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U.S. Military Taught Officers ‘Hiroshima’ Tactics for ‘Total War’ on Islam

depends on the value of lives..
The deterrence is just that..
The Israelis fight for each life they call their own..
On the other hand.. Pakistanis hold little value for life when it comes to religion...whats losing 50 million when such a catastrophe has occurred.

If you touch Israel their philosophy tells them to flatten any aggressor country and its allies. I assume their nukes are more advanced then Pakistan's. And they most likely have ICBM capability, judging from their SLV.

Oh and Israel borders Jordan, Egypt, etc. you will kill more Muslims than Jews.

There is no way you will get away with it. They will lose 7 million, but you will lose much more. Karachi alone has 13 million residents.

Furthermore humans are biologically programmed to survive and pass on their genes. I seriously doubt Pakistan will take on the role of saving the Arab's face and eliminate itself in the process. Especially not the educated middle and upper class.

Religion can make one do crazy things, but mass suicide is something new.

I dread to think of the effect on the planet of releasing 100 nukes. Would it be livable??

Buddy remember the dinosaurs? Yeah something catastrophic happened, but look at the planet teeming with life.

Life is adaptive and resilient.
 
It is because the West has not chosen to employ the "Mongol tactics" so far.

This thread is precisely about the scenario when the current strategy of LIC doesn't work.

We all better hope (for your own sake) that it doesn't come to that.

This is all hog wash that the west hasnt employed full force , its a fact that more bombs have been dropped in Iraq and Afghanistan than the amout that was dropped during World War II.

After open declaration of War on Islam , any attack on Makkah and Madina would cause an immediate end to the relationship between West and rest of the Muslim world which includes the oil producing gulf states ( whether their leaders like it not , they will have no choice ).

West's main advantage over Muslim countries is industralization , mechanisation and air power .. all of these require fossil fuels, vast majority of which comes from Muslism lands. Wihtout a free running supply of oil the attack against Islam cannot last very long.

In terms if strenght of faith , wihtout a doubt , Muslism have the advantage.

Would pakistan risk getting nuked and destroyed in return? Pakistan's nukes can act as a deterrent, as it is doing now. But in all probabilities in case they DO decide to nuke Mecca/Medina, unfortunately it cannot help much.

If our Holy sites are attacked and war is declared on our religon , then we have the ability to strike at the heart of the enemy.

When Pakistan was getting ready to do the nuclear test , Israelis were gettiing a lot of pain and they were intending to attack Pakistan's nuclear sites via Inida, PAF planned counter attack which was essentially a one way mission to hit back at the enemy with no turning back of the pilots.

Just in case you dont know we do have air launched nuclear strike capability.
 
depends on the value of lives..
The deterrence is just that..
The Israelis fight for each life they call their own..
On the other hand.. Pakistanis hold little value for life when it comes to religion...whats losing 50 million when such a catastrophe has occurred.

I dread to think of the effect on the planet of releasing 100 nukes. Would it be livable??

Well, in reality, the effect of nukes is highly overrated.. According to official data, pakistan/india's nukes are no more than 50 kT.

Let us imagine a hypothetical scenario

To destroy Israeli cities completely you would need many dozens (at least 50) of nuclear weapons of 50 kT many of which would probably be shot down by ABM systems. Calculate the estimated efffects of nuke here : Federation of American Scientists :: Nuclear Weapon Effects Calculator

Or the nukemap: NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein

Then what? India would be easily able to take over pakistan and pakistan would probably be nuked by US navy in Persian gulf. Pakistan would become Indian territory. Would pakistan want that?

I think you should look at US nuclear doctrine: If any country other than major powers even threatens to use nuclear weapons, it would be legitimate for US to nuke that country. In case of pakistan, if pakistan prepares to nuke Israel after Israel nuked Mecca/Medina, most probably US would go for a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Pakistan (according to its nuclear doctrine). There is no way pakistan can survive that unfortunately.

