakas it has already been pointed out because of the position Turkey geographically is in, expected surge in population as well as the fact it is a major world economy that is has the capacity to achieve this dream even with the EU bordering it. Remember the time of colonial conquests is over and the EU would not dare invade the land from which it's principal oil pipelines run through nevermind the fact that such a decision would generate a furious world outcry.

As a Muslim majority nation Turkey has the capability to do this even now, for example let assume Greece wanted to create a union of it's own who would other then South Cyprus, Serbia and possibly Bulgaria join in this union? and furthermore why would they join this union rather then the much larger and pre-existing EU? Now look at Turkey and just like the EU member states it shares in common with it's Arab speaking and some Caucasus neighbors not only the same religion but also a shared and intermingled history. Turkey is also eager to join a union for greater market access and growth therefore for Turkey it is not a matter of if they want to join a union but who to join with or who to form a union with.

All this talk and analysis by experts started because Turkey is already going ahead and building it's own union. It is attempting to build a Turkic members union (a new joint investment bank has been launched by the government that is to invest in Turkic countries and foreign ministers of Turkic nations all converge for yearly meetings). It is also attempting in parallel to the Turkic union forge a ME union (Turkey has recently signed a free trade agreement with Suriye, Lebanon, Jordan and UAE.) with Turkey as the central key nation.

Remember a region of influence does not necessarily indicate a military conquest and regarding Greece there are already signs of Turkish influence on Greece. Combine this with the predicted reductions of Greek economic and industrial capacity Greece may in the future have no option, however this may not necessarily be a bad thing as Greece could be the next crossroads country that combines the best of both the EU and ME/Turkic influences as well as the fact that such a situation would end both our countries mutual distrust by engaging with words and ideas rather then with machines of war.

Even if the EU was disbanded and Greece had the nightmare of facing it's increasingly strengthening rival Turkey alone without EU support they still would not be in danger of Turkey forming a colonial style empire at the expense of Greek sovereignty as not only would the outcry for a total invasion be overwhelming but Turkey would find itself isolated and alone with many of her memberships in organizations that give her significant strength and prestige in jeopardy (such as NATO, Council of Europe, OECD, OSCE, G-20, OIC, ECC etc.).

Looking at the region Turkey is in and the fact that it views itself as a leader for Muslims combined with some of it's recent actions it is obvious this is already happening although projections can be wrong and they almost are never 100 percent accurate but the point is it is not wishful thinking but rather it is reality.

The question I would ask you Amalakas is would Europe be better with Turkey under it's EU umbrella (as some experts claim that the EU cannot be a true superpower without the inclusion of Turkey) to face of against the expected Russian re-emergence or would it be better to have 3 global/super powers facing each other and locking the region into a tense but sustained peace?

I don't see any basis for your assumptions.

Greece has no reasons to have a union with anyone ..period

Turks are so preoccupied with the fear of Greece joining with Cyprus that you missed something so colossal that it defies belief.

Cyprus has made a union, and a far more important than a union with Greece could ever be..
Cyprus has joined the EU .. you were afraid of the fly and you missed the elephant ..

stop being haunted by ghosts of the past that were based only on unrealistic propaganda
 
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Sadly this government in place is disgrace to values of our founder who always had a policy of keeping good relations with western powers.


This government is the best government Turkey ever had since it was founded. Its not in Turkeys interests at all to accept this missile shield and declare Iran enemy just because Israel want that. They want Turkey to be a frontline again just like in the cold war times. And again it will be Turkey who will suffer most. So i believe our government does the right thing.
 
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I don't see any basis for your assumptions.

Greece has no reasons to have a union with anyone ..period

Turks are so preoccupied with the fear of Greece joining with Cyprus that you missed something so colossal that it defies belief.

Cyprus has made a union, and a far more important than a union with Greece could ever be..
Cyprus has joined the EU .. you were afraid of the fly and you missed the elephant ..

stop being haunted by ghosts of the past that were based only on unrealistic propaganda

You completely misunderstood the point that I am making.

My point was the reality is that Greece does not require to create a union of her own or that the need for such a union is very difficult to find the reasons for and create given the pre-existance of the EU.

But the greater point is that Turkey given her position and her shared culture and religion with many of her neighbors has not only the capacity to form a union of her own but the need as well.

I also find the whole Turkey being scared of Greece and Cyprus even with their EU membership laughable :rofl: since given the apparent constant territorial violations our ships and planes find themselves in logic dictates that Turkey is hardly afraid. On the contrary having a read through this article it appears the Greeks continue to practice the deluded "what if X had happened instead of Y" policy of reassuring themselves that they are somehow capable of sustaining a major conflict with Turkey and that past mistakes were nothing but a combination of bad luck and incompetence.
 
