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U.S. bristles at stiff Pakistani NATO fees

as someone who loves business negotiations and the excitement that comes with it (i hope i dont come across as someone claiming to be inking crore dollar deals for breakfast, because that's far from the truth) -- I completelyy agree with you

but it's simple economics, doesnt require a bachelors or an MBA:


USA: has other options, but insists on the Pakistani route given that it's cheaper to offload from a port and then truck the goods right across the border


Pakistan: having been royally and consistently misled and screwed over by people with no vision, no pride -- realizes that while in the past it was "Fashionable" to give concession after concession after concession (one after the other) -- that now it's a matter of common sense (in an otherwise nonsensical situation). Those trucks pollute (like any moving vehicle with an internal combustion engine); some leave marks or debris on the road, or potholes....they add to the traffic; and obviously - they are using a public good & service (the road itself)


******, banter, flap arms, turn red and bristle.......but just know this, it's very simple and basic.




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Its is much simpler than that calculate how much it cost them through northern routes and stick firm on two thirds that rate. Zardari is not biz man he is crook. there is a big difference
 
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The fact that they haven't speaks to their confidence that they hold enough of the cards to pressure Pakistan into eventually giving in; were this to not take place, they can just as easily use that to their advantage. By constantly refusing to let supplies through, Pakistan is playing into the perception of a nation that is unwilling to help, and at worst, standing in the way of the fight against extremism and terrorism. While you and me agree that is largely unfair and incredibly biased; as the foremost military and media power, the American opinion and spin carries far more weight. By using Pakistan's position to incriminate itself, the US is doing far more damage to the Pakistani position from a political as well as an economic standpoint....................

The chest-thumping flag wavers won't even know what hit them when the trap of their own making is finally sprung when most opportune for those who control the whole shebang. It won't be the first time in human history that fools have rushed in where angels rightly feared to tread.
 
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So rather than trying pursue policies that would enhance its strategic importance, Pakistan realizes that it has lost all such claims and is merely trying to make as much money till 2014. Okay, after those few billions run out, what then?

Do you realize how ironic it is for you to say that USA should have been offering something to enhance Pakistan's strategic importance in the first place. Isn't it up to PAKISTAN to create its own strategic significance by proper policies of internal development and external engagement?
I am merely pointing out that the the argument made by some, including yourself, that Pakistan 'lost out on strategic significance' because of the NATO transit blockade, is wrong, given that nothing was on offer prior to the blockade that would have provided Pakistan 'strategic significance'.

I don't have any issue with the argument that Pakistan should fix its domestic issues and strengthen governance and its economy (I have argued that several times myself), but a NATO supply blockade or no supply blockade is not a determining factor in Pakistan's political leadership implementing those changes. If anything, the lack of foreign aid due to the supply blockade might in fact jar the situation enough for domestic changes that would otherwise not occur due to the 'life support' from foreign aid.
 
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I am merely pointing out that the the argument made by some, including yourself, that Pakistan 'lost out on strategic significance' because of the NATO transit blockade, is wrong, given that nothing was on offer prior to the blockade that would have provided Pakistan 'strategic significance'.

The reason I say Pakistan has lost out on strategic significance due to the blockade is related to post-2014 Afghanistan. Pakistan will now find it much more difficult to have as influential a voice at the table as it would have otherwise had as an ally, and once the extra funds it may succeed in wrangling as transit fees as swallowed up by pre-existing liabilities, it will cost it dearly elsewhere.

I don't have any issue with the argument that Pakistan should fix its domestic issues and strengthen governance and its economy (I have argued that several times myself), but a NATO supply blockade or no supply blockade is not a determining factor in Pakistan's political leadership implementing those changes. If anything, the lack of foreign aid due to the supply blockade might in fact jar the situation enough for domestic changes that would otherwise not occur due to the 'life support' from foreign aid.

The part is bold is nothing more than conjecture born of wishes, prayers and hopes, but nothing that would be substantial enough to pin any definite plans upon. What if the jarring produces a collapse of the whole teetering edifice? Isn't that a more likely outcome?
 
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Dangerous waters ahead:

from: Pakistani official: Position to soften on NATO supply line - CSMonitor.com

Islamabad, Pakistan

As President Asif Ali Zardari concludes his trip to Chicago for the NATO summit, observers in Pakistan say that Pakistan has been put in a more awkward position, and he will now have to convince his own countrymen to soften their demands on the United States – a difficult task.

Government officials are already hinting at the change of attitude that Pakistan will pursue once the president returns.

