UNGA speech: Nawaz proposes 4-point peace initiative with India

[nair]

He certainly seems to be making an effort, I'm going to give him a point for that. NS has taken his FP seriously this time and he's showing greater maturity than his past tenures. Russia, Belarus, the CARs, he's reaching out to countries that Pakistan has had next to no contact with, he's made massive progress with Turkey and China. He's rebuked the GCC, he's pulling all stops and I don't know what more you would like to see him do to be assured that he really does have the power to make FP.

You have not understood my question i guess.... The point i made was only respect to "India"

 

[Icarus]

I am surprised you find it an unclear when India asks Pak to stop creating, nurturing, harbouring, encouraging & supporting terrorists.

No offence meant but most of the world also feels so.

The WOT is something Pak has brought upon itself & needs to thank Zia & Gul for it , seeking empathy on this account is unlikely.

The world and India has not spent the last decade involved in the WOT directly, I have and I still find these assertions to be full of hot air. As I have repeated multiple times before, until the 2003 ceasefire, we were sending guys over and so was India, it was very much a mutual affair. India cannot feign innocence in this matter, I was there and have personally dealt with Indian saboteurs.
That being said, post-2003 agreement when Musharraf banned the LeT, its core members joined up with what would later become known as the TTP and then I spent a good deal of time fighting them too. So if the world still thinks that we have camps hidden away somewhere that the world has been unable to locate despite all their sophisticated surveillance equipment, I can only ask them to please step out of the 90s.

 

[Bang Galore]

if only india had talked to Pakistan as was agreed in UFA.

India turned down PRIVATE TALKS.

we made it a public message about Kashmir.

First time i have seen a great Foreign policy on part of Pakistan. Usually it seems that our foreign ministry is full of charsis who let great moments pass by and wave at them as they pass

India turned down no talks on the Ufa format. It was Pakistan which sought to bring in an issue that was not under discussion. The Indian NSA has no remit to discuss the political question of Kashmir, that when it ever came to it, would be within the purview of the MEA. Your NSA might be many things rolled into one, ours is not.

 

[ito]

Thank You! Now here's where my line of argument started from. I said that any opportunistic government that really wanted to close this chapter and recognized it as a burden of our colonial history would have read this diplomatic signal and responded in kind. I don't suggest that India simply high five Nawaz and tell him we're bros now, but use this as a springboard to at least initiate dialogue. However, our friends here can find a 101 reasons why that's a stupid idea and thus we are stuck making no efforts out of fear of failing. Its like being on a dark highway and not moving forward out of fear of being robbed despite the fact that there's an ample chance that you will be robbed just standing there whereas just beyond the corner, there may be a brighter road.

I don't consider them to stupid, but given the state of affairs and lack of trust between India and Pakistan, except the first point, I don't see India agreeing for the next three points. Demilitarization in present circumstance is very hard to think.

As on NS proposing his formula, the place of proposal was wrong. A bilateral meet would have been a better place for his proposal and India would have taken it more seriously.

 

[nair]

No elected Govt in Pak has shown the capability and / or capacity.

Any one who attempted to assert itself has been shown the door by the PA & ISI

This is the greatest predicament - does the PM have permission to do what he says ?

Example : Ufa

For India Probably the most comfortable guy to work with would be "Nawas Sharif"..... But we all know the outcome of such meetings once he go back......

Actually for Pakistan, this is the best chance to resolve the issue.... You have a govt in India (how ever hardliner they are) who has large support with weak opposition and the same opposition which was trying their level best to resolve the differences a year back.......

 

[Bang Galore]

That being said, post-2003 agreement when Musharraf banned the LeT, its core members joined up with what would later become known as the TTP and then I spent a good deal of time fighting them too. So if the world still thinks that we have camps hidden away somewhere that the world has been unable to locate despite all their sophisticated surveillance equipment, I can only ask them to please step out of the 90s.

So Kasab & the others materialised from thin air?

 

[Spectre]

The world and India has not spent the last decade involved in the WOT directly, I have and I still find these assertions to be full of hot air. As I have repeated multiple times before, until the 2003 ceasefire, we were sending guys over and so was India, it was very much a mutual affair. India cannot feign innocence in this matter, I was there and have personally dealt with Indian saboteurs.
That being said, post-2003 agreement when Musharraf banned the LeT, its core members joined up with what would later become known as the TTP and then I spent a good deal of time fighting them too. So if the world still thinks that we have camps hidden away somewhere that the world has been unable to locate despite all their sophisticated surveillance equipment, I can only ask them to please step out of the 90s.

The above argument won't hold water - 26/11 changed things irrevocably - it was when the elite of India who were untouched by the tragedy of it all were bloodied.

 

[Icarus]

No elected Govt in Pak has shown the capability and / or capacity.

Any one who attempted to assert itself has been shown the door by the PA & ISI

This is the greatest predicament - does the PM have permission to do what he says ?

Example : Ufa

I already addressed this point in nair's post.