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What do you Genocide denyers think about this? man I almost fell out of my chair. Please tell me this is not true or its just a stunt.

In a move aimed at least in part at strengthening its bid to join the European Union, the government of Turkey has announced that it will formally participate in official commemorations of the Armenian genocide, held worldwide on April 24.]

The announcement comes on the heels of Turkey's first official participation in ceremonies observing the Jewish Holocaust. On Holocaust Remembrance Day, Jan. 27, a representative of Turkey's Foreign Ministry visited Istanbul's Jewish community, and Minister for European Union Affairs Egemen Bagis became the first Turkish government official to visit the Holocaust memorial at Auschwitz.

While the Turkish government statement about the Armenian genocide observances does not state what official actions it will take, it did state that Turkey will participate actively in April 24 observances and step up contacts with the Armenian diaspora, in particular the Armenian community in the United States. Turkey said the move is aimed at overcoming the "psychological barrier" between Turkey and Armenia.

It can be inferred from both the timing of the announcement and the government's participation in the Holocaust observance that even if it does not take place this year, a Turkish government minister will attend an official commemoration of the Armenian genocide in the very near future.

The announcement was also presented as a further step along the path Turkey set out on when it signed protocols with the Armenian government outlining a path towards normalization of relations between the two countries. Armenia and Armenians worldwide have criticized Turkey for denying the Ottoman government's role in the deaths of 1.5 million Armenians during a campaign of forced exile and extermination that began in April 1915.

In recent years, Turkish newspapers have published more frequent commentaries calling on the government to formally recognize the genocide. Last year, Turkish authorities allowed a private observance of the genocide anniversary privately organized by Armenians living in Istanbul to take place, also a first. The Turkish government has also quietly dropped its policy of severing relations with countries that officially recognize the genocide; President Abdullah Gul recently welcomed Argentine President Cristina Fernandez to the country, and the Canadian minister of trade will visit Turkey within the next month.

Armenians in America have lobbied Congress to pass a resolution officially acknowledging the Armenian genocide, a step the United States has refused so far to take out of a desire to maintain good relations with Turkey, a strategic military ally in the Mediterranean. A bill officially recognizing the genocide is bottled up in Congress, where passage is uncertain; if it were to pass, it would likely be vetoed by President Obama for the same reason. These recent moves by Turkey may also change the climate surrounding the measure in Washington.

Turkey may send minister to Armenian genocide observance

Turkish:

Yahudi açılımından sonra Ermeni açılımı

07.02.2011

Tarihi olaylarda psikolojik travmanın kolay atlatılamadığını tespit eden Ankara, Musevilerden sonra Ermeni açılımı yapacak. 24 Nisan'da Ermeni faaliyetlerine aktif katılım sağlanacak

Türkiye ile Ermenistan arasında normalleşmenin sağlanması için imzalanan protokollerin askıya alınmasının ardından Ankara, sürecin psikolojik engele takıldığı ama eninde sonunda yaşama geçirileceği görüşünde. Tarihi geçmişi olan olaylarda psikolojik travmaların kolay atlatılamadığı tespitini yapan Ankara, bu travmaları aşmak için atılacak adımları masaya yatırdı. Türkiye, tıpkı Musevilere karşı olduğu gibi Ermenilere karşı da açılımlarına devam edecek. Türkiye, yıllar sonra '27 Ocak Uluslararası Yahudi Soykırımı Kurbanlarını Anma Günü' ne temsilci yollamış, Devlet Bakanı Egemen Bağış da Auswitch kampını ziyaret eden ilk hükümet görevlisi olmuştu. Benzer şekilde Ermenilerin de faaliyetlerine aktif katılım için 24 Nisan yaklaşırken talimat verildi. Bu amaçla diaspora ile temasların sıklaştırılması, özellikle Amerika'daki Ermeni lobisi ile temas kurulması, Ermeni diasporasının verdiği davetlere de katılım sağlanması kararı Aralık ayındaki MGK'da yapılan sunumda kararlaştırıldı.

