US Offers Taliban 6 Provinces for 8 Bases

[deathfromabove]

The situation is quite complicated and we have to look at how it came to be...Taliban and Al Qaeda are not the same and this is what Pakistan has always maintained...
The Taliban might be very harsh and totalitarian and i totally disagree with most of their interpretation of Islam...but there is a reason they spread so fast in Afghanistan and we need to examine that reason which is entirely local in its nature and cannot be entirely understood by the people in developed countries who have jobs, education, social security, good infrastructure and food to fill their bellies...

After the Afghan Jihad the Mujahideen, Warlords and the drug barons all started to fight each other in a civil war which caused unprecedented destruction.
It led to a situation whereby the ordinary Afghan could not travel a few kilometers without having to encounter different law of the land at the hands of a different lord of the land...due to the chaos and lawlessness the situation was unbearable and the people suffered a lot both physically and mentally.
When the Taliban came and promised to deliver the people of this misery they were supported by the locals in each area and that is the sole reason that lead Taliban to capture so many provinces at a record rate...mostly the local war lords had to bend their knees when they saw that the Taliban were supported by the people.
Taliban did ensure a single set of laws (no matter how crude the civilized world sees them) and a central government which offered a much more stable life (of course this has to be compared with the post Afghan Jihad instability and is relevant in Afghanistan only).
Now i hated many Taliban actions and atrocities during their war but i know that after they had controlled the area, a person could travel there without fear of harassment as long as the Taliban law was observed...a giant leap from the previous regime under which the entire set of rules changed every mile and there were tax collectors lurking around every mountain...
The difference is that as opposed to a Somalia like chaos which was prevalent in Afghanistan, the Taliban ensured some order even if they are called very harsh enforcers.
I remember that the Saudis were very harsh as well but over a long period of time they have become much more mellow...they used to treat women harshly too but i have been there many times and it has changed tremendously now...in the long run the Taliban could have gone this way on their own as well...but this is my hypothesis...it could have been that they would have become highly unpopular and the people would have come out in the streets but even in this case they could have learnt their lesson and changed.
Anyways, in a post Taliban era the transition of thought could have occurred more smoothly since there was a central government in Afghanistan (barring the northern alliance area), stability is a prerequisite to nation building and compared to post Afghan Jihad era the Taliban gave stability...
They were not angels and certainly their interpretation of Shariah is very crude and impractical...however there was a chance that with passage of time and help from the world...there can be reconstruction in Afghanistan.
Come 9-11 the USA went after Al Qaeda but in doing so the Taliban and Al Qaeda were branded as the same, to me this was a huge mistake and has only resulted in making Al Qaeda stronger...Once the US landed in Afghanistan not just the Taliban but many Afghans saw this as a direct attack on Afghanistan and so the resistance of Taliban has been supported by many...
Yes the Taliban also displayed a lack of understanding and certainly a lack of diplomacy but then again i would like to emphasize that the US too opted to threaten Taliban into giving up Osama without any trial or face total war...knowing how proud Afghans are and having spent a good decade in this area, the US too could have opted to display more flexibility and understanding about how the things work here and how Osama was once part of the Mujahideen and how he had helped Taliban financially when they were desperate to manage the government...the Taliban needed to display some control even in handing over Osama to USA but this was denied even when they agreed to trial Osama in Afghanistan (was at least a big progress from the non commitment earlier)...the U.N. could have chosen to sit in the trial as well had this been given more serious thought...
The Taliban were certainly not graduates of Harvard and even many Muslims disagree with their interpretation of Islam but when they asked for evidence and offered to hold a trial for Osama in Afghanistan...most of the world and the media ridiculed them and the USA was absolutely unwilling to listen...
CNN.com - U.S. rejects Taliban offer to try bin Laden - October 7, 2001
so i have to say that not all efforts were exhausted before launching the attack...the Taliban were under extreme pressure and could have given in to this pressure...their offer to try Osama should have been taken seriously because they also knew the threat that the US posed and this stance was very different from the previous stance of Pashtun and Tribal honor which they cited as an inability to oust a guest from their country...in my view they were buckling under the pressure so the pressure should have been sustained but instead war was launched and it only helped Al Qaeda.

