US plays 'genocide' card to pressure Turkey on NATO missile system

[Saithan]

cabatli_53 is correct, what Ataturk did back then after the defeat was nothing short of a miracle, and we (the turks) can't afford to trust blindly on any of our allies.

The east was still pretty much caliphates and by breaking with the old leadership he also broke the turkish republics people free of the bond to the past where the caliphs word was pretty much law.

Religion became a personal matter and that is also how it should be. You and Allah, no one in between.

I know some of you have grand dreams of recreating the past, but I hope that will just remain a dream and that every muslim nation will be able to rise to greatness individually, because that would truly benefit all muslims. We don't want to experience "divide and conquor" again.

Just my opinion.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

There was not any "Empire" remained after WW1. As you see with above map that After Treaty of Sevres, Ottoman sultans signed, Anatolia had already been breaked into many pieces and Those Sultans had accepted it and defended How they resqued Anatolian lands with this signiture, What a proud agreement they signed without shame themselves. Different than geoghraphical seperation, There are lots of critical shocking articles giving the independace of Turkish Nation/Borders to foreign forces signed with threaty of Serves (I advise all of you to take a look of all articles of Treaty of Sevres to realise What We are talking about). They were M. Kemal Ataturk and his friends who rejected this shame situation and defended the independance of Turk nation against Imperials/Ottomans.


The Treaty of Sevres signatories of the Ottoman Empire. Left to right: Rıza Tevfik; Grand vizier Damat Ferid Pasha; ambassador Hadi Pasha; and the Ottoman Minister of Education Reşid Halis.

They were same Ottoman/British collaboration that called this independance movement like "Traitorism" and used "Khilafat" to convince the nation in accordance with benefits of Britain with holy Islam. Even Britain planes had dropped brochures telling (orders of "Khilafet") How Turkish nation has to act against Ataturk. Thanks Allah that Most of Turkish nation were not convinced and Independance movement became sucessfull. With this way, We can talk about Turkish achievements thanks to Ataturk now a days.

This is totally wrong... Look at what Lord Curzon said about the destruction of the Ottoman State...

The British Foreign Secretary, Curzon announced in the House of Commons, "The point at issue is that Turkey has been destroyed and shall never rise again, because we have destroyed her spiritual power: the Khilafah and Islam."

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

cabatli_53 is correct, what Ataturk did back then after the defeat was nothing short of a miracle, and we (the turks) can't afford to trust blindly on any of our allies.

The east was still pretty much caliphates and by breaking with the old leadership he also broke the turkish republics people free of the bond to the past where the caliphs word was pretty much law.

Religion became a personal matter and that is also how it should be. You and Allah, no one in between.

I know some of you have grand dreams of recreating the past, but I hope that will just remain a dream and that every muslim nation will be able to rise to greatness individually, because that would truly benefit all muslims. We don't want to experience "divide and conquor" again.

Just my opinion.

You are in for a real shocker then my friend... The Caliphate is most certainly going to return...

 

[cabatli_53]

This is totally wrong... Look at what Lord Curzon said about the destruction of the Ottoman State...

The British Foreign Secretary, Curzon announced in the House of Commons, "The point at issue is that Turkey has been destroyed and shall never rise again, because we have destroyed her spiritual power: the Khilafah and Islam."

Actually, If you ask me, It is totally wrong to assess an official history, written in archieves, based on a sentence of a British commander. It is true that they have managed to destroy Khalifat because After WW1, Khalifet had started working for the benefits of Britain/Ottoman collaboration to place under guardianship of the independance right of Anatolia nation with Threaty of Serves. If you do not possess the truths of Turkish history, At least take a look at the map of Serves and read Who signed and defended such a disgusting treaty and Who struggled againt it...

Besides, Do not forget that After establishment of Turkish Republic, Ottoman Sultan were left from Istanbul with British warships and The grandchildreen of those Sultans live in England now a days. All of them looks like British people. If This independance war could not be started, Half of Turks would look like British people as well and some others would be Greek, French...etc

The Caliphate is most certainly going to return...

Mate, No offence but You live in a dream world. Please Do not approach the historial events ideologically, Read official facts about history, M. Kemal Ataturk and try to analize the historical and current events more realistic...

