US Offers Taliban 6 Provinces for 8 Bases

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

The blowback into Pakistan will be something those who live comfortably out of state will not have to worry about, their families left behind will.

I was asuming that you might have the knowledge of ,The Good,The bad and The EVIL Talibans .
BTW just saw Gen Kiani statement that Taliban are no match for PA.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Says too much for your disregard for your muslim brothers and sisters in Afghanistan. You would happily chain and bind them as your private slaves.

Speaking of slaves , The condition through which the afghans are giong through after this election is best example of colonial slavery in moderen times ....
Ya i guess we would feel better to bring the GOOD , STRONG TALIBANS which the mighty ISAF couldnt defeat after eight long years of fighting, Back to the power in Afghanistan.
I feel pity for the Barbers , they wont be having much customers now . ...

 

[All-Green]

Geographically the width of Pakistan is very less as campare to India , you are only person who is denying importance of advantage of strategic depth .

Are you happy that India is builting infrastructure (roads,schools,telecom &power system) in Afghanistan ?

You are also not realizing the economic benefits which both Afghanistan and Pakistan could gain due to their strategic location.

Reconstructing Afghanistan - on oil and gas

Where do i deny that Pakistan is not very deep, however we can match India and it has not been a problem in the past so do not overemphasize the need for this strategic depth as it is not something we have ever been desperate to achieve in the terms of Afghanistan's territory, that has never been the objective of our Government...you have read too much into conspiracy theories and off the cuff remarks...

The reason we need Afghanistan on our side is basic enough, to have a good neighbor which is friendly to us and will leave us alone if we go to war with our traditional opponents.
Also the economic benefits are there and not lost on me, however when it comes to this bizarre assumption that we shall go to Afghanistan to fight another day...i cannot help but marvel at the aversion to reality being displayed in such a hypothesis...
and to consider it as the official game plan is Hilarious...

What good is this depth when ...

1) Afghanistan is not Pakistan so no matter how rosy the relationship is, one cannot expect our Army to march in such a destitute land and cannibalize on the precious few resources at the disposal of Afghanistan...this can never be a positive thing.
2) Tons of Mountains in between two countries ensure that there is no easy escape into Afghanistan with all the heavy weapons which make Pakistan Army a force to be reckoned with and without which it cannot be a professional and feared conventional force.
3) Extremely poor infrastructure in Afghanistan due to decades of war leaves no support for Pakistan's air force operations and not to mention any tanks or artillery...plus the ammunition factories in Pakistan will be available to Pakistan Army no more.
4) Never has our Army and its formations ever been trained in such a strategy and maneuver, no war game ever simulated this...to expect this as the official doctrine of Pakistan is quite strange.
5) The overwhelming psychological blow inflicted on the Pakistani populace in case of a mass exodus of their beloved Army from Pakistan will be the biggest factor turning the war permanently in favor of our enemy even if all the above factors are ignored, as such it is something one can never take seriously.
6) Pakistan is a nuclear armed nation, if we are threatened with extinction we shall not run to Afghanistan, we shall take our enemy down with us if it comes to that...otherwise why all the fuss about the nukes if we cannot even use them when we are on the brink of extinction...

A stable and friendly Afghanistan is always a need of Pakistan but not at all for this strategic depth especially when it is seen as a base of operations for PA in case of it's defeat in Pakistan...this is a very absurd idea!

 

[S-2]

"Speaking of slaves , The condition through which the afghans are giong through after this election is best example of colonial slavery in moderen times ...."

Really? Then you haven't yet worked for the Saudis I'm guessing?

 

[waraich66]

Where do i deny that Pakistan is not very deep, however we can match India and it has not been a problem in the past so do not overemphasize the need for this strategic depth as it is not something we have ever been desperate to achieve in the terms of Afghanistan's territory, that has never been the objective of our Government...you have read too much into conspiracy theories and off the cuff remarks...

The reason we need Afghanistan on our side is basic enough, to have a good neighbor which is friendly to us and will leave us alone if we go to war with our traditional opponents.
Also the economic benefits are there and not lost on me, however when it comes to this bizarre assumption that we shall go to Afghanistan to fight another day...i cannot help but marvel at the aversion to reality being displayed in such a hypothesis...
and to consider it as the official game plan is Hilarious...