The crude Buddha statue stunt only signified that the Taliban desperately needed the money to run Afghanistan and resorted to such antics out of sheer desperation...there is no denying that Afghanistan was suffering tremendously due to lack of infrastructure, food, health facilities etc.
The post Afghan Jihad reconstruction never did happen so there was a constant decay in Afghanistan...however to sustain any reconstruction effort the Taliban at least offered a solution in terms of central government and authority...the fact that Osama was in Afghanistan and had cash only complicated the situation...however i still believe that Taliban and Osama were not same and despite the marriage of necessity, it was possible to separate the two.
I feel that in this regards there was no real sustained effort made and all avenues were not exhausted, this is my view especially when i see that in the end the Taliban were compromising on their stance in wake of the threat...

Now if the US wants to talk to them, it is a good thing...however in any such step Pakistan should play a key role as well since the stability in Afghanistan is not only critical to our well being but also the complications that have occurred have caused a great instability in Pakistan as well.
Pakistan has to be a peace broker so as to ensure that in the long run, even if US exits...Pakistan is not seen in a negative light by the Afghans...

My thoughts exactly. I totally agree with both your posts.

 

[waraich66]

Any people who consider that Taliban were supposed to be a strategic asset are dead wrong, Afghanistan does not offer us any strategic depth or potential base of operations to a well equipped modern Army coming from across the mountains....maybe guerrilla fighters but not Pakistan Army...had it come to this that there was an Indo Pak war and due to severe reverses nearly most of Pakistan would be in Indian hands then the conflict had much more chance of becoming Nuclear...but imagining the Pakistan Army and Air force moving to Afghanistan is downright bizarre.

To me the only reason we want good relations with any party in Afghanistan is because they share a huge border with us, and in case of civil war...the party controlling most of Afghanistan and the border is the one which Pakistan has to engage in dialogue.
This is why we shall always be tilting the Pushtoon way, however for us to support an unpopular leadership and enforce them upon the Afghans is not at all possible...we are not a super power with such resources and that much cash and infrastructure to support such an endeavor.

Disagree , Afghanistan have strategic importantance for us economically and defence point of view .

We need depth in case India attack on us ,there is no any different point of view.Both countries are gate way to central asian state rich in oil and gas resources.

Second point is our culture and religion and tradition is similar to Afghans , in the name Pakistan the word "a" is for Afghanistan.

For their own servival both countries need each other in war and peace.

Russia defeat in Afghanistan due to our Support and now US is failed because of Talaban got advantage of strategic depth inside Pakistan .

 

[FireFighter]

FireFighter, the first election was by and large fair. criminal and thugs are elected everywhere such as in Pakistan. let the Afghans decide what they want. you know why most Afghans hate pakistan, because of our support for Taliban. even now they blame pakistan for the chaos in their country. if you know Pashto and farsi pl visit their news site and you will come to know that instead of the US and other countries they hate Pakistan the most. your personal contact with Afghans will also testify it.

While All-Green has summarized a sound refutation to your post.

I might add that Pakistan cannot afford to allow Indian stooges to represent Afghanistan, even if Afghans decide to vote them in, as is the case now under the nose of US, Pakistan must never allow such a case. And I don't think they would ever be able to come to power through a legit vote count either due to overwhelming Pashtuns historical dislike and reluctance towards foreign stooges. And pashtuns being a majority in afg is definitly a major tilt in our strategic favour, as their pashtun brethen live just across the border in Pakistan.

Secondly, there will always be small segments of afghans against Pakistan due to various reasons such as ideology or mistreatment under taliban and whatnot. but thats not a measure of the overall Afghan populations discontent. you'd always find similar cases in Kashmir, so does that mean we should abandon Kashmir and leave it altogether?

as far as my personal contact with Afghans is concerned, i have many afghan friends and its very positive, as I love them and they love me

 

[All-Green]

Disagree , Afghanistan have strategic importantance for us economically and defence point of view .