In Additions, Independance is the most beautiful thing Allah sent to Human-Being. I, as a Turk, never accept an other country-nation (Even If It is a Muslim or not) that will agree on my own matters instead of me. Big borders means big problems with imperials. Mixed nations in same borders mean more different cultures. It also means much more problems to solve and manage. Although We have a population about 75 million, We are swimming in a problems' pool now a days. (Alevi problems, Armeni population problems, Cristian's problems, Greek schools problem, Kurd problems, Turban problems....etc) Think 200-300 million population under same management... Just a bad dream.

We are in 21. century. It is the age of science, technology, research and development in a Global World. It is not a matter How big your borders If you are able to live However you want so You can perform great mutual trades, collaborate However you want, remove visa requirements between countries, live like a same nation in different geoghraphies but I would never say an OK to a system proved its corruptness in history.

 

[SQ8]

I do agree with Saithan on religion being a personal matter.
It is always going to be my grave.. I will be judged for what I did.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Never throw stones at your neighbor's house when yours has glass windows.

 

[Iki Devlet Bir Millet]

Anyone care to enlighten me what the Alevi problem is?

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Actually, If you ask me, It is totally wrong to assess an official history, written in archieves, based on a sentence of a British commander. It is true that they have managed to destroy Khalifat because After WW1, Khalifet had started working for the benefits of Britain/Ottoman collaboration to place under guardianship of the independance right of Anatolia nation with Threaty of Serves. If you do not possess the truths of Turkish history, At least take a look at the map of Serves and read Who signed and defended such a disgusting treaty and Who struggled againt it...

Besides, Do not forget that After establishment of Turkish Republic, Ottoman Sultan were left from Istanbul with British warships and The grandchildreen of those Sultans live in England now a days. All of them looks like British people. If This independance war could not be started, Half of Turks would look like British people as well and some others would be Greek, French...etc




Mate, No offence but You live in a dream world. Please Do not approach the historial events ideologically, Read official facts about history, M. Kemal Ataturk and try to analize the historical and current events more realistic...

In Additions, Independance is the most beautiful thing Allah sent to Human-Being. I, as a Turk, never accept an other country-nation (Even If It is a Muslim or not) that will agree on my own matters instead of me. Big borders means big problems with imperials. Mixed nations in same borders mean more different cultures. It also means much more problems to solve and manage. Although We have a population about 75 million, We are swimming in a problems' pool now a days. (Alevi problems, Armeni population problems, Cristian's problems, Greek schools problem, Kurd problems, Turban problems....etc) Think 200-300 million population under same management... Just a bad dream.

We are in 21. century. It is the age of science, technology, research and development in a Global World. It is not a matter How big your borders If you are able to live However you want so You can perform great mutual trades, collaborate However you want, remove visa requirements between countries, live like a same nation in different geoghraphies but I would never say an OK to a system proved its corruptness in history.

Well I m not offended at all... You are obviously discussing with good manners...

Your point about the grand children of Sultans living in Britain is incorrect... I happen to know this because on the day I was returning from Istanbul, I read in the newspaper that the last known member of the Ottoman family had passed away... He left behind no children... This was back in 2008...

Also, I agree with you that having great borders means nothing if the people living in those borders have no substance, science or technology etc... where I would disagree if you think that the Caliphate would be a backward state and wont have science or technology... The Caliphate in the past has been at the forefront of all inventions at a time when the west was living in the dark ages under control of their corrupt church and priests... Moreover what is wrong with having a local administration with the current countries that we have as provinces in a single state... I m only saying this is because we Muslims are supposed to be like ONE BODY... and if one part of this body feels pain, the whole body feels pain... Even in the Quran the word used for Muslims is Ummat ul Wahid i.e ONE NATION... If something bad happens in Turkey, we Pakistanis will feel upset and the same is true if something bad happened in Pakistan, it is the Turks which feel unhappy about it...

As a passing comment and keeping the context of the original topic... I would like to tell you that a lot of what people think about the Ottomans is actually western propaganda... They have written so many lies about Ottomans in their history books that have absolutely no truth in reality... and I dont blame them because the west has always considered the Turks as enemies... lying is a particular British characteristic... but I do blame Muslims who read up these propaganda wars against the Ottomans and then think of it as truth...

The Armenian genocide is a classic example of this... It is all done to malign the good name of Sultan Abdul Hameed Han...