“We have to show flexibility in our stance, because it is in Pakistan’s mutual interest,” says Chaudry Fawad, who is the special assistant to Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gillani.

Mr. Fawad says it is time for Pakistan to move on, and reciprocate the goodwill gesture of NATO inviting Pakistan to the summit. He says this was a sign that the international community realizes Pakistan’s importance.

“We want to tell the world that we are not a hurdle in Afghanistan’s pull out of NATO forces. And I believe the bigger disputes between both countries have been resolved,” he added.

Despite Fawad’s claims, the fact that Mr. Zardari was unable to secure a formal one-on-one meeting with President Obama at the summit ( there were a couple quick face to face moments) sends a clear message to the country’s leadership about how unhappy the US is with Pakistan.

The Pakistan-US relationship, already reeling from the arrest in January of a C.I.A. officer, Raymond Davis, and the killing of Osama bin Laden in May took a nosedive when NATO forces attacked Pakistani military check-posts on the Afghan border, last year in November, accidentally killing 24 Pakistani soldiers.

Following this, the country’s policymakers decided to block the NATO supply routes, which passed through Pakistan into Afghanistan and Pakistan’s parliament was tasked to come up with recommendations for renewing the relationship with the Americans.

The parliament put out a 14-point resolution last month. It mainly asked for re-engagement of terms and conditions regarding the NATO supply routes, an apology from the US for the attack in November, and an end to drone strikes. But Pakistan has been unsuccessful in getting these demands met, and political observers feel the failure to secure any deal at the NATO summit is an indicator that Pakistan has lost out on all accounts.

“I think Pakistani leadership misread the situation. Mr. Zardari thought that he, by going himself to the NATO summit, would be able to break the ice, without giving anything substantive in return, but he miscalculated it,” says Fahd Husein, a senior journalist, who hosts a political prime time talk show.

According to Mr. Husein, Pakistan will need to back down from their earlier demands and then Zardari will have to implement this unpopular decision when he comes back.

“We will not get the money that we are looking for, the drones will not stop, and most likely, we will not get an apology from Obama,” he says.

But some analysts say that the attendance of Pakistan at the Chicago summit wasn’t a total loss and should be interpreted in context.

“The military and the political leadership of the country want to get back on track with the US, but the military will not take blame for this unpopular decision, and the political leadership in Pakistan has an election year to face,” says Najam Sethi, a political analyst and editor of a weekly newspaper in Pakistan.

Mr. Sethi feels that Pakistan has delayed the normalization of ties, and it should act fast now, otherwise it may lose the aid it gets from the United States.

“The transition from ‘strategic ally’ to ‘frenemy’ has been swifter than the Pakistani generals had bargained for. The civilians didn't help by distorting the military's calibrated plan because they took far too long to start re-engagement, thereby pushing Washington to take a harder line,” he says. “And now a compromise will have to be made.”

Still, analysts say with Pakistan in this awkward position, they foresee darker days ahead for the president, as he will have to deal with the political opposition in the country.

“I think it’s a lose-lose situation for Mr. Zardari. He comes back having cut no ice with the Americans or the NATO, and having expended a lot of political capital,” Husein says.

“I think the only thing the ruling regime can do now is to close the deal real quickly, by knowing what the realistic options are, and then go ahead and take them,” he says.

Meanwhile, in other news:

It appears that the closure of supply routes is not likely to affect stated US positions much at all:

from: Drone strike kills three in North Waziristan - geo.tv

Drone strike kills three in North Waziristan

MIRANSHAH: Drone strike killed at least three people and injured several others in North Waziristan here, Geo News reported.

The unmanned aircraft fired two missiles on a house in Miranshah as a result three people lost their lives while several others sustained injuries.

It was the first drone strike after Chicago conference.
 
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The reason I say Pakistan has lost out on strategic significance due to the blockade is related to post-2014 Afghanistan. Pakistan will now find it much more difficult to have as influential a voice at the table as it would have otherwise had as an ally, and once the extra funds it may succeed in wrangling as transit fees as swallowed up by pre-existing liabilities, it will cost it dearly elsewhere.

And who exactly is sitting on the table? Are the Taliban sitting on the table?

Its laughable to talk about a post 2014 solution when the main aggrieved party is not even sitting on the table. The absolute failure of NATO to inflict a military defeat against the Taliban is evidence enough that the Taliban will be the main party in Afghanistan after NATO brigades withdraw. Pakistan would be better off setting up a peace deal with the Taliban than worrying too much about NATO.
 