Truth of the matter is current inertia and status - quo will not change as it suits one side and hence any force applied to move things forward would be opposed. Estranged relationship with Pakistan pays dividends in domestic politics in India and any action supporting estrangement and disengagement is rationalized by the heavy hammer of historical context.

Only way to change the status - quo is to take unambiguous action like incarcerating Lakhvi and Saeed and deporting Dawood which can be construed as surrender to India's demands in Pakistan.

So you see it is unrealistic to except anything positive to happen unless a force majeure or hand of god event happens. I won't hold my breath though.

Now, Lakhvi and Saeed were incarcerated, tried, their assets frozen, their outfit banned. However, as I stated before, the representatives of the Pakistani High Commission and also FIA were denied access to Kasab who's testimony was key to landing the case. In such a case, we could only keep them in jail for so long, the case against them was weak and based solely on a recorded phone call, packets of Pakistani products, and a video admission that was not allowed to be verified.
I would like you to tell me if under the same circumstances and given the same evidence, if any court in India would have passed a different sentence.

You have not understood my question i guess.... The point i made was only respect to "India"

And I am merely trying to point out that he has shown enormous capacity in dealing with all quarters and made some very defining calls with regards to FP so yes, I do believe that he can also do so with India in question.

 

[nair]

The world and India has not spent the last decade involved in the WOT directly, I have and I still find these assertions to be full of hot air. As I have repeated multiple times before, until the 2003 ceasefire, we were sending guys over and so was India, it was very much a mutual affair. India cannot feign innocence in this matter, I was there and have personally dealt with Indian saboteurs.
That being said, post-2003 agreement when Musharraf banned the LeT, its core members joined up with what would later become known as the TTP and then I spent a good deal of time fighting them too. So if the world still thinks that we have camps hidden away somewhere that the world has been unable to locate despite all their sophisticated surveillance equipment, I can only ask them to please step out of the 90s.

Since others are already posted on 26/11, Let me ask you a different question ( I am glad that you have dealt with these scumbags called TTp and Let), We all know why Let was formed and what they were doing, If TTP was born out Let, Why your govt accuse Indians for funding TTP????

 

[Bang Galore]

Well to start with, let there be dialogue. Details can of course be ironed out in respect to our mutual agreements.

There was a dialogue process initiated. The first time, India agreed to FS talks after 3 years. Nawaz Sharif came under pressure with the marches & the container guys & decided to do some grandstanding & called in the Hurriyat when Kashmir was not even on the table - it was to be talks about talks.

Then second time he agreed to a process in Ufa & after coming under pressure when he got home about the non-mention of Kashmir, decided to up the ante.

Now he wants talks about Kashmir. Why should India oblige?

 

[Icarus]

So Kasab & the others materialised from thin air?

I'm saying there wasn't any state patronage behind them. We are cognisant of our security shortcomings and we are dealing with them but alleging complicity is what I was talking about.

The above argument won't hold water - 26/11 changed things irrevocably - it was when the elite of India who were untouched by the tragedy of it all were bloodied.

In that case, I guess we will have to wait another generation for this issue to ever have a chance of subsiding.

 

[third eye]

The world and India has not spent the last decade involved in the WOT directly, I have and I still find these assertions to be full of hot air. As I have repeated multiple times before, until the 2003 ceasefire, we were sending guys over and so was India, it was very much a mutual affair. India cannot feign innocence in this matter, I was there and have personally dealt with Indian saboteurs.

I would not be fair to expect any empathy on the WOT ., self created, poorly handled and half heartedly too with no independent media verification.

That being said, post-2003 agreement when Musharraf banned the LeT, its core members joined up with what would later become known as the TTP and then I spent a good deal of time fighting them too. So if the world still thinks that we have camps hidden away somewhere that the world has been unable to locate despite all their sophisticated surveillance equipment, I can only ask them to please step out of the 90s.

Two things happened after 2003 - Mumbai & Abbotabad.

Therefore your assertion carries no weight & reinforces the double timing PA has been upto.

 

[Spectre]

I would like you to tell me if under the same circumstances and given the same evidence, if any court in India would have passed a different sentence.

No, but since when do legal distinction matter among the people who are out for blood and trust me on this most Indians have lost faith and only want the metaphorical blood. During my brief stay on PDF i have come to observe that feeling is returned with interest.

 

[Bang Galore]

Now, Lakhvi and Saeed were incarcerated, tried, their assets frozen, their outfit banned..

Not Hafiz Saeed. Never arrested for this. That story was rubbished ages ago.

 

[Icarus]

Since others are already posted on 26/11, Let me ask you a different question ( I am glad that you have dealt with these scumbags called TTp and Let), We all know why Let was formed and what they were doing, If TTP was born out Let, Why your govt accuse Indians for funding TTP????

A component of the TTP, not the whole of the TTP. In itself, the TTP is a franchise, a brand name extended to various groups in different areas but they are quite independent in their approach and often hostile to each other. Take Hafiz Gul Bahadur for example who was a member of the TTP, had his own group in NWA and also honoured a peace accord with the PA for the longest time.

Not Hafiz Saeed. Never arrested for this. That story was rubbished ages ago.

Placed under house arrest, if you insist on being particular.