3000 dead americans on 911 make Afghanistan americas business,,,even if USA troops leave their will a 1000 drones over head....its just a matter of time, a 1000 years from the Taliban will be called the Morlocks.
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US Offers Taliban 6 Provinces for 8 Bases
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3000 dead americans on 911 make Afghanistan americas business,,,even if USA troops leave their will a 1000 drones over head....its just a matter of time, a 1000 years from the Taliban will be called the Morlocks.
FireFighter
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It's quite clear you're alien to the meaning of ''democracy'' and ''freedom" and "independence''. Democracy can never be forced on people and can never exist if a nation is living under the barrel of guns. Pray tell me how can you have a democratic govn't when criminals, mafias, drug lords, and murderers are imposed on you as leaders to form a government? With widespread voting frauds, how do you ever expect such a fair result?
care to expand on your statement S-2, do you mean it's Pakistani people's worst nightmare or your Zardari's Pakistan's worst nightmare?
Pak is a nightmare for some of the regional and world powers already, according to your foreign secretary of state it's western world's 'migraine', how could it have nightmares herself?
ARSENAL6
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Oh excellent !
10 years of Vietnam makaes it their business
100s young Japaneses children Masscre due to two atomic bombs
in WW2 makes it their business
200 years of Black Slavery makes it their business
200 years of Red Indian MAssrce make it their business
70 years of supporting Israel against the Muslim makes it Muslim
business
10 years of Supporting the Afgan against the Soviets makes their
business
10 years of supporting the Shah of Iran who mass murdred many
Iranians makes it their Business
3 years of pumping depleated Unrnauim in Iraq makes their
Business
1 million Afgans alone today Civillain who have nothing to do with
terrorism Makes it their business
The Support of corrupt regims in South America and Cuba + central AMerica by the US who have in total killed millions makes it their business.
Each One of them has a Business to fly A10s, Stealth bombers, B-52s, f22s, f16s launch Cruise missiles to bomb AMerica back to the stone age if its America business to bomb Afganistan (Namely Civillans and thast the Huge joke cus the Alkyder is still their figheting the US troop s !!!!) after 9/11.
Keep your warmonger crap to yourself period !
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The modern world is not going to surrender to premitive backward barbaric religious fanatics..that failed to evolve from the middleages,,,this conflict is inevitable and will last for generations but in the end like all those that failed to evolve to meet the changeing world they will be destroyed and in the mean time they will turn the areas they live in to living hells.
FireFighter
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Sorry to burst your bubble full of hot air, It's an ideological war between forces of imperialism that thrives on exploitation vs. those that resist them. Yesterday they were god-less commies, socialists, and maoists and they were defeated with the fall of berlin war and SU. unfortunately today they happen to be militants inspired by religious ideologies that happen to find justifications from Islam for their resistance.
A.Rahman
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This is where you are wrong, Allah (swt) has promised victory for people who are on the right path, Inshallah Mujahadeen will kick out Crusader occupiers and their cronies from muslim land.
Allah, the Most High says,
and it was due from us to aid (give victory) those who believed. [Al Quran 30:47]
When we get our belief right, then Allah will grant us victory.
However we should be patient, as the believers will go through many tests before victory is granted.
Victory of Allah is on its way, this is the promise of Allah. If it doesnt happen in our lifetime it will happen in our children's lifetime, but it will happen.
Maybe Allah is on the side of America, he certainly did not help out Iraq and Saddam or Omar and Afganstan very much so far....perhaps Allah dont approve of suicide bombing and burying young girls alive,,,and blasphemy laws perhaps he aproves more of a county that treat women decently and allows people to choose what religion they want to follow...perhaps Afganstan and Pakistan have so many problems they dont follow the Quran as well as America.
All-Green
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The situation is quite complicated and we have to look at how it came to be...Taliban and Al Qaeda are not the same and this is what Pakistan has always maintained...