We need depth in case India attack on us ,there is no any different point of view.Both countries are gate way to central asian state rich in oil and gas resources.

Second point is our culture and religion and tradition is similar to Afghans , in the name Pakistan the word "a" is for Afghanistan.

For their own servival both countries need each other in war and peace.

Russia defeat in Afghanistan due to our Support and now US is failed because of Talaban got advantage of strategic depth inside Pakistan .

The only importance is from the stability perspective and to ensure that there is no possibility of hostility from Afghanistan...other than that you have gotten it wrong...
The concept of Afghanistan as a base of PA operations is totally incorrect when we look at what Pakistan Army represents not only in men and material but psychologically as well...for an Army this large and strong to run away and dissolve into the mountains is not possible without letting go of its heavy weapons and what then will it do to the occupying forces?
Will this not end the war in favor of our enemy, after all if Pakistan Army runs away to another country not only the people of that country will be hard put but the people of Pakistan will never ever fight again...how can one do this if their own Army abandons the country and instead resorts to hit and run guerrilla attacks perpetrated from across the border...unbelievable tactics and 100% guaranteed to fail in case of Pakistan....

Our Army is not a rag tag bunch of lightly clad guerrilla fighters, we need fighter jets and heavy transport airbases, support infrastructure, armor and artillery repair centers and tons of other facilities to even consider falling back onto Afghanistan and hoping to stage a comeback...and this does not even take into account the huge psychological blow suffered by the nation if the Army runs away and vacates its own country...

Afghanistan does not offer us strategic depth from this point of view...
There is no point in Pakistan Army leaving Pakistan and retreating to Afghanistan...that was never the intent of Pakistan Army and is not their doctrine...

If it had come to this that Pakistan Army was mostly destroyed or India had occupied a majority of Pakistan then there is only one option left for Pakistan and it is certainly not turning tails and escaping to Afghanistan.

If such was the intent of Pakistan then the most logical entity was Iran and in our wars i think Iran was the one supporting Pakistan in past wars by giving oil and military assistance...not Afghanistan.
Afghanistan never supported Pakistan in its wars against India my friend...i am surprised that this little detail missed your radar...

Anyways there is no way this can be called an official Pakistan Army plan of war...we have had many war games and none ever simulated this scenario...no formations are trained for this and have ever been even briefed about this strategy...it does not exist...and to think that people consider this as something so simple as to be done for the first time in a real war is laughable and quite unbelievable...

 

[Ahmad]

Disagree , Afghanistan have strategic importantance for us economically and defence point of view .

We need depth in case India attack on us ,there is no any different point of view.Both countries are gate way to central asian state rich in oil and gas resources.

.

this is better and honest reply, and please dont pretend to care about people of afghanistan,

 

[Ahmad]

While All-Green has summarized a sound refutation to your post.

I might add that Pakistan cannot afford to allow Indian stooges to represent Afghanistan, even if Afghans decide to vote them in, as is the case now under the nose of US, Pakistan must never allow such a case. And I don't think they would ever be able to come to power through a legit vote count either due to overwhelming Pashtuns historical dislike and reluctance towards foreign stooges. And pashtuns being a majority in afg is definitly a major tilt in our strategic favour, as their pashtun brethen live just across the border in Pakistan.

Secondly, there will always be small segments of afghans against Pakistan due to various reasons such as ideology or mistreatment under taliban and whatnot. but thats not a measure of the overall Afghan populations discontent. you'd always find similar cases in Kashmir, so does that mean we should abandon Kashmir and leave it altogether?

as far as my personal contact with Afghans is concerned, i have many afghan friends and its very positive, as I love them and they love me

there is no majority in afghanistan, but pashtoons are indeed the largest ethnic group with 40% ethnically and 35% linguistically. for your information that it was the pashtoon king(zahir shah a corrup king) who didnt recognize pakistan's independence, it was Dawood(a pashtoon) who claimed on parts of pakistan and there are some other pashtoon parties and some pashtoon leaders who have the same ideas as Dawood khan.

you are very right that afghans get on well pakistanis, but it is with pakistani people and public, i challenge you to ask them about pakistani governments and their policies and see what they say.