If our Holy sites are attacks and war is declared on our religon , then we have the ability to strike at the heart of the enemy.

When Pakistan was getting ready to do the nuclear test , Israelis were gettiing a lot of pain and they were intending to attack Pakistan's nuclear sites via Inida, PAF planned counter attack which was essentially a one way mission to hit back at the enemy with no turning back of the pilots.

Just in case you dont know we do have air launched nuclear strike capability.

Unfortunately you do not. Look at my previous post. All muslim countries are powerless and at the mercy of the aggressors if US/Israel does decide to nuke Mecca/Medina
 
Well, in reality, the effect of nukes is highly overrated.. According to official data, pakistan/india's nukes are no more than 50 kT.

Let us imagine a hypothetical scenario

To destroy Israeli cities completely you would need many dozens (at least 50) of nuclear weapons of 50 kT many of which would probably be shot down by ABM systems. Calculate the estimated efffects of nuke here : Federation of American Scientists :: Nuclear Weapon Effects Calculator

Or the nukemap: NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein

Then what? India would be easily able to take over pakistan and pakistan would probably be nuked by US navy in Persian gulf. Pakistan would become Indian territory. Would pakistan want that?

I think you should look at US nuclear doctrine: If any country other than major powers even threatens to use nuclear weapons, it would be legitimate for US to nuke that country. In case of pakistan, if pakistan prepares to nuke Israel after Israel nuked Mecca/Medina, most probably US would go for a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Pakistan (according to its nuclear doctrine). There is no way pakistan can survive that unfortunately.



Unfortunately you do not. Look at my previous post. All muslim countries are powerless and at the mercy of the aggressors if US/Israel does decide to nuke Mecca/Medina

The enemy can pull the trigger and find out who will be at whose mercy afterwards
 
West's main advantage over Muslim countries is industralization , mechanisation and air power .. all of these require fossil fuels, vast majority of which comes from Muslism lands. Wihtout a free running supply of oil the attack against Islam cannot last very long.

That is a big misconception. Very big one at that. Do you have any idea of the amount of fossil fuel reserves of Russia and USA? It is far more than what Saudi Arabia or the middle east has. Russia is a major energy exporter. USA can be too if it wishes however, it prefers to meddle in ME.
 
Well, in reality, the effect of nukes is highly overrated.. According to official data, pakistan/india's nukes are no more than 50 kT.

Let us imagine a hypothetical scenario

To destroy Israeli cities completely you would need many dozens (at least 50) of nuclear weapons of 50 kT many of which would probably be shot down by ABM systems. Calculate the estimated efffects of nuke here : Federation of American Scientists :: Nuclear Weapon Effects Calculator

Or the nukemap: NUKEMAP by Alex Wellerstein

Then what? India would be easily able to take over pakistan and pakistan would probably be nuked by US navy in Persian gulf. Pakistan would become Indian territory. Would pakistan want that?

Yet other scientists disagree:

Updated: Feb. 25, 2011; 11:40 p.m. EST

WASHINGTON — Even a small nuclear exchange could ignite mega-firestorms and wreck the planet’s atmosphere.

New climatological simulations show 100 Hiroshima-sized nuclear bombs — relatively small warheads, compared to the arsenals military superpowers stow today — detonated by neighboring countries would destroy more than a quarter of the Earth’s ozone layer in about two years.

Regions closer to the poles would see even more precipitous drops in the protective gas, which absorbs harmful ultraviolet radiation from the sun. New York and Sydney, for example, would see declines rivaling the perpetual hole in the ozone layer above Antarctica. And it may take more than six years for the ozone layer to reach half of its former levels.

Researchers described the results during a panel Feb. 18 at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, calling it “a real bummer” that such a localized nuclear war could bring the modern world to its knees.

“This is tremendously dangerous,” said environmental scientist Alan Robock of Rutgers University, one of the climate scientists presenting at the meeting. “The climate change would be unprecedented in human history, and you can imagine the world … would just shut down.”