The Taliban might be very harsh and totalitarian and i totally disagree with most of their interpretation of Islam...but there is a reason they spread so fast in Afghanistan and we need to examine that reason which is entirely local in its nature and cannot be entirely understood by the people in developed countries who have jobs, education, social security, good infrastructure and food to fill their bellies...
After the Afghan Jihad the Mujahideen, Warlords and the drug barons all started to fight each other in a civil war which caused unprecedented destruction.
It led to a situation whereby the ordinary Afghan could not travel a few kilometers without having to encounter different law of the land at the hands of a different lord of the land...due to the chaos and lawlessness the situation was unbearable and the people suffered a lot both physically and mentally.
When the Taliban came and promised to deliver the people of this misery they were supported by the locals in each area and that is the sole reason that lead Taliban to capture so many provinces at a record rate...mostly the local war lords had to bend their knees when they saw that the Taliban were supported by the people.
Taliban did ensure a single set of laws (no matter how crude the civilized world sees them) and a central government which offered a much more stable life (of course this has to be compared with the post Afghan Jihad instability and is relevant in Afghanistan only).
Now i hated many Taliban actions and atrocities during their war but i know that after they had controlled the area, a person could travel there without fear of harassment as long as the Taliban law was observed...a giant leap from the previous regime under which the entire set of rules changed every mile and there were tax collectors lurking around every mountain...
The difference is that as opposed to a Somalia like chaos which was prevalent in Afghanistan, the Taliban ensured some order even if they are called very harsh enforcers.
I remember that the Saudis were very harsh as well but over a long period of time they have become much more mellow...they used to treat women harshly too but i have been there many times and it has changed tremendously now...in the long run the Taliban could have gone this way on their own as well...but this is my hypothesis...it could have been that they would have become highly unpopular and the people would have come out in the streets but even in this case they could have learnt their lesson and changed.
Anyways, in a post Taliban era the transition of thought could have occurred more smoothly since there was a central government in Afghanistan (barring the northern alliance area), stability is a prerequisite to nation building and compared to post Afghan Jihad era the Taliban gave stability...
They were not angels and certainly their interpretation of Shariah is very crude and impractical...however there was a chance that with passage of time and help from the world...there can be reconstruction in Afghanistan.
Come 9-11 the USA went after Al Qaeda but in doing so the Taliban and Al Qaeda were branded as the same, to me this was a huge mistake and has only resulted in making Al Qaeda stronger...Once the US landed in Afghanistan not just the Taliban but many Afghans saw this as a direct attack on Afghanistan and so the resistance of Taliban has been supported by many...
Yes the Taliban also displayed a lack of understanding and certainly a lack of diplomacy but then again i would like to emphasize that the US too opted to threaten Taliban into giving up Osama without any trial or face total war...knowing how proud Afghans are and having spent a good decade in this area, the US too could have opted to display more flexibility and understanding about how the things work here and how Osama was once part of the Mujahideen and how he had helped Taliban financially when they were desperate to manage the government...the Taliban needed to display some control even in handing over Osama to USA but this was denied even when they agreed to trial Osama in Afghanistan (was at least a big progress from the non commitment earlier)...the U.N. could have chosen to sit in the trial as well had this been given more serious thought...
The Taliban were certainly not graduates of Harvard and even many Muslims disagree with their interpretation of Islam but when they asked for evidence and offered to hold a trial for Osama in Afghanistan...most of the world and the media ridiculed them and the USA was absolutely unwilling to listen...
CNN.com - U.S. rejects Taliban offer to try bin Laden - October 7, 2001
so i have to say that not all efforts were exhausted before launching the attack...the Taliban were under extreme pressure and could have given in to this pressure...their offer to try Osama should have been taken seriously because they also knew the threat that the US posed and this stance was very different from the previous stance of Pashtun and Tribal honor which they cited as an inability to oust a guest from their country...in my view they were buckling under the pressure so the pressure should have been sustained but instead war was launched and it only helped Al Qaeda.
The crude Buddha statue stunt only signified that the Taliban desperately needed the money to run Afghanistan and resorted to such antics out of sheer desperation...there is no denying that Afghanistan was suffering tremendously due to lack of infrastructure, food, health facilities etc.