What good is this depth when ...

1) Afghanistan is not Pakistan so no matter how rosy the relationship is, one cannot expect our Army to march in such a destitute land and cannibalize on the precious few resources at the disposal of Afghanistan...this can never be a positive thing.
2) Tons of Mountains in between two countries ensure that there is no easy escape into Afghanistan with all the heavy weapons which make Pakistan Army a force to be reckoned with and without which it cannot be a professional and feared conventional force.
3) Extremely poor infrastructure in Afghanistan due to decades of war leaves no support for Pakistan's air force operations and not to mention any tanks or artillery...plus the ammunition factories in Pakistan will be available to Pakistan Army no more.
4) Never has our Army and its formations ever been trained in such a strategy and maneuver, no war game ever simulated this...to expect this as the official doctrine of Pakistan is quite strange.
5) The overwhelming psychological blow inflicted on the Pakistani populace in case of a mass exodus of their beloved Army from Pakistan will be the biggest factor turning the war permanently in favor of our enemy even if all the above factors are ignored, as such it is something one can never take seriously.
6) Pakistan is a nuclear armed nation, if we are threatened with extinction we shall not run to Afghanistan, we shall take our enemy down with us if it comes to that...otherwise why all the fuss about the nukes if we cannot even use them when we are on the brink of extinction...

A stable and friendly Afghanistan is always a need of Pakistan but not at all for this strategic depth especially when it is seen as a base of operations for PA in case of it's defeat in Pakistan...this is a very absurd idea!

Bhai Sb,

look towards your enemy plans what they are doing in your back yard, they are developing road and communication network to use it in case of war against you.

Rather we should develop infrastucture of AFGHANISTAN which will help our air force and Army to use incase of war with India .

Try to understand the game plan of US and Israel and India.

 

[All-Green]

Bhai Sb,

look towards your enemy plans what they are doing in your back yard, they are developing road and communication network to use it in case of war against you.

Rather we should develop infrastucture of AFGHANISTAN which will help our air force and Army to use incase of war with India .

Try to understand the game plan of US and Israel and India.

Bhai Jan,

I am trying to break the years old myth about the claimed Pakistani ambition to incorporate Afghanistan as a base of operation for our Army...that is entirely garbage and has been rubbished by all there is to see in way of evidence.

I did not deliberately discuss the infrastructure development in Afghanistan currently being carried out by India because i wanted first to burst the bubble of the above mentioned theory which has been propagated by many as the reason for Taliban or as part and parcel of GOP or PA strategy.
This is not so and the reasons for Taliban as i have perceived are already given by me earlier in this thread.

Now coming to Afghanistan, Pakistan always enjoys a strategic advantage in being the neighbor of Afghanistan but how to exercise that advantage in current scenario?
Maybe we should start from Pakistan first and complete all the roads from Gwadar to rest of Pakistan, maybe even enhance the capacity of these roads. This shall ensure that eventually we shall have an excellent chance to be the hub of all transit and trade from central Asia...will that not help in thawing the relationship between our neighbors and bring in a new era?
Whether India makes the roads or any one else is not in our complete control but on our side of the border we should have ample capacity and lucrative options ready to facilitate trade and commerce on a gigantic scale...

Instead of being threatened by the road network in Afghanistan we should embrace the opportunity and look even further ahead...that is the only course left to us and not an entirely hopeless one at that.

Afghanistan will benefit from these roads and that is the primary thing.

 

[waraich66]

Bhai Jan,

I am trying to break the years old myth about the claimed Pakistani ambition to incorporate Afghanistan as a base of operation for our Army...that is entirely garbage and has been rubbished by all there is to see in way of evidence.

I did not deliberately discuss the infrastructure development in Afghanistan currently being carried out by India because i wanted first to burst the bubble of the above mentioned theory which has been propagated by many as the reason for Taliban or as part an parcel of GOP or PA strategy.
This is not so and the reasons for Taliban as i have perceived are already given by me earlier in this thread.

