UAE Mirage to PAF and SH to IAF Extract

[Luftwaffe]

we've no idea if PAF has dropped the idea of getting those UAE Mirages but close door delays we might be surprised by India yet again It has happened in the past.

 

[monitor]

try to earn JAKAT from the rich which is farz for every muslim and spend 1/2 for defence r/d and capital procurment.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

try to earn JAKAT from the rich which is farz for every muslim and spend 1/2 for defence r/d and capital procurment.

oye Jakat...Zakat

Jakat aap jaisa logon ko deni chayhai!

To give money to PA is our duty not "ehsaan"
PA is not an alien thing..it is from people for people..so people will save it!
and last request to the Mod!
Don't delete the posts if possible.

Regards

 

[pak-yes]

Guys guys if anyone wanna discuss this donation thing make a separate thread.Pls don't post off topic replies as it makes the thread messy and then concerned people who wanna participate just turn away from thread.

 

[blain2]

Pakistani fan boys are forgetting that in 65 and 71 paf had superior aircraft and superior missiles than iaf---maybe lesser in numbers but quality has its own strength.

Common misconception. IAF's Hunters exceeded the performance of the Sabre. This has been attested to by many sources. PAF had a total of 12 F-104s and IAF had 10 Mig-21s operational by that time. AIM-9s were only available with a very small part of the Sabre fleet and accounted for only 9% of the kills (a total of 23 or so AIM-9s were fired).

My young men are thinking like every thing is hunky dory---there are no problems at all from anywhere---there is no hurry and no rush from any place---there are no enemies poised to destroy us---pakistan has no wars going on around it---pakistan's neighbours love pakistan---pakistan love sits neighbour---we are all in a lovey dovey and huggy relationship with our esteemed neighbour----pakistani 30 miles missile will kill the indian plane and indian 60 miles missile will not kill the pakistani plane. Indian SU 30's are a pos---indian mig21 bis are a pos---mirage m2k5 is same---so is mig 29----. PAF's F 16 A/B are the greatest--F 7 pg will take out everything---mirage 3/ 5 rose will slaughter all the indian planes---jf 17 zindabad---fc 20 paindabad---jeeway jeeway pakistan. Can somebody mail me that peyote---pease.

What a fools paradise---

Mastan, I think you are being a bit unfair here. I think you should qualify your statements. What a Pakistani student thinks is not the same as what the professionals at the AHQ think. What the AHQ thinks is much more in line with the current threats faced by Pakistan and within Pakistan's limited budget, they are going ahead with force modernization as best as they can. Secondly, while the Indian threat in the air is a very real one, the capacity to harm India on the Pakistan side is also that much greater. So for Pakistan, the PAF is not the only deterrence in place.

People overestimate their own capabilities and underestimate the other side all the time. This is not a Pakistan-specific phenomenon. It happens all around us.

 

[iioal malik]

Why not make a bank account for armed forces. People living abroad and in Pakistan can donate some money which will give a great boost to R&D and procuring new weapons. If authorities assure transparency many people will come out. Trust me!

When we went outside to ask money than why not make a bank account and ask our own people.
It can be done!

What's even the Point of doing it when about 80% of the country budget use by arm forces n there isn't any transparency for public point of view...but yes if there is a man who is worth of a turst then m sure people will donate man like imran khan who makeing a history for pakistan in the name of humanity he is getitng about 1billion rupes every year for his Shaukat Khanum Memorial Cancer Hospital & Research Centre simple reason is ppl turst him n his work

 

[SekrutYakhni]

What's even the Point of doing it when about 80% of the country budget use by arm forces n there isn't any transparency for public point of view...but yes if there is a man who is worth of a turst then m sure people will donate man like imran khan who makeing a history for pakistan in the name of humanity he is getitng about 1billion rupes every year for his Shaukat Khanum Memorial Cancer Hospital & Research Centre simple reason is ppl turst him n his work

I appreciate what Imran Khan did for us!

But we have to understand that our society can produce many Imran Khans and Tipu Sultans...
We have to promote other people also...
We cannot depend on one person...

It is shameful for us that we cannot produce such individuals and only have faith in one...
One needs courage to step up!

I hope we have many individuals who can be trusted

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan, I think you are being a bit unfair here. I think you should qualify your statements. What a Pakistani student thinks is not the same as what the professionals at the AHQ think. What the AHQ thinks is much more in line with the current threats faced by Pakistan and within Pakistan's limited budget, they are going ahead with force modernization as best as they can. Secondly, while the Indian threat in the air is a very real one, the capacity to harm India on the Pakistan side is also that much greater. So for Pakistan, the PAF is not the only deterrence in place.

People overestimate their own capabilities and underestimate the other side all the time. This is not a Pakistan-specific phenomenon. It happens all around us.