Also... the dream for the return of the Caliphate is no longer a dream... I remember a senior journalist in an international newspaper was telling me one day that she does not believe Muslims want Caliphate (she has travelled extensively all over the Muslim world) and I showed her a survey which shows that...

p. 22. “Majorities even agree with the ambitious goal ‘to unify all Islamic countries into a single Islamic state or caliphate’ (overall average 65%). Seventy-four percent of Pakistanis agreed with this goal, as did 71 percent of Moroccans and 67 percent of Egyptians. However, in Indonesia, only 49 percent agreed while 40 percent disagreed.”

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr07/START_Apr07_rpt.pdf

She has since then started taking me seriously I think...

 

[Jigs]

There was not any "Empire" remained after WW1. As you see with above map that After Treaty of Sevres, Ottoman sultans signed, Anatolia had already been breaked into many pieces and Those Sultans had accepted it and defended How they resqued Anatolian lands with this signiture, What a proud agreement they signed without shame themselves. Different than geoghraphical seperation, There are lots of critical shocking articles giving the independace of Turkish Nation/Borders to foreign forces signed with threaty of Serves (I advise all of you to take a look of all articles of Treaty of Sevres to realise What We are talking about). They were M. Kemal Ataturk and his friends who rejected this shame situation and defended the independance of Turk nation against Imperials/Ottomans.


The Treaty of Sevres signatories of the Ottoman Empire. Left to right: Rıza Tevfik; Grand vizier Damat Ferid Pasha; ambassador Hadi Pasha; and the Ottoman Minister of Education Reşid Halis.

They were same Ottoman/British collaboration that called this independance movement like "Traitorism" and used "Khilafat" to convince the nation in accordance with benefits of Britain with holy Islam. Even Britain planes had dropped brochures telling (orders of "Khilafet") How Turkish nation has to act against Ataturk. Thanks Allah that Most of Turkish nation were not convinced and Independance movement became sucessfull. With this way, We can talk about Turkish achievements thanks to Ataturk now a days.

Exactly but others have it set that the Ottoman empire was actually a good thing and Modern Turkey is the country that lacks. When in fact the Ottoman empire was crumbling even before WW1 and was in need have major reforming and complete overhaul in same areas. With the type of ideology the sultan and others had this would not have been possible. Ataturk was a once in a life time person. He had ideas that even now seem foreign to many ME countries.

 

[cabatli_53]

Your point about the grand children of Sultans living in Britain is incorrect... I happen to know this because on the day I was returning from Istanbul, I read in the newspaper that the last known member of the Ottoman family had passed away... He left behind no children... This was back in 2008...

Grandchildreen of Ottoman are in Turkey to learn Turkish.

Boris Johnson, The grandchild of Ali Kemal...

Roksan Kunter, The grandchild of Osman Nabi Osmanoglu

Also, I agree with you that having great borders means nothing if the people living in those borders have no substance, science or technology etc... where I would disagree if you think that the Caliphate would be a backward state and wont have science or technology... The Caliphate in the past has been at the forefront of all inventions at a time when the west was living in the dark ages under control of their corrupt church and priests..

Agree on some points but What I am trying to say that If you want to make great achievements on Si&Tec, No need to re-establish a system proved its corruptness and politic side against an Independance movement started to block destructive effects of treaty of Serves in past. If you want to achieve some process in Science and Civilzation, It is the key rule that You have to establish your Politic/Social/Law and Economic system in accordance with the necessities of centuries. Those neccesities change years by years. 100 years later, Maybe Secular states will support something different than current system. If you try to apply a failure system applied on 100 years ago, It means that You would not have any chance against Western rivals. The people wanting to see the name of own nation around elites, always imagine more and open their minds for innovations. It needs to break all walls in your mind but Religious based Politic systems (Allah sends Islam to teach the Inner World of Human-Being, Not for managements of countries) mostly establish walls on R&D, innovation, Education, Science in accordance with comment differences of Leaders/Imam's.

Take a look Iran. Many BASIC lessons are prohibited to teach cause of "creating anti-religious effects on public minds" so We, Most of Turks always defend religious things as a personnel matter. You and Allah without any link or other connections but States have to be like Blind to all Politic/Religious/Ideological cultures, life styles. Otherwise, When a Backward minded leader commenting the religious rules in accordance with own point of view come into force, It may cause to stop everything about future plans cause of RELIGIOUS reason.