Now coming to Afghanistan, Pakistan always enjoys a strategic advantage in being the neighbor of Afghanistan but how to exercise that advantage in current scenario?
Maybe we should start from Pakistan first and complete all the roads from Gwadar to rest of Pakistan, maybe even enhance the capacity of these roads. This shall ensure that eventually we shall have an excellent chance to be the hub of all transit and trade from central Asia...will that not help in thawing the relationship between our neighbors and bring in a new era?
Whether India makes the roads or any one else is not in our complete control but on our side of the border we should have ample capacity and lucrative options ready to facilitate trade and commerce on a gigantic scale...

Instead of being threatened by the road network in Afghanistan we should embrace the opportunity and look even further ahead...that is the only course left to us and not an entirely hopeless one at that.

Afghanistan will benefit from these roads and that is the primary thing.

Again you are missing my point, forget all old theories, try to understand current enemy plans , we need to develop long term plan to counter indian US and Israeli plans.

Pakistan is currently under threat from both boarders eastern and wester due to our last eight years stupid Musharaf policies of US support.

Try to understand US game plan in area , US can not attack on us directly due to our nuke capabilities but they are doing long term planning to develop infrastructure in Afghanistan with help of NATO and India to mintor and restrict our army and nuke asset movements.

They also wanted to get access of central asian states gas and oil access and planning to bulit strong bases in heart of central asia where they can also monitor and attack Russian ,China and Iran .

 

[FireFighter]

"care to expand on your statement S-2, do you mean it's Pakistani people's worst nightmare or your Zardari's Pakistan's worst nightmare?"

I reject your snide assertion that "Zardari's Pakistan" is mine. I cast no vote. Please discuss this with those who did.

Neither do the obama and clinton regimes cast any vote. But we all see them flying back n' forth every few weeks to protect your zardari's pakistan by taming the military n the opposition forces as much as to the public's anger and dismay

As to the nightmare, whether one afghan taliban soldier or A.Q. militant crosses back into Pakistan following the taliban's conquest of Afghanistan at the point of a gun is immaterial. They WILL but simply their example and precedent will keep alive those same ambitions among your own highly radicalized segments.

Look around you now. It will be worse and you will view these days fondly in retrospective comparison.

Once again, they're your biggest nightmare not Pakistan's. Talibs are an indigenous movement, your media and generals testify to it. They're all very diff groups with varying objectives. Then again your tendency to view the Talibs, Al-Q thugs, TTP and anyone with an inch long beard all in same light shows your fears, prejudice and nightmares, not ours. And the TTP having been formed on the occasion of your drone attacks really don't help your warped-up thesis

"I might add that Pakistan cannot afford to allow Indian stooges to represent Afghanistan, even if Afghans decide to vote them in..."

Says too much for your disregard for your muslim brothers and sisters in Afghanistan. You would happily chain and bind them as your private slaves.

No one can enslave the Afghans. We never tried it nor have such aspirations. Your ISAF has been trying it for 8 years with no avail, so much regard to your mission of enslaving the Afghans your allies are pulling out of the hole, Canada being the first one 2011 (thank God). Good luck to you on that.

Indians conspiring against Pak under the nose and protection of US-backed Karzai's "muslim" regime, your n Karzai's 'muslims' allowing all sorts of mischievous activities i.e. drugs, to criminals, terrorists etc. have a free rein across the border into Pak says so much about your hypocritical approach to this issue

And since when did you become an advocate on muslim affairs? doesn't seem like you been reciting the correct kalima mate

Can you not offer more to afghans than submission at the point of a taliban weapon? I presume not lest you already would.

Once again, which Afghans are we talking about here? Your Karzai's Afghans that are all foreign imports or the actual Afghans that are fighting your forces? And I'm afraid history is going to repeat itself, you're going to desert the Afghans once again just like you deserted them after they fulfilled your objective and broke the soviet union. Not to mention what have u been offering them the past 8 years? a democracy with a brute force of 100,000 soldiers for its protection?

There's a reason you sit comfortably in Canada and pass judgement on others while lapping in the luxury of western freedoms and comforts.

Blowback from Afghanistan onto Pakistan by your preferences won't be striking into your home. Brutally cynical.

*I am a Westerner* so much to your dismay , and have my natural freedoms to exercise, which seems to be creating anger and frustrations to your limited cognitives shaped by provincialism...