Hi,

On this board most of the posters are young men---in school, in colleges, in universities or just starting prof careers. That comment was meant for them.

As for the AHQ---their strategy has been p--- poor and it is for all the world to see---it is one fiasco after the other in the last 7 years---not one instance where a decision was PRE-EMPTED---everything was after the fact---if you gave so many chances to PHATOO ASHKELI he would have better results than the AHQ. They could have made pakistan come out of it, smelling like roses---they chose to get pakistan in the pig sty and pak will come out of it asmelling like sh-it.

They could have done it with style and substance and taken the high road---they chose to do otherwise---.

Air force is always the primary deterence---nuclear option is not---nuclear option is just for show---talk of any other deterence is up for grabs.

As for the last comment---you need to open up a little bit---I shoot from the hip---you need to clear it what you want to say. Thankyou.

 

[Aeri-Eye]

Pakistan defence budget is merely 20%. Get your facts right please.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Sir don't get angry it's you who are the fan boy of PAF i am the one which just telling their short comings.
And By the way you really mean that JF-17 is equal to or better than m2k9.If that's true then Sir the french and dozens of AF's around the world are a bunch of fools.They should scrap their Mirages and instead get Jf-17.Seriously Sir if you don't even know the difference between the two then i can not ever convince you.
And half of this forum is teaming with JF-17 facts so its useless to post them again.Some facts of Mirage are given on first pages and if you want more just google it.

I am not angry, just a bit irritated on the sort of argument you are presenting forward. The only conclusion i can make out of your argument is that the only reason why the Mirage 2000-9 is miles ahead of the JF17 is because it is a French Aircraft. This is the sort of argument the Indian fanboys put forward, i was expecting something better from a Pakistani brother. If i am the fanboy why dont you exactly point out the shortcomings of the JF17, instead of making huge audacious claims such as JF17 is hardly in the league of Mirage 2000-9.

I dont need to look at the specs of the Mirage 2000-9 because i already know them. The only reason why 600 Mirage 2000 have been built is because they have been on the international stage since 1980's, we still havent raised the first squadron for JF17 yet. Compare the initial JF17 with the initial Mirage 2000 that came out, there is a world of difference. Mirage 2000-9 is a great platform and it has matured over the time, but its not a God send to the world that no fighter can take it down. JF17 backed by an AWAC and other PAF's EW assets can hold its own easily against an onslaught from the Indian Mirages. JF17 has a radar that has a range of almost 100 km, Radar Warning Reciever system, HMS, Missile Approach Warning System, Dual Digital FBW, Electronic Warfare System, DSI(M2K does not has that) and most importantly it will be datalinked with an AWAC. With PAF moving towards net centric warfare, the JF17's will be even more lethal because they will be aware of the presence of other enemy aircrafts. Its an extremely maneuverable and agile plane which will make it an excellent dog fighter, it has held its own against our F16A and let me remind you that the F16A are the most agile planes out of the entire F16 series. The only shortcoming for the JF17 is its engine, it requires more thrust and PAF is well aware of this problem and they are working on fixing it.

So please give this fanboy talk to someone else because it certinely does not convinces me, the facts speak for themselves and you are more than welcome to prove them wrong. The only argument you have put forward is Mirage 2000-9 is a better aircraft because it is French made, nodoubt in its current state it is a better aircraft than JF17 but when you add our force multipliers and the future variants of the JF17 than the balance tilts in our favour. I just laugh when i hear people say JF17 is just an improved version of F7, if this plane did not meet our requirements PAF would have rejected it out right. I am yet to see someone prove that is not a 4th Generation Aircraft as people are claiming its a 3rd Generation Aircraft.

 

[Chanakyaa]

@eagle.
Your argument regarding the jf17 capability is valid, but u missed out 3 major factors-

1. Mirage is a matured, tested and most importantly experianced platform for iaf. Jf17 is new game for u by the u mature with it india will be phasing out mirages and jaguars by fgfa and mca.

2. Jf17 most probably wont face mirage, mki or hornets will be the challenge.

3. All the addons with the jf17 likd awacs, datalinks etc are present on both sides, so in a real war scenario how does jf17 cope againt better mki supported by worlds best awacs?

 

[pak-yes]

I am not angry, just a bit irritated on the sort of argument you are presenting forward. The only conclusion i can make out of your argument is that the only reason why the Mirage 2000-9 is miles ahead of the JF17 is because it is a French Aircraft. This is the sort of argument the Indian fanboys put forward, i was expecting something better from a Pakistani brother. If i am the fanboy why dont you exactly point out the shortcomings of the JF17, instead of making huge audacious claims such as JF17 is hardly in the league of Mirage 2000-9.