The post Afghan Jihad reconstruction never did happen so there was a constant decay in Afghanistan...however to sustain any reconstruction effort the Taliban at least offered a solution in terms of central government and authority...the fact that Osama was in Afghanistan and had cash only complicated the situation...however i still believe that Taliban and Osama were not same and despite the marriage of necessity, it was possible to separate the two.
I feel that in this regards there was no real sustained effort made and all avenues were not exhausted, this is my view especially when i see that in the end the Taliban were compromising on their stance in wake of the threat...
Now if the US wants to talk to them, it is a good thing...however in any such step Pakistan should play a key role as well since the stability in Afghanistan is not only critical to our well being but also the complications that have occurred have caused a great instability in Pakistan as well.
Pakistan has to be a peace broker so as to ensure that in the long run, even if US exits...Pakistan is not seen in a negative light by the Afghans...
The Taliban might be very harsh and totalitarian and i totally disagree with most of their interpretation of Islam...but there is a reason they spread so fast in Afghanistan and we need to examine that reason which is entirely local in its nature and cannot be entirely understood by the people in developed countries who have jobs, education, social security, good infrastructure and food to fill their bellies...
After the Afghan Jihad the Mujahideen, Warlords and the drug barons all started to fight each other in a civil war which caused unprecedented destruction.
It led to a situation whereby the ordinary Afghan could not travel a few kilometers without having to encounter different law of the land at the hands of a different lord of the land...due to the chaos and lawlessness the situation was unbearable and the people suffered a lot both physically and mentally.
When the Taliban came and promised to deliver the people of this misery they were supported by the locals in each area and that is the sole reason that lead Taliban to capture so many provinces at a record rate...mostly the local war lords had to bend their knees when they saw that the Taliban were supported by the people.
Taliban did ensure a single set of laws (no matter how crude the civilized world sees them) and a central government which offered a much more stable life (of course this has to be compared with the post Afghan Jihad instability and is relevant in Afghanistan only).
Now i hated many Taliban actions and atrocities during their war but i know that after they had controlled the area, a person could travel there without fear of harassment as long as the Taliban law was observed...a giant leap from the previous regime under which the entire set of rules changed every mile and there were tax collectors lurking around every mountain...
The difference is that as opposed to a Somalia like chaos which was prevalent in Afghanistan, the Taliban ensured some order even if they are called very harsh enforcers.
I remember that the Saudis were very harsh as well but over a long period of time they have become much more mellow...they used to treat women harshly too but i have been there many times and it has changed tremendously now...in the long run the Taliban could have gone this way on their own as well...but this is my hypothesis...it could have been that they would have become highly unpopular and the people would have come out in the streets but even in this case they could have learnt their lesson and changed.
Anyways, in a post Taliban era the transition of thought could have occurred more smoothly since there was a central government in Afghanistan (barring the northern alliance area), stability is a prerequisite to nation building and compared to post Afghan Jihad era the Taliban gave stability...
They were not angels and certainly their interpretation of Shariah is very crude and impractical...however there was a chance that with passage of time and help from the world...there can be reconstruction in Afghanistan.
Come 9-11 the USA went after Al Qaeda but in doing so the Taliban and Al Qaeda were branded as the same, to me this was a huge mistake and has only resulted in making Al Qaeda stronger...Once the US landed in Afghanistan not just the Taliban but many Afghans saw this as a direct attack on Afghanistan and so the resistance of Taliban has been supported by many...
Yes the Taliban also displayed a lack of understanding and certainly a lack of diplomacy but then again i would like to emphasize that the US too opted to threaten Taliban into giving up Osama without any trial or face total war...knowing how proud Afghans are and having spent a good decade in this area, the US too could have opted to display more flexibility and understanding about how the things work here and how Osama was once part of the Mujahideen and how he had helped Taliban financially when they were desperate to manage the government...the Taliban needed to display some control even in handing over Osama to USA but this was denied even when they agreed to trial Osama in Afghanistan (was at least a big progress from the non commitment earlier)...the U.N. could have chosen to sit in the trial as well had this been given more serious thought...