I guess you're left with no more ammo that now you're resorting to personal attacks.. cheers lad

 

[Seadog1]

Taliban should be brought to their knees. after that is done then i think that the US should talk to them. I agree with S-2 and Ratus *** that the blow back in pakistan will be enourmous. after they come in power in kabul i assure you that they will give sanctuary to all the craizies that we are trying to hunt down and kill. This has happened before when the talibs were in power. A known militant from pakistan took refuge in afghanistan. when our guys went and asked for him the so called "leader of the faithful" flat out refused.

The Main reason that the USA is in Afganstan is that it does not want the country to be a place where Al Quada and terrorist groups can regroup and train for attacks on the USA and its allies,,,,if the USA fails Pakistan will probley suffer much more then the USA unless they can appease the terrorist to the point they wont attack Pakistan,,, but I expect the Taliban and Al Quada will take over Pakistan eventually,, they already have a good start.

 

[deathfromabove]

Allied forces ‘may abandon most of northern Helmand’

A new strategy for Afghanistan that could lead to a British troop withdrawal from a former Taleban stronghold in northern Helmand province sparked immediate controversy yesterday.

According to a senior Nato source, Western military commanders in Afghanistan are considering a radical shift in policy that would see British and US forces conduct a tactical pull-out from most of northern Helmand, including the town of Musa Qala. The source said that the plan to withdraw from northern Helmand would be considered if proposed reinforcements, currently being examined by President Obama, were not approved. General Stanley McChrystal, the US commander in Kabul, has asked for 40,000 more troops but President Obama has yet to make a decision.

British military sources said, however, that a withdrawal from Musa Qala would be viewed as a defeat and could not be countenanced. They said it would also be a betrayal of the governor of the district, who risked his life to take a stand against the insurgents.

Mullah Abdul Salaam, a former Taleban commander, switched sides to become district governor of Musa Qala only hours before British troops from 52 Brigade and Afghan soldiers retook the town from insurgent control in December 2007. British troops had withdrawn from Musa Qala in 2006 after a “deal” with the local tribal elders, but the Taleban seized control until the arrival of 52 Brigade.

The plans now being considered in Kabul would pull British and American troops out of the towns of Musa Qala and Nawzad to focus on stabilising the highly populated central areas of the province. The only remaining Western forces in the north of the province would be those defending the hydro-electric dam at Kajaki.

The plans are the most radical among options being considered by General McChrystal under a broader plan to shift forces towards the defence of more populous areas of the country, ceding outlying and remote areas. The new doctrine is focused on concentration of forces around population centres, main arteries and economic corridors with the ultimate aim of protecting the population and allowing intensive reconstruction.

A senior Nato officer confirmed that proposals existed for a pull-out from Nawzad and Musa Qala, but said: “No decision has been made.”

The senior British military sources insisted that total withdrawal from Musa Qala was not an option but acknowledged it was possible that the area in which troops currently operated in the district could be reduced to make available more resources for enhancing security in places such as Kandahar and Lashkar Gah.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, also denied that Britain was planning to pull out of Musa Qala, but he confirmed on the BBC Andrew Marr show that Nato’s International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) would be focusing more on Afghanistan’s main population centres.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: “Focusing on people, not territory, is not a retreat, it is the strategy set out by the Prime Minister in April and by General McChrystal in his recent review of strategy for Isaf. Nevertheless there are currently no plans to withdraw from any area of Helmand.”

US forces in eastern Afghanistan have already begun withdrawing from a number of combat outposts, mostly in remote areas close to the porous Pakistan border. Lieutenant-Colonel Todd Vician, US Army spokesman, confirmed that US forces have so far withdrawn from six outposts, four in Nuristan province and two in Paktika province.

Brigadier James Cowan who commands 11 Light Brigade in Helmand, denied that British troops might withdraw from outlying towns in the province. “We are here to protect Helmand, we have no plans whatsoever to withdraw,” he said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6908806.ece

 

[The Patriot]

You should be embarrassed Because US is an OCCUPIER. Not including the AIPAC and Evangelists and associates to them anything US and Israel does is legal.



Who is the bloody US to decide the future of Afghanistan and Iraq?