SOYKIRIM KÜSLÜĞÜ
Ermeni halkına ulaşmak için ilk olarak diaspora ile diyalog geliştirilecek. Normalleşme süreci ise diasporayı da kapsayacak. Tarihin yükünden kurtulmanın zaman alacağı belirtilen bu süreçte Ankara, 'sebat' göstermekte kararlı. Bu amaçla da atılan adımların arkasında durulacak ve Ermenistan ile imzalanan iki protokole sahip çıkılacak. Ancak Kafkaslarda ilerleme olmadığı müddetçe, bu tıkanıklığın aşılması beklenmiyor. Türkiye, geçtiğimiz yıllarda sözde soykırım tasarılarını kabul eden ülkelere uyguladığı siyasi boykot kararını da askıya aldı. Bu çerçevede Cumhurbaşkanı Abdullah Gül geçtiğimiz günlerde Arjantin Cumhurbaşkanı Cristina Fernandez'ı ağırladı. Kanada Ticaret Bakanı'nın da önümüzdeki günlerde Ankara'ya gelmesi beklenirken, ziyaretlerin sözde soykırımı kabul eden diğer ülkelerden de sürmesi bekleniyor. Nisan ayının yaklaşması ile birlikte ABD Kongresi'nde önümüzdeki günlerde yeniden soykırım tasarısının gündeme gelmesi bekleniyor. Ermeni lobisinin Kongre'de harekete geçmesine kesin gözüyle bakılırken, ABD Başkanı Barack Obama'nın sözde soykırım tasarısının yasalaşmasına izin vermeyeceği de belirtildi. Ankara, Obama yönetiminin ilişkileri temelden sarsacak bir adıma izin vermeyeceği, böylesi bir tasarının da yasalaşmayacağı görüşünde.

Yahudi aç

Translation please......
 
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What do you Genocide denyers think about this? man I almost fell out of my chair. Please tell me this is not true or its just a stunt.



Turkish:



Translation please......

it tells about strenghtening relations with armenian diaspora...whats the big deal?are you happy,you feel honored?:)
 
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how about the genocides committed by usa war machinery from vietnam to afghanistan to iraq.who will answer about those millions killed by usa?
 
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it tells about strenghtening relations with armenian diaspora...whats the big deal?are you happy,you feel honored?:)

No, I actually don't care.....eventhough I attend AG demonstrations in front of your Consulate every year, I would like the Armenian Diasporas to drop this resolution from the US congress and not persue it anymore. It is an insult and a waist of our resources. What I wanted to know is what is the Turkish public reaction to this (at least the Turkish members here).
 
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Anyone seen this on yahoo news? Oh dear Armenians... I feel bad for Americans paying more taxes because of you.

Link: Tax News from Yahoo! Finance

California: Deals For Ottoman Empire Victims

If you were persecuted between 1915 and 1923, you get a tax exemption. If your troubles came in 1924 or later, however, there's no break.
 
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What do you Genocide denyers think about this? man I almost fell out of my chair. Please tell me this is not true or its just a stunt.



Turkish:



Translation please......

What do YOU genocide deniers think about the Azeri Genocide where over a million people were displaced and forced to flee simply for being Azeri, where the U.N condemned the Armenian actions during the Azeri-Armenian war, where the Armenian military and para military groups systematically destroyed homes, towns and cities and ended the lives of entire families and future generations.

Tell me how can a nation who cries genocide commit a genocide themselves?
 
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What do you Genocide denyers think about this? man I almost fell out of my chair. Please tell me this is not true or its just a stunt.



Turkish:



Translation please......

The reality you genocide deniers face is a landlocked country where gangs rule instead of law, where there are no foreigners who have no links to Armenian ancestry living in Armenia, where there is no religious diversity, where human rights are the lowest in the region and one of lowest in the world, where deluded stories are told of Turks being weak and defenseless and that future generations are tasked with reclaiming greater Armenia through wars of conquest, where people are starving all because of a war of conquest the Armenian nation decided to pursue when the nation of Azerbaijan was young and just coming out of communist rule.

No amount of crying to the international community with a falsified history and the commercialization of the "suffering Armenian people" is going to fix the problems of your nation. Problems that Armenia created herself through hatred for their neighbors and a war of conquest and extermination on the Azeri populace.

I hope you realize when you next time call Turks genocide deniers that you are actually talking about yourself and the Armenian nation.

Be smart insist your government opens her archives for the world's historians
 
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First of all this is a move that will reduce Turkey's influence in the region after all you have done in the region for gaining your prestige back.
And secondly you need your neighbors as much as you need NATO itself. The US force you determine your side.
Clearly, The US tells you that who will be your friends and who are enemies. This is unacceptable.

funny how your protectors become you oppressors .. not that you would recognise and accept that.. but between us we know the truth..

i don't know how honest your feelings are regarding your above statement, but if they are ..welcome to the side of the world we have been living since the 60's
 
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