The Taliban were certainly not graduates of Harvard and even many Muslims disagree with their interpretation of Islam but when they asked for evidence and offered to hold a trial for Osama in Afghanistan...most of the world and the media ridiculed them and the USA was absolutely unwilling to listen...
CNN.com - U.S. rejects Taliban offer to try bin Laden - October 7, 2001
so i have to say that not all efforts were exhausted before launching the attack...the Taliban were under extreme pressure and could have given in to this pressure...their offer to try Osama should have been taken seriously because they also knew the threat that the US posed and this stance was very different from the previous stance of Pashtun and Tribal honor which they cited as an inability to oust a guest from their country...in my view they were buckling under the pressure so the pressure should have been sustained but instead war was launched and it only helped Al Qaeda.
The crude Buddha statue stunt only signified that the Taliban desperately needed the money to run Afghanistan and resorted to such antics out of sheer desperation...there is no denying that Afghanistan was suffering tremendously due to lack of infrastructure, food, health facilities etc.
The post Afghan Jihad reconstruction never did happen so there was a constant decay in Afghanistan...however to sustain any reconstruction effort the Taliban at least offered a solution in terms of central government and authority...the fact that Osama was in Afghanistan and had cash only complicated the situation...however i still believe that Taliban and Osama were not same and despite the marriage of necessity, it was possible to separate the two.
I feel that in this regards there was no real sustained effort made and all avenues were not exhausted, this is my view especially when i see that in the end the Taliban were compromising on their stance in wake of the threat...
Now if the US wants to talk to them, it is a good thing...however in any such step Pakistan should play a key role as well since the stability in Afghanistan is not only critical to our well being but also the complications that have occurred have caused a great instability in Pakistan as well.
Pakistan has to be a peace broker so as to ensure that in the long run, even if US exits...Pakistan is not seen in a negative light by the Afghans...
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H2O3C4Nitrogen
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Ultimately that was the final achievement wasnt it .Let them fight each other to buy some time ....
Its an evolutionary process . The Europeans have been through it .
I belive Afghans have a history . The law of unintended consequences holds well . I dont know about the God turning his back on to the Afghans but i am Certinly amazed to see how those Goat herders ,Under nutrished with their old Kalashnikovs could fight a well equiped army of 40 Nations for a considerable period . Unbelievable ...isnt it .
In short i believe Afghans have learned a bitter lesson over a span of 4 decades . They have attained some degree of maturity .
America reaped what it soed and yet again it shall reap what it will soe this time .
Yet again , its an evolutionary process and the final show is yet to come ...
here is a report by human rights watch:
Civilian deaths in Afghanistan from US and NATO airstrikes nearly tripled from 2006 to 2007, with recent deadly airstrikes exacerbating the problem and fuelling a public backlash, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today. The report also condemns the Talibans use of human shields in violation of the laws of war.
The 43-page report, Troops in Contact: Airstrikes and Civilian Deaths in Afghanistan, analyzes the use of airstrikes by US and NATO forces and resulting civilian casualties, particularly when used to make up for the lack of ground troops and during emergency situations. Human Rights Watch found few civilian deaths resulted from planned airstrikes, while almost all deaths occurred in unplanned airstrikes.
Rapid response airstrikes have meant higher civilian casualties, while every bomb dropped in populated areas amplifies the chance of a mistake, said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. Mistakes by the US and NATO have dramatically decreased public support for the Afghan government and the presence of international forces providing security to Afghans.
The report documents how insurgent forces have contributed to the civilian toll from airstrikes by deploying their forces in populated villages, at times with the specific intent to shield their forces from counterattack, a serious violation of the laws of war. Human Rights Watch found several instances where Taliban forces purposefully used civilians as shields to deter US and NATO attacks.