To defuse the complexity involved in a nuclear climate catastrophe, Wired.com sat down with Michael Mills, an atmospheric chemist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, who led some of the latest simulation efforts.
‘It’s pretty clear this would lead to a global nuclear famine.’

Wired.com: In your simulation, a war between India and Pakistan breaks out. Each country launches 50 nukes at their opponent’s cities. What happens after the first bomb goes off?

Michael Mills: The initial explosions ignite fires in the cities, and those fires would build up for hours. What you eventually get is a firestorm, something on the level we saw in World War II in cities like Dresden, in Tokyo, Hiroshima and so on.

Today we have larger cities than we did then — mega cities. And using 100 weapons on these different mega cities, like those in India and Pakistan, would cause these firestorms to build on themselves. They would create their own weather and start sucking air through bottom. People and objects would be sucked into buildings from the winds, basically burning everything in the city. It’ll burn concrete, the temperatures get so hot. It converts mega cities into black carbon smoke.

Atmospheric scientist Michael Mills of NCAR. Dave Mosher/Wired.com

Wired.com: I see — the firestorms push up the air, and ash, into the atmosphere?

Mills: Yeah. You sometimes see these firestorms in large forest fires in Canada, in Siberia. In those cases, you see a lot of this black carbon getting into the stratosphere, but not on the level we’re talking about in a nuclear exchange.

The primary cause of ozone loss is the heating of the stratosphere by that smoke. Temperatures initially increase by more than 100 degrees Celsius, and remain more than 30 degrees higher than normal for more than 3 years. The higher temperatures increase the rates of two reaction cycles that deplete ozone.

Wired.com: And the ozone layer is in the stratosphere, correct?

Mills: OK, so we live in the troposphere, which is about 8 kilometers [5 miles] thick at the poles, and 16 km [10 miles] at the equator.

At the top of the troposphere, you start to encounter the stratosphere. It’s defined by the presence of the ozone layer, with the densest ozone at the lowest part, then it tails off at the stratopause, where the stratosphere ends about 50 km [30 miles] up.

We have a lot of weather in the troposphere. That’s because energy is being absorbed at the Earth’s surface, so it’s warmest at the surface. As you go up in the atmosphere it gets colder. Well, that all turns around as you get to the ozone layer. It starts getting hotter because ozone is absorbing ultraviolet radiation, until you run out of ozone and it starts getting colder again. Then you’re at the mesosphere

How One Nuclear Skirmish Could Wreck the Planet | Wired Science | Wired.com

Then what? India would be easily able to take over pakistan and pakistan would probably be nuked by US navy in Persian gulf. Pakistan would become Indian territory. Would pakistan want that?

Well I would assume that Pakistan has at least 200 nukes now I mean they were reported to have 100 odd years ago. Pakistan could launch nukes at Israel and would for the reason you mention want to knock some Indian capability. India would be worried about China and may launch at China. It just is not funny. Anyone up for risking all? I doubt it. In history there have always been empires which have appeared omnipotent until they are exposed not to be so
 
Yet other scientists disagree:

Updated: Feb. 25, 2011; 11:40 p.m. EST

WASHINGTON — Even a small nuclear exchange could ignite mega-firestorms and wreck the planet’s atmosphere.

New climatological simulations show 100 Hiroshima-sized nuclear bombs — relatively small warheads, compared to the arsenals military superpowers stow today — detonated by neighboring countries would destroy more than a quarter of the Earth’s ozone layer in about two years.

Regions closer to the poles would see even more precipitous drops in the protective gas, which absorbs harmful ultraviolet radiation from the sun. New York and Sydney, for example, would see declines rivaling the perpetual hole in the ozone layer above Antarctica. And it may take more than six years for the ozone layer to reach half of its former levels.