I dont need to look at the specs of the Mirage 2000-9 because i already know them. The only reason why 600 Mirage 2000 have been built is because they have been on the international stage since 1980's, we still havent raised the first squadron for JF17 yet. Compare the initial JF17 with the initial Mirage 2000 that came out, there is a world of difference. Mirage 2000-9 is a great platform and it has matured over the time, but its not a God send to the world that no fighter can take it down. JF17 backed by an AWAC and other PAF's EW assets can hold its own easily against an onslaught from the Indian Mirages. JF17 has a radar that has a range of almost 100 km, Radar Warning Reciever system, HMS, Missile Approach Warning System, Dual Digital FBW, Electronic Warfare System, DSI(M2K does not has that) and most importantly it will be datalinked with an AWAC. With PAF moving towards net centric warfare, the JF17's will be even more lethal because they will be aware of the presence of other enemy aircrafts. Its an extremely maneuverable and agile plane which will make it an excellent dog fighter, it has held its own against our F16A and let me remind you that the F16A are the most agile planes out of the entire F16 series. The only shortcoming for the JF17 is its engine, it requires more thrust and PAF is well aware of this problem and they are working on fixing it.

So please give this fanboy talk to someone else because it certinely does not convinces me, the facts speak for themselves and you are more than welcome to prove them wrong. The only argument you have put forward is Mirage 2000-9 is a better aircraft because it is French made, nodoubt in its current state it is a better aircraft than JF17 but when you add our force multipliers and the future variants of the JF17 than the balance tilts in our favour. I just laugh when i hear people say JF17 is just an improved version of F7, if this plane did not meet our requirements PAF would have rejected it out right. I am yet to see someone prove that is not a 4th Generation Aircraft as people are claiming its a 3rd Generation Aircraft.

Sir i can not ever convince you and you cannot convince me so this will only lead to bad.And i do not want this.

You can believe that JF-17 is better while i will continue to believe that m2k9 chance is such that if we miss it will only further prove the short sightedness of high command of PAF.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi.../Defence/2000/Mirage_2000-9_special_issue.pdf

 

[Super Falcon]

who said phalcon is worlds best awacs all the awacs are similar if even phalcon have edge over erieye than it is not that bigger difference

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Hi,

On this board most of the posters are young men---in school, in colleges, in universities or just starting prof careers. That comment was meant for them.

As for the AHQ---their strategy has been p--- poor and it is for all the world to see---it is one fiasco after the other in the last 7 years---not one instance where a decision was PRE-EMPTED---everything was after the fact---if you gave so many chances to PHATOO ASHKELI he would have better results than the AHQ. They could have made pakistan come out of it, smelling like roses---they chose to get pakistan in the pig sty and pak will come out of it asmelling like sh-it.

They could have done it with style and substance and taken the high road---they chose to do otherwise---.

Air force is always the primary deterence---nuclear option is not---nuclear option is just for show---talk of any other deterence is up for grabs.

As for the last comment---you need to open up a little bit---I shoot from the hip---you need to clear it what you want to say. Thankyou.

Sir,
With due respect, Air power has three prime characteristics that sets it apart "Height, Speed and Reach". With the introduction of WMDs, Tactical nuclear weapons and long range ballistic missiles air power can no longer be termed as the prime source of deterrence. The prime role of air power is to keep the skies clear so that the soldier on ground can make his move. The secondary job of air power is to soften the ground targets for that soldier. In every case it is the man on ground who decides the fate of war.

The reason is Air power is fragile in nature, it lacks the quality of permanently effecting the battle field and it has a limitation of payloads.

As far as AHQ goes, well i am in the air force, i proudly serve it and i follow the leadership with no doubts in my mind. its not that i dont have doubts or that i dont use my mind...its just that all my doubts and questions are answered when i see men devising new tactics and methods, with more risks but better results, all because of lack of technology and number. The best part is no body is willing to give up. It isnt easy to keep up with an enemy that is superior in quality and quantity, but then there are ways to raise the cost of victory for your enemy to a point where he he holds back.

Every day i read posts filled with hatred and words like Traitors for PAF. PAF is not a joke that any one can crack from far across the sea. If some one feels that the pond is dirty and is worried about it, he should jump in and try find the dirt, Any one can sit out side and talk as much as they want right !

PAF has kept its state to the best, under serious limitations. JF-17 may not be the best aircraft among the lot but atleast it is a ray of hopeful light. No one made a perfect aircraft for the first time.

Experience counts alot, its a universal truth. But the question is experience in what ? Can a experienced F1 driver drive better then a truck driver on the roads of Kashmir? There are several misunderstandings and blames floating in Pakistan against PAF. most of them are floated by the disgruntal nothing worth to do lot. Our job should be to find the truth, rather then inflating them out of proportion to an extent that it gets offensive.

One can float any idea under the blanket of experience but one must make sure that the blanket is of the same brand.