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And who exactly is sitting on the table? Are the Taliban sitting on the table?

Its laughable to talk about a post 2014 solution when the main aggrieved party is not even sitting on the table. The absolute failure of NATO to inflict a military defeat against the Taliban is evidence enough that the Taliban will be the main party in Afghanistan after NATO brigades withdraw. Pakistan would be better off setting up a peace deal with the Taliban than worrying too much about NATO.

And that is where Haqqani network comes in and drones become a problem, but the US is at loggerheads with us on this point.
 
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The chest-thumping flag wavers won't even know what hit them when the trap of their own making is finally sprung when most opportune for those who control the whole shebang. It won't be the first time in human history that fools have rushed in where angels rightly feared to tread.

You are talking about Americans I suppose. You know fools rushing into Iraq and Afghanistan

The reason I say Pakistan has lost out on strategic significance due to the blockade is related to post-2014 Afghanistan. Pakistan will now find it much more difficult to have as influential a voice at the table as it would have otherwise had as an ally, and once the extra funds it may succeed in wrangling as transit fees as swallowed up by pre-existing liabilities, it will cost it dearly elsewhere.

Since 2006/7 Americans have been trying to extinguish any voice Pakistan has or had in Afghanistan. You are mistaken if you think Pakistani influence in Afghanistan is due to American policies

Dangerous waters ahead:

from: Pakistani official: Position to soften on NATO supply line - CSMonitor.com



Meanwhile, in other news:

It appears that the closure of supply routes is not likely to affect stated US positions much at all:

from: Drone strike kills three in North Waziristan - geo.tv

Yea American policies do seem mixed up. they seem to be inconsistent and incoherent depending on which media source you go to.
 
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...............Pakistan would be better off setting up a peace deal with the Taliban than worrying too much about NATO.

Yes, that is one way Pakistan can try to play its hand in post-2014 Afghanistan, but I do not see that as being realistic, considering the other implications of such a deal, primarily the continued presence of considerable NATO forces inside Afghanistan at least until 2024, and the increasing ties between India and Afghanistan during this time period.
 
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Yes, that is one way Pakistan can try to play its hand in post-2014 Afghanistan, but I do not see that as being realistic, considering the other implications of such a deal, primarily the continued presence of considerable NATO forces inside Afghanistan at least until 2024, and the increasing ties between India and Afghanistan during this time period.

Its a deterrent force, not a war fighting force that NATO is leaving behind. They expect the ANA to fight the Taliban which every expert is suggesting is a far fetched dream as they lack the discipline and the motivation to fight a well trained foe. If NATO could not achieve military success after conducting brigade level operations, what makes you think they will have any success with much lower number of soldiers. Afghanistan is too volatile of a country for any foreign invader to occupy, Americans will learn this eventually.

And that is where Haqqani network comes in and drones become a problem, but the US is at loggerheads with us on this point.

Indeed, speaks volumes of their hypocrisy. Why in the world would the Afghan Talibans need a safe haven in Pakistan when the Taliban control entire South and East of Afghanistan.
 
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Its a deterrent force, not a war fighting force that NATO is leaving behind. They expect the ANA to fight the Taliban which every expert is suggesting is a far fetched dream as they lack the discipline and the motivation to fight a well trained foe. If NATO could not achieve military success after conducting brigade level operations, what makes you think they will have any success with much lower number of soldiers. Afghanistan is too volatile of a country for any foreign invader to occupy, Americans will learn this eventually..............

Very true, but the deterrence will be certainly enough such that no one country or faction can expect to rule the roost unquestionably, as many were thinking post-2014. And that is the reason they will remain there, not to achieve total military victory, which is an impossibility, as you correctly point out, but to ensure that certain preferred trends of regional co-operation already set into motion are cemented over the next decade or so.
 
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Yes, that is one way Pakistan can try to play its hand in post-2014 Afghanistan, but I do not see that as being realistic, considering the other implications of such a deal, primarily the continued presence of considerable NATO forces inside Afghanistan at least until 2024, and the increasing ties between India and Afghanistan during this time period.


Afghanistan War: Taliban, Pakistan And Iran Could Hamper NATO Exit
Afghanistan War: Taliban, Pakistan And Iran Could Hamper NATO Exit
By DEB RIECHMANN 05/22/12 03:47 PM ET

The carefully orchestrated exit strategy could come unhinged if the resilient Taliban stage a major comeback or Afghanistan's neighbors interfere with the process to bolster their position in a weak country soon to be without thousands of international combat troops.