US has so far killed hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan and Iraq under the so called pretext of 9/11.

you missed the point. we are not discussing Iraq. Iraq is a different story. it was not sanctioned by the UN. But intervention in Afghanistan has a UN mandate.
When i said it is intervention it means it will go down the history as the US and allies intervention in Afghanistan. If you want to call it Occupation it will not make any difference.

 

[The Patriot]

someone please tell his poor chap that Afghani people have won against occupation forces, its now only a matter of time before it becomes official and they pull out.



And how you came to this conclusion of afghani people loving this demon-crazy? Say hi to karzai for me since you are in Afghanistan.

you can install fake puppets, but you cannot buy Phatan's honour, he will fight and die for it.

Its time you cowboys to learn some history.

and how did you reach this conclusion that Taliban represent majority of Afghan.
now you talk of Pashtun's honor.
buddy, Taliban is different from Pashtun. and if you say they are the same it would mean its both nationalist and religious movement. but it will not include Tajiks, Uzbeks and hazaras. then how can it represent Afghan people.

 

[The Patriot]

What you on? I take some too, will help me sleep.

whats wrong cowboy? to ashamed to fly your true colors?

is this your best shot.

 

[The Patriot]

While All-Green has summarized a sound refutation to your post.

I might add that Pakistan cannot afford to allow Indian stooges to represent Afghanistan, even if Afghans decide to vote them in, as is the case now under the nose of US, Pakistan must never allow such a case. And I don't think they would ever be able to come to power through a legit vote count either due to overwhelming Pashtuns historical dislike and reluctance towards foreign stooges. And pashtuns being a majority in afg is definitly a major tilt in our strategic favour, as their pashtun brethen live just across the border in Pakistan.

Secondly, there will always be small segments of afghans against Pakistan due to various reasons such as ideology or mistreatment under taliban and whatnot. but thats not a measure of the overall Afghan populations discontent. you'd always find similar cases in Kashmir, so does that mean we should abandon Kashmir and leave it altogether?

as far as my personal contact with Afghans is concerned, i have many afghan friends and its very positive, as I love them and they love me

Pashtuns being tilted to Pakistan is the greatest myth of all. I can bit my life on this. it is the Pashtuns who hate pakistan the most. tell me have you ever been to Afghanistan. i have visited Afghanistan during the Taliban times and then after their ouster. I am from frontier province and have come across thousands of Afghans. i have many friends too. they prove very good friends thats another thing. but Pashtuns never accept Durand line. they lay claims on Pakistani area. before the Taliban Pashtun presented a great threat to Pakistan and they raised the Pukhtunistan issue. Zahir shah did not accept Pakistan and so was Daud. Pakistan's only bit to tame Pashtuns was Taliban. Pakistan thought that being religious taliban will cause melt down in Pashtun nationalist feeling. but that didnt happen. Even taliban did not accept Durand line as international border. and once their interior minister entered Muhmand agency with hundreds of militants telling people that they dont need Afghan visas. these are our lands. and the last nail was the Pakistan's failed diplomacy to extract Osama. they didnt listen to Pakistan. these event had proved that Pakistan cannot build on Taliban in Afghanistan.
To cut it short, if Pakistan persists on making only Pashtuns its assets i think they will definitley fail as they have failed before. and in the process you make 50 per cent non-Pashtuns enemies.
This is fact that today Pakistan has lost all its assets in Afghanistan. There is no important Pakistani player in Afghanistan now.
and that is why Pakistan doesnt have any Afghan policy.

 

[The Patriot]

On Taliban supporters, members and sympathizers here
How can one argue with them when they support or follow a village idiot like Omar, who does not know nothing about Islam, who has never been out of his village for high Islamic scholarship, who killed thousands of innocent people, who denied education to women and beat them in streets, who did not allow women to work, who did ethnic cleansing of Hazaras, who did not have any social or economic system to offer to Afghans, who horboured terrorists like Osama and others, whose whole lot of followers and shura were all illiterate not only in contemporary knowledge but also in islam, who imposed his own version of islam, who caused great harm to islam and its image.
now if guys admire him, support him, or follow him, there is strong indication that they have no mental capacity. they are either mentally ill or have been brainwashed by their patrons. so arguing with such people is the waste of time. their beliefs are fixed. wish you luck with your Taliban.