 

[All-Green]

there is no majority in afghanistan, but pashtoons are indeed the largest ethnic group with 40% ethnically and 35% linguistically. for your information that it was the pashtoon king(zahir shah a corrup king) who didnt recognize pakistan's independence, it was Dawood(a pashtoon) who claimed on parts of pakistan and there are some other pashtoon parties and some pashtoon leaders who have the same ideas as Dawood khan.

you are very right that afghans get on well pakistanis, but it is with pakistani people and public, i challenge you to ask them about pakistani governments and their policies and see what they say.

People to people relationship matters a lot...if it is ok then we always have a chance of being friends with Afghanistan.
If it is the other way around then no chance...
We also too well remember the dislike which Afghan governments of the past have openly displayed for Pakistan, so it is a two way street.

However during Afghan Jihad, many Afghans saw Pakistanis as friends and not foes and same was reciprocated when we accepted millions of Afghans into Pakistan (though many criminal elements also slipped in due to our negligence and regret)...i do not think all of the goodwill can be erased so soon.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Is it true that we would have to countor those supported by India,Iran and Russia alone when the US departs from Afghanistan ...Or supporting Taliban heavilly would fix the problem ...?
I agree with the later one . The US has been supporting the Tajiks while ignoring the pushtoons scince past 8 years and hasnt brought them much success . Why not back Talibans supported by KSA and Pakistan(along with covert presence of US through blackwater or somebody else) . Things would eventually improve .

 

[Ahmad]

Is it true that we would have to countor those supported by India,Iran and Russia alone when the US departs from Afghanistan ...Or supporting Taliban heavilly would fix the problem ...?
I agree with the later one . The US has been supporting the Tajiks while ignoring the pushtoons scince past 8 years and hasnt brought them much success . Why not back Talibans supported by KSA and Pakistan(along with covert presence of US through blackwater or somebody else) . Things would eventually improve .

americans have their own benefit, they have supported Karzai for the last eight years, there are more pashtoon ministers than any other ethnic group. but all these dont matter as people of afghanistna are the only ones who are paying the price, not pashtoon karzai, not tajik abdullah, not mullah omar the puppet of pakistan or the americans. it is the poor people who are paying the price for political games betweeen the different countires.

 

[waraich66]

The only importance is from the stability perspective and to ensure that there is no possibility of hostility from Afghanistan...other than that you have gotten it wrong...
The concept of Afghanistan as a base of PA operations is totally incorrect when we look at what Pakistan Army represents not only in men and material but psychologically as well...for an Army this large and strong to run away and dissolve into the mountains is not possible without letting go of its heavy weapons and what then will it do to the occupying forces?
Will this not end the war in favor of our enemy, after all if Pakistan Army runs away to another country not only the people of that country will be hard put but the people of Pakistan will never ever fight again...how can one do this if their own Army abandons the country and instead resorts to hit and run guerrilla attacks perpetrated from across the border...unbelievable tactics and 100% guaranteed to fail in case of Pakistan....

Our Army is not a rag tag bunch of lightly clad guerrilla fighters, we need fighter jets and heavy transport airbases, support infrastructure, armor and artillery repair centers and tons of other facilities to even consider falling back onto Afghanistan and hoping to stage a comeback...and this does not even take into account the huge psychological blow suffered by the nation if the Army runs away and vacates its own country...

Afghanistan does not offer us strategic depth from this point of view...
There is no point in Pakistan Army leaving Pakistan and retreating to Afghanistan...that was never the intent of Pakistan Army and is not their doctrine...

If it had come to this that Pakistan Army was mostly destroyed or India had occupied a majority of Pakistan then there is only one option left for Pakistan and it is certainly not turning tails and escaping to Afghanistan.

If such was the intent of Pakistan then the most logical entity was Iran and in our wars i think Iran was the one supporting Pakistan in past wars by giving oil and military assistance...not Afghanistan.
Afghanistan never supported Pakistan in its wars against India my friend...i am surprised that this little detail missed your radar...

