UNGA speech: Nawaz proposes 4-point peace initiative with India

[Icarus]

He's your former DG.

Enjoy Kasab's confession. Thanx

Do you not understand basic law? A video is not sufficient evidence in the court of law. You need a statement recorded by the magistrate with his guarantee that the statement was not made under duress. Quit derailing the thread and remain on topic. This isn't the Kasab thread its the NS UNGA 4 Point Peace Initiative Thread.

 

[ito]

Well here is NS, offering for the first time to accept a compromise on Kashmir WITHOUT mentioning the plebiscite, giving him more room to maneuver and offering India the chance to recognize this concession from Pakistan's side. Practical or not, its a massive show of commitment to the cause of peace from his side and an attempt to work out a workable solution by creating some room for compromise.

I am sure India has noted that the four point formula of NS has no mention of plebiscite.

 

[nair]

Well here is NS, offering for the first time to accept a compromise on Kashmir WITHOUT mentioning the plebiscite, giving him more room to maneuver and offering India the chance to recognize this concession from Pakistan's side. Practical or not, its a massive show of commitment to the cause of peace from his side and an attempt to work out a workable solution by creating some room for compromise.

Do you believe he has the power and courage to take a call on policies wrt to India?????

 

[third eye]

Bring its terms to the table for a start, so far all we've had from their side is rhetoric.

*Stop border crossers (Sure, just highlight where they're crossing from)
*Shut down camps in Azad Kashmir (Will do, coordinates or pictures from your satellite maybe?)
*Stop sponsoring terrorist (We're locked in a decade long war with terrorists, that policy is long dead)

Is this all ?

You have a military background and know how things work, you cant be serious on points highlighted above in bold.

As regards the 3rd point the Policy is neither dead nor has anything changed.. nor ever will.

If you were the PM of Pak, is this all you'd want India to do ?

 

[Icarus]

Ok Let us discuss the latest attempt (not only by India, but also by Pak)...... In UFA, there was an agreement made, where in the peace process was supposed to go forward in structured manner..... and Both PM's agreed up on the following.

1) Meeting of NSA's to discuss terrorism
2) Meeting of DGMO's to Loc firing......

Now we all know the uproar happened once NS returned from UFA..... The NSA meeting was cancelled because "Kashmir" was not discussed....... Conveniently gone back from the agreement, and wanted to discuss Kashmir, God knows what out come Pakistan was expecting from the discussion of NSA???? Our take was , it was a cover up by NS who forgot to mention kashmir in UFA...... Now If you were so serious on peace process, you could have had this meeting, and had a suggestion to put forward plan for discussion on "Kashmir" after the meeting..... Right???

Tell me Why would India try something extra ordinary to bring peace with Pakistan???? Whom will they talk to??? NS???? He has no control on foreign policy in last one year and he has to get the permission from rawalpindi????

I guess the best chances of dialogues would be if you throw NS away and put martial law and make your COAS as president.... By doing that India can talk to some one who really has the power to discuss issues.... We were very close to resolving our issues when the "Commando" was in power in Islamabad.....

Indians seem to overwhelm PA's influence in Pakistan's policy. How am I supposed to respond to an argument that is based on a fictitious assumption that NS is a mere puppet and that every thing he has done so far and also the criticism her has received for it has been orchestrated by the Army?

 

[Rain]

Well played MNS.
Pakistan showed a will for peaceful settlement of issues.
But india's responce shows they world its india who is willing for a confrontation.

Lets make india's responce as core issue in our FP. And tell the world that its india who is wanting confrontation. Furthermore we should change defensive nature of national security into an agressive one. Focus on setting up a defence system which focuses on allout agression to safegaurd pak.

Time to prepare for ultimate war.

 

[nair]

Indians seem to overwhelm PA's influence in Pakistan's policy. How am I supposed to respond to an argument that is based on a fictitious assumption that NS is a mere puppet and that every thing he has done so far and also the criticism her has received for it has been orchestrated by the Army?

Well Ignoring the last part (of army orchestrating criticism) It is not what Indians believe, it is what is believed in Pakistan by its own analysts and citizens...... Who am i to judge??? and the place we lives, Army has no role in foreign policy and they work under GoI....... similarly Intelligence agencies work and report to GoI directly...... and we fail to understand this equation.....

If you believe that army has no role in formulating foreign policy or other policies that matters , tell me one simple thing, There was a call taken by GoP to remove ISI from army's control and put them under direct control of GoP..... How long did it take to reverse it???? Why was it reversed????

Do you believe (personally) that the current political leadership (also the previous) one has the capability, capacity, and support to discuss and take decision with resepct to relationship with India????

 

[Icarus]

I am sure India has noted that the four point formula of NS has no mention of plebiscite.

Thank You! Now here's where my line of argument started from. I said that any opportunistic government that really wanted to close this chapter and recognized it as a burden of our colonial history would have read this diplomatic signal and responded in kind. I don't suggest that India simply high five Nawaz and tell him we're bros now, but use this as a springboard to at least initiate dialogue. However, our friends here can find a 101 reasons why that's a stupid idea and thus we are stuck making no efforts out of fear of failing. Its like being on a dark highway and not moving forward out of fear of being robbed despite the fact that there's an ample chance that you will be robbed just standing there whereas just beyond the corner, there may be a brighter road.

Do you believe he has the power and courage to take a call on policies wrt to India?????

He certainly seems to be making an effort, I'm going to give him a point for that. NS has taken his FP seriously this time and he's showing greater maturity than his past tenures. Russia, Belarus, the CARs, he's reaching out to countries that Pakistan has had next to no contact with, he's made massive progress with Turkey and China. He's rebuked the GCC, he's pulling all stops and I don't know what more you would like to see him do to be assured that he really does have the power to make FP.