In 2006, at least 929 Afghan civilians were killed in fighting related to the armed conflict. Of those, at least 699 died during Taliban attacks (including suicide bombings and other bombings unlawfully targeting civilians) and at least 230 died during US or NATO attacks. Of the latter, 116 were killed by US or NATO airstrikes. In 2007, at least 1,633 Afghan civilians were killed in fighting related to the armed conflict. Of those, some 950 died during attacks by the various insurgent forces, including the Taliban and al-Qaeda. At least 321 were killed by US or NATO airstrikes. Thus, civilian deaths from US and NATO airstrikes nearly tripled from 2006 to 2007.
In the first seven months of 2008, at least 540 Afghan civilians were killed in fighting related to the armed conflict. Of those, at least 367 died during attacks by the various insurgent forces and 173 died during US or NATO attacks. At least 119 were killed by US or NATO airstrikes. For all periods cited, Human Rights Watch uses the most conservative figures available
The Patriot
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It's quite clear you're alien to the meaning of ''democracy'' and ''freedom" and "independence''. Democracy can never be forced on people and can never exist if a nation is living under the barrel of guns. Pray tell me how can you have a democratic govn't when criminals, mafias, drug lords, and murderers are imposed on you as leaders to form a government? With widespread voting frauds, how do you ever expect such a fair result?
FireFighter, the first election was by and large fair. criminal and thugs are elected everywhere such as in Pakistan. let the Afghans decide what they want. you know why most Afghans hate pakistan, because of our support for Taliban. even now they blame pakistan for the chaos in their country. if you know Pashto and farsi pl visit their news site and you will come to know that instead of the US and other countries they hate Pakistan the most. your personal contact with Afghans will also testify it.
FireFighter, the first election was by and large fair. criminal and thugs are elected everywhere such as in Pakistan. let the Afghans decide what they want. you know why most Afghans hate pakistan, because of our support for Taliban. even now they blame pakistan for the chaos in their country. if you know Pashto and farsi pl visit their news site and you will come to know that instead of the US and other countries they hate Pakistan the most. your personal contact with Afghans will also testify it.
All-Green
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Nobody can impose a government on Afghans against their will and succeed...Taliban are not a creation of outside forces as everyone wants to believe...they are very much a reaction of what came to pass after the Afghan Jihad in the form of a brutal civil war and chaos...
Some Afghans have always disliked Pakistan and that wont change...i guess one cannot please everyone...However keeping in mind the hostility of Afghanistan towards Pakistan since the birth of Pakistan...i can safely say that things have only improved.
We fought the Afghan Jihad to keep the Red Bear off our door but many things we did for the Afghans were not necessity of this war but happened due to goodwill and the spirit to help those in need.
However it must be kept in mind that anyone formulating the foreign policy in Pakistan has to ensure that the Pushtoon Afghans are happy with Pakistan...this is because they are the ones who control the land adjacent to our border for the most part.
The fact that Taliban were mostly Pushtoon and swept away all resistance in most of the provinces within months, clearly indicates that GOP had no choice but to recognize them...after all whom do you think was the popular choice of the people, if not the Taliban then there was no single entities but many dozens of factions, each one boasting to be the popular ones...however the fact is that due to local support ...the Taliban were dominant and defeated the hundreds of warlords...
If people think this was because of Pakistani ambitions, then i must say...hats off to such intelligence...by virtue of same line of thought i guess it would be very easy for USA to help NA conquer all of Afghanistan and have similar control as Taliban...have they achieved this?
I guess the Russians should also have enabled their communists toadies to control Afghanistan...how come they failed as well?
Reason is very simple...the Afghans did not support them and most turned against them...however many supported the Taliban for they could not succeed otherwise, after all they fought with the same weapons and technology as their competitors...it could not have happened so easily had this local support not been a reality...one has to understand that in the initial phase of the campaign the Taliban did not resort to the more brutal tactics they resorted to later....they were seen as liberators and a unifying entity...maybe none of us would want a Taliban style rule but then how many of us have gone through what the Afghans were put through...i do not judge them for supporting the Taliban...a central authority no matter how severe was still better than a perpetual state of civil war and anarchy which was prevalent before the rise of Taliban...this is the key thing which has to be understood...