Anyways there is no way this can be called an official Pakistan Army plan of war...we have had many war games and none ever simulated this scenario...no formations are trained for this and have ever been even briefed about this strategy...it does not exist...and to think that people consider this as something so simple as to be done for the first time in a real war is laughable and quite unbelievable...

Geographically the width of Pakistan is very less as campare to India , you are only person who is denying importance of advantage of strategic depth .

Are you happy that India is builting infrastructure (roads,schools,telecom &power system) in Afghanistan ?

You are also not realizing the economic benefits which both Afghanistan and Pakistan could gain due to their strategic location.

Reconstructing Afghanistan - on oil and gas

 

[Seadog1]

Really the bottom line is you cant defeat a religon, prescution just makes it stronger,,,look at the Jews and Israel, 2000 years of perscution an Israel for its size is probably one of the most powerful nations on this earth both military and economically. "Until now Israel has had more business start ups then Chiina and India combined. A report released over the weekend by the research department of Dow Jones VentureSource says the two giant emerging economies combined have now passed Israel in the amount of venture capital invested in high-tech startups in the first quarter of 2008."
China, India together overtake Israel in startup investments - Haaretz - Israel News (Wow could Pakistan learn a lot from Israel.)

In the end some kind of accomdations will have to be made with the Taliban and religious radicals,,,I think Obama is pragmatic enough to realize that....

Neither in the end can groups like the Taliban be allowed to run wild and engage in terrorist activities, each time it happens enought of the Taliban or other leaders will have to be killed to make such behavior unproductive, any country that supports such people will be retaliated against and no goverment or groups will be safe by useing terrorist for their own gain and not accept responsiblity...

 

[S-2]

"care to expand on your statement S-2, do you mean it's Pakistani people's worst nightmare or your Zardari's Pakistan's worst nightmare?"

I reject your snide assertion that "Zardari's Pakistan" is mine. I cast no vote. Please discuss this with those who did.

As to the nightmare, whether one afghan taliban soldier or A.Q. militant crosses back into Pakistan following the taliban's conquest of Afghanistan at the point of a gun is immaterial. They WILL but simply their example and precedent will keep alive those same ambitions among your own highly radicalized segments.

Look around you now. It will be worse and you will view these days fondly in retrospective comparison.

"I might add that Pakistan cannot afford to allow Indian stooges to represent Afghanistan, even if Afghans decide to vote them in..."

Says too much for your disregard for your muslim brothers and sisters in Afghanistan. You would happily chain and bind them as your private slaves.

Can you not offer more to afghans than submission at the point of a taliban weapon? I presume not lest you already would.

There's a reason you sit comfortably in Canada and pass judgement on others while lapping in the luxury of western freedoms and comforts.

Blowback from Afghanistan onto Pakistan by your preferences won't be striking into your home. Brutally cynical.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

This:
As to the nightmare, whether one afghan taliban soldier or A.Q. militant crosses back into Pakistan following the taliban's conquest of Afghanistan at the point of a gun is immaterial. They WILL but simply their example and precedent will keep alive those same ambitions among your own highly radicalized segments.

Is the part that has for some mysterious reason and logic defying process slipped past all who want to see the ISAF forces out of Afghanistan and even welcome the taliban back there.

The blowback into Pakistan will be something those who live comfortably out of state will not have to worry about, their families left behind will.

 

[bigmoneymaker]

what??? the so so so righteous and justice usa is going to trade with the terrorists? how can this be possible? is it true or another rumour?

 

[kidwaibhai]

Taliban should be brought to their knees. after that is done then i think that the US should talk to them. I agree with S-2 and Ratus *** that the blow back in pakistan will be enourmous. after they come in power in kabul i assure you that they will give sanctuary to all the craizies that we are trying to hunt down and kill. This has happened before when the talibs were in power. A known militant from pakistan took refuge in afghanistan. when our guys went and asked for him the so called "leader of the faithful" flat out refused.