In short, the Taliban, Pakistan and Iran still get a vote.

The Taliban, who continue to carry out attacks across the country and have shown little interest in negotiating peace with the Afghan government, described the NATO summit as a "show" with "no result."

"Nobody can trust their statements and lies," Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid said in an e-mail to the media on Tuesday, a day after the two-day summit closed in Chicago. "They are claiming that everything is fine in Afghanistan, which is far from the reality."

At the summit, the U.S.-led NATO coalition finalized its plan for Afghan forces to take the lead in providing security in the middle of next year. Foreign troops will move into backup support and training roles, then completely end their combat mission at the close of 2014. The goal is to pull back gradually to avoid a repeat of the civil war that followed the Soviet exit two decades ago – chaos that paved the way for the rise of al-Qaida and the Taliban.

Ivo Daalder, the U.S. permanent representative to NATO, said Tuesday on a conference call with reporters that the U.S. has been paying close attention to the role of Iran and particularly Pakistan in the transition strategy for Afghanistan.

"We are in a very active and in-depth set of dialogues with Pakistan to find ways in which we can cooperate to deal with the problems that exist in order to make sure that our strategy in Afghanistan will succeed," Daalder said. "That's why we have and will continue to find ways to cooperate on dealing with the terrorists."

Pakistan has said repeatedly that it wants a stable Afghanistan, and the U.S. has given that country billions of dollars in aid over the past decade to enlist its support in fighting Islamist militants. But U.S. officials also have accused Pakistan of being a fickle ally and even supporting Taliban insurgents fighting the American troops in Afghanistan. Pakistan has denied this allegation.


Last year, then-Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen said the Haqqani network, which is affiliated with the Taliban and al-Qaida, "acts as a veritable arm" of Pakistan's intelligence agency. Mullen accused the network last year of staging an attack against the U.S. Embassy and NATO headquarters in Kabul and being behind a truck bombing that wounded 77 American soldiers. He claimed Pakistan's spy agency helped the group.

Still, both Afghanistan and the U.S. need Pakistan's help to negotiate a peace agreement with the Taliban.

"It is in Pakistan's interest to work with us and the world community to ensure that they themselves are not consumed by extremism that is in their midst," Obama said in Chicago.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai met with Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari on the sidelines of the summit. The main subject was Pakistan's role in the peace process. Karzai's office said in a statement that Zardari invited the head of the Afghan peace process to Pakistan to discuss the issue.

Pakistan is not a NATO member but was invited to the summit because of its influence in Afghanistan and its role until last year as the major supply route to landlocked NATO forces there. Pakistan closed those routes after a U.S. attack on the Pakistani side of the border killed 24 Pakistani soldiers in November. The routes remain closed because of a dispute over how much the U.S. will pay Pakistan to allow each truck to drive across its territory.

Iran also has the ability to complicate NATO's plans. Iran does not like the U.S. military footprint on its eastern border and will be closely watching negotiations on a U.S.-Afghan security agreement that will define the size and parameters of an American military presence in Afghanistan in the years to come.

Although the Iranians are cozier with Afghanistan's ethnic Hazara than with the majority Pashtuns who fill the ranks of the Taliban, NATO has accused Iran of providing the Taliban with weapons used against coalition forces.

Last year, NATO forces seized 48 Iranian-made rockets that officials said were intended to aid the Taliban. NATO officials said the shipment was evidence of a serious escalation in Iran's state support of the Taliban – an allegation Tehran denied. Western officials accuse Iran of conducting a proxy war against the U.S., which is in a standoff with Tehran over its nuclear program.

For now, Afghans are taking a wait-and-see approach to the summit's upbeat assessment of their future.

"We have witnessed a lot of international conferences on Afghanistan – conference after conference after conference," said Mohammad Qassim Zazai, a businessman from Paktia province who is living in Kabul. "The people say `Let's see what's going to happen on the ground.'"

Abdul Khaliq Bala Karzai, a parliament member, said he was pleased that world leaders expressed their commitment to Afghanistan even as they are pulling out their troops.

"I was watching on TV and they said they are going to protect Afghanistan and the Afghan people. Security is like water – very vital," said the lawmaker from Kandahar province, the birthplace of the insurgency.

The world leaders now need to pressure Iran and Pakistan to cooperate, not interfere, in Afghanistan, he said.