Is this all ?

You have a military background and know how things work, you cant be serious on points highlighted above in bold.

As regards the 3rd point the Policy is neither dead nor has anything changed.. nor ever will.

If you were the PM of Pak, is this all you'd want India to do ?

I'm merely highlighting that the points made by India are extremely general and in Pakistan's perspective, non-factual. To be realistic, there is no agenda proposed from India's side. "Acting against terrorists on Pakistani soil" is hardly a very clear framework for future interaction when Pakistan has been involved in the WOT for the last decade.

 

[ice_man]

if only india had talked to Pakistan as was agreed in UFA.

India turned down PRIVATE TALKS.

we made it a public message about Kashmir.

First time i have seen a great Foreign policy on part of Pakistan. Usually it seems that our foreign ministry is full of charsis who let great moments pass by and wave at them as they pass

 

[VCheng]

Thank You! Now here's where my line of argument started from. I said that any opportunistic government that really wanted to close this chapter and recognized it as a burden of our colonial history would have read this diplomatic signal and responded in kind. I don't suggest that India simply high five Nawaz and tell him we're bros now, but use this as a springboard to at least initiate dialogue. However, our friends here can find a 101 reasons why that's a stupid idea and thus we are stuck making no efforts out of fear of failing. Its like being on a dark highway and not moving forward out of fear of being robbed despite the fact that there's an ample chance that you will be robbed just standing there whereas just beyond the corner, there may be a brighter road.

Any dialogue has to be within the framework of the Simla Agreement, Sir.

 

[Icarus]

If you believe that army has no role in formulating foreign policy or other policies that matters , tell me one simple thing, There was a call taken by GoP to remove ISI from army's control and put them under direct control of GoP..... How long did it take to reverse it???? Why was it reversed????

That was a matter of national security and you have the premise all wrong, the ISI is not under the Army. It is under the Ministry of Defence and the proposal was to move it to the Ministry of Interior which is not possible and an utterly misplaced notion as the ISI is primarily intended for dealing with Pakistan's external threats and thus has no job being under the ministry of interior which deals solely with internal security.

Do you believe (personally) that the current political leadership (also the previous) one has the capability, capacity, and support to discuss and take decision with resepct to relationship with India????

Capability-Yes
Capacity-Yes
Popular Support-With regards to India, I always thought that it was an uphill struggle but the response in Pak after tomorrow's speech clearly indicates that there exists credible support for a compromise solution.

 

[third eye]

I'm merely highlighting that the points made by India are extremely general and in Pakistan's perspective, non-factual. To be realistic, there is no agenda proposed from India's side. "Acting against terrorists on Pakistani soil" is hardly a very clear framework for future interaction when Pakistan has been involved in the WOT for the last decade.

I am surprised you find it an unclear when India asks Pak to stop creating, nurturing, harbouring, encouraging & supporting terrorists.

No offence meant but most of the world also feels so.

The WOT is something Pak has brought upon itself & needs to thank Zia & Gul for it , seeking empathy on this account is unlikely.

 

[Icarus]

Any dialogue has to be within the framework of the Simla Agreement, Sir.

Well to start with, let there be dialogue. Details can of course be ironed out in respect to our mutual agreements.

 

[third eye]

Capability-Yes
Capacity-Yes
Popular Support-With regards to India, I always thought that it was an uphill struggle but the response in Pak after tomorrow's speech clearly indicates that there exists credible support for a compromise solution.

No elected Govt in Pak has shown the capability and / or capacity.

Any one who attempted to assert itself has been shown the door by the PA & ISI

This is the greatest predicament - does the PM have permission to do what he says ?

Example : Ufa

 

[Spectre]

Thank You! Now here's where my line of argument started from. I said that any opportunistic government that really wanted to close this chapter and recognized it as a burden of our colonial history would have read this diplomatic signal and responded in kind. I don't suggest that India simply high five Nawaz and tell him we're bros now, but use this as a springboard to at least initiate dialogue. However, our friends here can find a 101 reasons why that's a stupid idea and thus we are stuck making no efforts out of fear of failing. Its like being on a dark highway and not moving forward out of fear of being robbed despite the fact that there's an ample chance that you will be robbed just standing there whereas just beyond the corner, there may be a brighter road.

He certainly seems to be making an effort, I'm going to give him a point for that. NS has taken his FP seriously this time and he's showing greater maturity than his past tenures. Russia, Belarus, the CARs, he's reaching out to countries that Pakistan has had next to no contact with, he's made massive progress with Turkey and China. He's rebuked the GCC, he's pulling all stops and I don't know what more you would like to see him do to be assured that he really does have the power to make FP.

I'm merely highlighting that the points made by India are extremely general and in Pakistan's perspective, non-factual. To be realistic, there is no agenda proposed from India's side. "Acting against terrorists on Pakistani soil" is hardly a very clear framework for future interaction when Pakistan has been involved in the WOT for the last decade.

Truth of the matter is current inertia and status - quo will not change as it suits one side and hence any force applied to move things forward would be opposed. Estranged relationship with Pakistan pays dividends in domestic politics in India and any action supporting estrangement and disengagement is rationalized by the heavy hammer of historical context.

Only way to change the status - quo is to take unambiguous action like incarcerating Lakhvi and Saeed and deporting Dawood which can be construed as surrender to India's demands in Pakistan.

So you see it is unrealistic to except anything positive to happen unless a force majeure or hand of god event happens. I won't hold my breath though.