There was something even more horrible and unacceptable before the Taliban stepped in...had this not been the case, there is no way in hell anyone in Afghanistan would have supported them.
I would reiterate that to me the Taliban are misguided on most accounts but one cannot deny that they had Afghanistan in firm control especially wherever there was a Pushtoon majority...
In short, to Pakistan they controlled all the Afghanistan that mattered to us in terms of stability and coherence.
It would have been really stupid to not recognize the Taliban...had we done so then we would have denied majority of Afghans the food and commodities of life that are traded via Pakistan...after all one cannot have commerce with a government you do not recognize...
Would this have helped in creating a positive impression of Pakistan...i think not.
I think the diplomatic relationship which Pakistan had with Taliban is not something to be ashamed about, even while i dislike many acts of Taliban and consider them very harsh.
Any people who consider that Taliban were supposed to be a strategic asset are dead wrong, Afghanistan does not offer us any strategic depth or potential base of operations to a well equipped modern Army coming from across the mountains....maybe guerrilla fighters but not Pakistan Army...had it come to this that there was an Indo Pak war and due to severe reverses nearly most of Pakistan would be in Indian hands then the conflict had much more chance of becoming Nuclear...but imagining the Pakistan Army and Air force moving to Afghanistan is downright bizarre.
To me the only reason we want good relations with any party in Afghanistan is because they share a huge border with us, and in case of civil war...the party controlling most of Afghanistan and the border is the one which Pakistan has to engage in dialogue.
This is why we shall always be tilting the Pushtoon way, however for us to support an unpopular leadership and enforce them upon the Afghans is not at all possible...we are not a super power with such resources and that much cash and infrastructure to support such an endeavor.
The Patriot
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Agreed. thats how someone should respond. thanks
waraich66
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There have been three muslim nations of which I'm aware that have provided troops- Turkey and the U.A.E. have actually provided peace-keepers (trigger-pullers) while Egypt has sent a field hospital unit.
After that, Islam has stayed out.
Of course all we read here is the U.S. That is for convenience sake of perpetrating the hate of America and to avoid the logic of trying to explain 39 other nations that have offered their blood and treasury. Doing so would negate the message of U.S. occupation though, evidently, according to many here we ABANDONED Afghanistan following the Soviet departure.
That, in itself, is a fascinatingly perverse twist of geo-politics as it's very, very unlikely that the Soviet Union would have left at all had we intended to stay. More likely, they would have not accepted any treaty that placed America adjacent to their southern soviet socialist republics. Equally, there's the interesting question of prior historical interest in the area by America. It didn't exist at all. Finally, there's the interesting supposition that, had we stayed, we'd quickly and universally been condemned as neo-colonialist occupiers...
...as we are now.
In short, any way it's sliced Islam would have offered one big fat,
"Fcuk you very much, America!"
Now, of course, inviting the wahabbi KSA would mean taliban support. Inviting Iran would mean Hazara, Uzbek, turkomen and tajik support. Pakistan would weigh in with the KSA likely and it would be off to another civil war with the proxy mentors INCOUNTRY.
What a mess that'd be.
It's why muslim nations just aren't a fit. The poor afghans would again be twisting and dancing to somebody else's tune in another bloody and open civil war.
It'll happen anyway. No amount of time by the west to unfcuk Afghanistan shall prove adequate. It's so easy to feel the love of ummahness and islamic brotherhood that others have for Afghanistan.
It's a land and people that even God has turned his back on.
1.5 Billion muslims are just watching what US is doing in Afghanistan killing innocient muslim for sake of peace but could not do any thing because they are divided.
UK in 1924 broke Ummah (saltenate Usmania) into many pieces to paralyse them, now with name of Ummah ,US is alergic and Afraid.
If whole Muslim UMMAH gather under one flag then only they could make any decision independently without the influence of US and Allies have only one aganda to capture and secure the trade sea routes and oil reserves all over the world.
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