I m only saying this is because we Muslims are supposed to be like ONE BODY... and if one part of this body feels pain, the whole body feels pain... Even in the Quran the word used for Muslims is Ummat ul Wahid i.e ONE NATION... If something bad happens in Turkey, we Pakistanis will feel upset and the same is true if something bad happened in Pakistan, it is the Turks which feel unhappy about it...

x2 I also support establishment of a union and I am also a hard supporter of such system but This union should not cause to change the REGIME of Turkiye. We may establish an union aiming economical, political, even military cooperations similar with EU but It is a different matter. Estalishment of a system based on Khilafat is much more different than what I am talking here...

As a passing comment and keeping the context of the original topic... I would like to tell you that a lot of what people think about the Ottomans is actually western propaganda... They have written so many lies about Ottomans in their history books that have absolutely no truth in reality... and I dont blame them because the west has always considered the Turks as enemies... lying is a particular British characteristic... but I do blame Muslims who read up these propaganda wars against the Ottomans and then think of it as truth...

I agree that Most of Europe countries look Turkiye like an enemy and act against to drive Turkey into corner but All I have told about history here is based on official historical facts about latest times of Ottoman, Treaty of Serves, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and Independance movement...etc Actually, The people who wants to blame Ataturk cause of IDEOLOGICAL reasons are trying to write a new history based on imaginations to direct Ataturk like a spy of Britain but Truths are clear, Maps are clear, The articles of Serves Ottoman signed is clear, What Ataturks' speeches against treaty of serves is clear, What Khalifat announced is clear. Those are painfull, shoking facts of Turkish history taken from Turkish official archieves.

 

[cabatli_53]

Anyone care to enlighten me what the Alevi problem is?

At current, Despite Million of people believe in accordance with rules/culture of Alevi religious sect, Turkish government has not recognized Alive's like one of official religious sect of Islam/Diyanet yet. Alevis want to be recognized like an official religious sect of Turkey. With this way, They can get funds from "Diyanet" to construct "Cem Evi" like Cami, included in education system in lesson books...etc

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

hmmm...

the examples that you are giving are not descendants of the original Ottoman Family...

BBC News - 'Last Ottoman' dies in Istanbul

 

[cabatli_53]

hmmm...

the examples that you are giving are not descendants of the original Ottoman Family...

BBC News - 'Last Ottoman' dies in Istanbul

If you remember the lastest times of Ottoman managements after applied "Mesrutiyet" reforms,There were a king coming from Ottoman family and a Government with restricted rights. It is called Parlamentarian monarchy now a days. The examples I gave you were the grandchildreen of those people locating in management of Ottoman that was deported to abroad by new Turkish Republic cause of (Traitorism) being acted against Independance of Turkish nation, Collaborated with Britain/Greeks to cut the way of Independance, signed Treaty of Serves agreement to seperate Anatolia into many pieces...etc After Turkish republic established, Sultan Vahidettin were taken by a British warship.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

At current, Despite Million of people believe in accordance with rules/culture of Alevi religious sect, Turkish government has not recognized Alive's like one of official religious sect of Islam/Diyanet yet. Alevis want to be recognized like an official religious sect of Turkey. With this way, They can get funds from "Diyanet" to construct "Cem Evi" like Cami, included in education system in lesson books...etc

I thought it was a recognized sect; though some may call it seperate from Islam. I've even met some Alevis who say they are simply Alevis (as opposed to Muslim). Basically, they are ultra Sufi -esque types, however they don't do Ramadan fast or hajj/umra. They attend Cem Evi where the men and women sit in circle and employ a mystical form of prayer. I respect the Alevis a lot, but I can see why there is debate over whether to accept them as an official Islamic sect.

in late 1970s and early 1980s, Alevis used to face tough times because many of them had communist sympathies; it is said that some of them were pro-Armenian, though I don't know if this is true. In Sivas Province, there was a huge sectarian violence involving Islamists and Alevis, many people died.


Today, I think Alevis, Sunnis and all the other religious groups get along okay. Turkiye was smart, they created a fine line between religious affairs and the State.

 

[Saithan]

There are quite a few descendants left.

Surviving members of Ottoman dynasty to establish foundation - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review