"For the time being, the Taliban are not able to fight on the ground against the Afghan and foreign troops. They are able only to launch guerrilla attacks, plant mines and carry out suicide attacks," he said. "When the foreign troops leave, the Taliban will get stronger, especially if these two countries support them – give them weapons and sanctuary, which is going on now."

Mawlana Farid, a political analyst in Kabul, said he also was heartened to hear the international community's strong support going forward.

"The world leaders in Chicago announced their unity in protecting Afghanistan, but we still have concerns about our neighbors – Pakistan and Iran," he said.

Even in front of 60 world leaders, Pakistan was not willing to open up its borders to allow NATO convoys to move through its territory, he lamented.

"These convoys are the ones being used to help fight the terrorism. Pakistan is not ready to cooperate," Farid said. "Pakistan needs to give their word to the international community that they will not support insurgents or terrorism. If not, the situation could get worse."

Afghanistan War: Taliban, Pakistan And Iran Could Hamper NATO Exit


How stupid Nato are to try dictating terms from such a weak position. In fact their attempt to settle the neighbourhood whilst ignoring Taliban Iran Pakistan is the height of folly and destined to failure


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/u-s-de...ran-could-hamper-nato-exit.html#ixzz1vhUUh8u0
 
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The disagreement on Pakistan's stance has as much to do with leverage as it does with right or wrong. Negotiations take place on a playing field leveled based on the underlying leverage of each party; thanks to your real world experience, I'm sure you'd understand this better than me.

The problem is the position of the USA is one of want, not need. The Americans, as the premier superpower have endless routes to choose from and can strong arm a whole host of nations to let them funnel in supplies. They insist on using the Pakistani route, because it is cheaper, not because it is the only route. There in lies the problem, the Americans can easily switch routes at a cost that will be irrelevant in what has now become a trillion dollar adventure over the last decade.

The fact that they haven't speaks to their confidence that they hold enough of the cards to pressure Pakistan into eventually giving in; were this to not take place, they can just as easily use that to their advantage. By constantly refusing to let supplies through, Pakistan is playing into the perception of a nation that is unwilling to help, and at worst, standing in the way of the fight against extremism and terrorism. While you and me agree that is largely unfair and incredibly biased; as the foremost military and media power, the American opinion and spin carries far more weight. By using Pakistan's position to incriminate itself, the US is doing far more damage to the Pakistani position from a political as well as an economic standpoint.

While we may disagree on the correct way to go about this, I fear the worst case scenario for Pakistan in this negotiation is far worse than the one faced by the Americans. If we lose this time, we may have just sacrificed the long term prosperity and strategic relevance of our nation. If the Americans come out on the bottom, they will simply swallow the loss of a few extra billion and find another way...or my greatest worry, become far more aggressive in enforcing their will on Pakistan. The unfortunately reality is that no one has the ability to withstand the true force of American aggression, the paranoia of which was enough to destroy the USSR.

i agree with most of your points and appreciate your response

on the issue of fighting extremism - let there be no doubt that the State has been against extremism and terrorism and Pakistan has neither the incentive nor the need to be seen as a hindrance to the ''war on terrorism''

but with that said, when Washington is in contact with the same people we are (but we get burned and blamed for their failure to achieve their objectives in Afghanistan) -- it causes confusion.

the issue here is the hypocrisy and double standards.....but what matter is, the neighborhood is ours. Beyond trillions of dollars and un-invited military presence NATO has no basis or justification for its campaign in Afghanistan. Several top senior officials in U.S. have been cited as saying that Al Qaeda's operational ability in the region is highly eroded and they are in disarray.

they should focus on AQ in Arabian Peninsula because that is where many of the international terrorist plots are originating.....and on Al Qaeda, it was only years ago the western media was all praise about Pakistan's counter-terrorism efforts and cooperation. However today (due partly because of ineptness of our leadership) either Pakistan is being highly mis-understood or its just vested interests and a vilification campaign simply to pressure Pakistan and try to make Pakistan do whatever others tell it to do.

i do agree that its not helpful or productive to be at odds with the ''lone superpower'' and in fact i dont think it suits Pakistan to break ties or be seen as ''hindrance'' to peace in Afghanistan (which we aren't and never have been)...however, Pakistan must take its own course of action in order to ensure its own security as well as regional security




it's not our fault if NATO alienated 45-50% of Afghanistan population by arming and funding rival ethnic groups and contributing to (rather than solving) the issues in that country
 
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Nato doesn't want to apologize, doesn't want to stop illegal drone strikes, and isn't even willing to pay a fee to use pakistani roads.... with friends like these who needs enemies. :blah:
 
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