Researchers described the results during a panel Feb. 18 at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, calling it “a real bummer” that such a localized nuclear war could bring the modern world to its knees.

“This is tremendously dangerous,” said environmental scientist Alan Robock of Rutgers University, one of the climate scientists presenting at the meeting. “The climate change would be unprecedented in human history, and you can imagine the world … would just shut down.”

To defuse the complexity involved in a nuclear climate catastrophe, Wired.com sat down with Michael Mills, an atmospheric chemist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, who led some of the latest simulation efforts.
‘It’s pretty clear this would lead to a global nuclear famine.’

Wired.com: In your simulation, a war between India and Pakistan breaks out. Each country launches 50 nukes at their opponent’s cities. What happens after the first bomb goes off?

Michael Mills: The initial explosions ignite fires in the cities, and those fires would build up for hours. What you eventually get is a firestorm, something on the level we saw in World War II in cities like Dresden, in Tokyo, Hiroshima and so on.

Today we have larger cities than we did then — mega cities. And using 100 weapons on these different mega cities, like those in India and Pakistan, would cause these firestorms to build on themselves. They would create their own weather and start sucking air through bottom. People and objects would be sucked into buildings from the winds, basically burning everything in the city. It’ll burn concrete, the temperatures get so hot. It converts mega cities into black carbon smoke.

Atmospheric scientist Michael Mills of NCAR. Dave Mosher/Wired.com

Wired.com: I see — the firestorms push up the air, and ash, into the atmosphere?

Mills: Yeah. You sometimes see these firestorms in large forest fires in Canada, in Siberia. In those cases, you see a lot of this black carbon getting into the stratosphere, but not on the level we’re talking about in a nuclear exchange.

The primary cause of ozone loss is the heating of the stratosphere by that smoke. Temperatures initially increase by more than 100 degrees Celsius, and remain more than 30 degrees higher than normal for more than 3 years. The higher temperatures increase the rates of two reaction cycles that deplete ozone.

Wired.com: And the ozone layer is in the stratosphere, correct?

Mills: OK, so we live in the troposphere, which is about 8 kilometers [5 miles] thick at the poles, and 16 km [10 miles] at the equator.

At the top of the troposphere, you start to encounter the stratosphere. It’s defined by the presence of the ozone layer, with the densest ozone at the lowest part, then it tails off at the stratopause, where the stratosphere ends about 50 km [30 miles] up.

We have a lot of weather in the troposphere. That’s because energy is being absorbed at the Earth’s surface, so it’s warmest at the surface. As you go up in the atmosphere it gets colder. Well, that all turns around as you get to the ozone layer. It starts getting hotter because ozone is absorbing ultraviolet radiation, until you run out of ozone and it starts getting colder again. Then you’re at the mesosphere

How One Nuclear Skirmish Could Wreck the Planet | Wired Science | Wired.com



Well I would assume that Pakistan has at least 200 nukes now I mean they were reported to have 100 odd years ago. Pakistan could launch nukes at Israel and would for the reason you mention want to knock some Indian capability. India would be worried about China and may launch at China. It just is not funny. Anyone up for risking all? I doubt it. In history there have always been empires which have appeared omnipotent until they are exposed not to be so

I think that is nuclear winter. Yes, ozone layer would deplet and it would lead to increased cancer cases. But I personaly think such effects are overestimated because already more than 1500 nuke tests of far higher yield has taken place...

But more concern is of the nuclear plants ie. Chernobyl was more dangerous than all nuclear tests combined.
 
I think that is nuclear winter. Yes, ozone layer would deplet and it would lead to increased cancer cases. But I personaly think such effects are overestimated because already more than 1500 nuke tests of far higher yield has taken place...

But more concern is of the nuclear plants ie. Chernobyl was more dangerous than all nuclear tests combined.

Those who will perish in nuclear exchange will probably be the lucky ones as those who will be left will suffer a lot more.

Russian government hasnt been very forth coming about the Chernobyl accident and its aftermath , the affects of nuclear fallout are not over estimated rather under estiamted.

[Graphic content]
CHERNOBYL: Death, Poison, Deformity « Reed Perry
 
Those who will perish in nuclear exchange will probably be the lucky ones as those who will be left will suffer a lot more.

Russian government hasnt been very forth coming about the Chernobyl accident and its aftermath , the affects of nuclear fallout are not over estimated rather under estiamted.

[Graphic content]
CHERNOBYL: Death, Poison, Deformity « Reed Perry

much depends on the type of nuclear/fissile material used. Otherwise, yes, it is overestimated/overrated.
 
That is a big misconception. Very big one at that. Do you have any idea of the amount of fossil fuel reserves of Russia and USA? It is far more than what Saudi Arabia or the middle east has. Russia is a major energy exporter. USA can be too if it wishes however, it prefers to meddle in ME.

It takes time to develop an oil filed , while there may be large reserves they are not being actively used for extracting oil , no corporation will put its money on a field that they cannot extract oil from so these reserves cannot be just brought online over night. Sudden shortage oil will be disastrous for the western war machine.
 
much depends on the type of nuclear/fissile material used. Otherwise, yes, it is overestimated/overrated.

If comrade S-19 says so then effects of nuclear radiation must be over rated and overestimated that’s why in the aftermath of Chernobyl, Russian soldiers were sent in to cover the reactor core with nothing more than gas masks ( afterwards almost all of them got some sickness )

Chernobyl, in many ways, hastened the fall of the Soviet Union as there was a lot cover up in the aftermath of the disaster but eventually people realised that the acts of their government are putting them in misery.

Should the west start a war with Islam, western population will suffer in the aftermath which will mean quick fall of the war mongering government in the west.
 
It takes time to develop an oil filed , while there may be large reserves they are not being actively used for extracting oil , no corporation will put its money on a field that they cannot extract oil from so these reserves cannot be just brought online over night. Sudden shortage oil will be disastrous for the western war machine.

US produces about 10 billion barrels/day, position just after Russia and KSA. However, consumes about 19 billion barrels/day.

Even if ALL of its oil imports are stopped, which is very unlikely even if Hormuz is blocked, 10 billion/day is enough for its military.

If comarade S-19 says so then effects of nuclear radiation must be over rated and overestimated that’s why in the aftermath of chernobyl, russian soldiers were sent in to cover the reactor core with nothing more than gas masks ( afterwards almost all of them got some sickness )

As I said it depends on the fissile material being used. Chernobyls main problem was the Radon gas which leaked.

It takes time to develop an oil filed , while there may be large reserves they are not being actively used for extracting oil , no corporation will put its money on a field that they cannot extract oil from so these reserves cannot be just brought online over night. Sudden shortage oil will be disastrous for the western war machine.

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Only about 20% of oil imports would be blocked if Hormuz is blocked.
 
Perhaps some of you might recall Muse's posts on the subject of the 'mindset of US Military Officers' he interacted with in Afghanistan and elsewhere - he pointed out that a significant majority of them harbored the very mindset that this course, IMO, was attempting to ingrain into the US Military - one of irrational hate and prejudice towards 'Muslims' in an attempt to dehumanize them.

Muse mentioned his interactions and observations of the US Military mindset to make the point that people advocating for any kind of 'strategic or substantive military/intelligence relationship' between the US and Pakistan were wrong, since the mindset on the US side was geared towards viewing Pakistan as the enemy regardless of how much cooperation Pakistan provided in the 'War on Terror'.
 
Should the west start a war with Islam, western population will suffer in the aftermath which will mean quick fall of the war mongering government in the west.

That is what we are trying to figure out. How can Egyptian's, Bangladeshi's, Somalians, Jordanians, Pakistani's, Afghan's do that without ICBM or blue water navy?

I am having a hard time understanding this assertion.
 

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