U.S. bristles at stiff Pakistani NATO fees

[FaujHistorian]

But is anybody in Pakistan listening??



The US plays hardball in AfPpak
By Brian M Downing

Relations between the United States and Pakistan have deteriorated badly over the past year. Pakistan was initially embarrassed when US Special Forces found and killed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden just down the street from a Pakistani army camp, but the country - or at least its generals who hold sway there - turned the raid into an affront to national honor.

Last November, US troops fired on a Pakistani army camp, killing 24 soldiers. Its national honor injured once more, Pakistan closed off North Atlantic Treaty organization (NATO) supply lines into Afghanistan and confidently awaited an apology .....

Us Pakistanis need to be diplomatic as much as possible. Overplaying our hand will sour things for a long time to come, especially when we don't have other avenues of friendship with the USA.

Look at China, they prefer business with America over many "ghairat" and emotional issues such as Taiwan, Hongkong, and the blind guy (who recently was allowed to escape to USA).

Chinese $trillion business will be in cr@p shoot if they were not diplomatic with USA.


Peace,

 

[FaujHistorian]

If the US had not invaded Afghanistan with the poor planning that it did, the tribal belt would not have become inflamed, militants would not have been able to escape across the border into Pakistan from Afghanistan as happened.

The TTP did not exist prior to the US invasion of Afghanistan, and neither did the Mullah Nazir and Gul Bahadur Networks.

Why it is that so many Pakistanis are so ignorant of Talibani threat prior to the horrible incidents of 9/11?

Why? Are these all blind, and deaf? Summun bukmun?

Oh my dear poster, TTP bastards may have started their nefarious work in post-9/11 period, but TNSM was long time in place before 2001.

The first time around Pak army was lucky although our generals were getting ready for a fight in the 90s around Swat and Bajore against the TNSM goons. We got lucky that first time around black faced sufi mohammad was caught and sent to jail.

But his son picked up the same dastardly work.

It runs in the family of these goons.

In some ways TTP and other talibonis are bastard child of TNSM and Qaida's illicit bedhopping.


Oh well. No point in giving a lesson in history of Pak.

Some poster will remain main na manoon main na maanoon.


peace.

 

[muse]

Us Pakistanis need to be diplomatic as much as possible. Overplaying our hand will sour things for a long time to come, especially when we don't have other avenues of friendship with the USA.

Look at China, they prefer business with America over many "ghairat" and emotional issues such as Taiwan, Hongkong, and the blind guy (who recently was allowed to escape to USA).

Chinese $trillion business will be in cr@p shoot if they were not diplomatic with USA.


Peace,

I don't think this whole Ghairat argument has any legs, so far as the deterioration of relations between US and Pakistan are concerned --- as opposed to the commonality of interests, we find that our interests diverge in more cases than converge - this is the heart of the matter.

I am a strong supporter of good and strong relations with the US and I am persuaded that such relations have to be predicated on deep trade or commercial relations - again, this, given the insistence of the US that Pakistan do it's heavy lifting, is also not going to go anywhere.

Indeed, it's appropriate to be diplomatic with the US, so long as the US is diplomatic with Pakistan - this position, some sections of the Pakistani media think of as ghairat, whereas it is only appropriate diplomatic tact

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why it is that so many Pakistanis are so ignorant of Talibani threat prior to the horrible incidents of 9/11?

How am I 'ignorant' when it is you who is unable to make the distinction between specific groups (TTP, Gul Bahadur, Swat Taliban and TSNM)?

My point is accurate, the TTP, Mulah Nazir and Gul Bahadur groups did not exist prior to the US invasion of Afghanistan - what you are referring to (the existence of the TNSM) points to a broader challenge in terms of the presence of religious fundamentalism in Pakistan prior to the US invasion of Afghanistan - however, the fact remains that it was the US invasion that acted as a catalyst in both strengthening the existing groups (TNSM, Lal Masjid) as well as creating more (TTP, Swat Taliban etc.).

Ignoring the impact of the US invasion on the religious groups in Pakistan is disingenuous, but the liberals in Pakistan have chosen to pursue the distortion of history and denigration of the military as a 'religion', and your comments above are a good example of that distortion of history.

 

[muse]

[Unnecessary

 

[deckingraj]

Us Pakistanis need to be diplomatic as much as possible. Overplaying our hand will sour things for a long time to come, especially when we don't have other avenues of friendship with the USA.

Look at China, they prefer business with America over many "ghairat" and emotional issues such as Taiwan, Hongkong, and the blind guy (who recently was allowed to escape to USA).

Chinese $trillion business will be in cr@p shoot if they were not diplomatic with USA.


Peace,

That is the beauty of trade....China needs US and US needs China...it is as simple as that...Military conflict is only going to bring bad to both and so does sour relations by taking its toll on trade..

 

[Arsalan]

End the Afghan war now…
Eric S. Margolis (America Angle) / 28 May 2012

One of my favourite artists was the superb Victorian painter Lady Jane Butler who captured in oil the triumphs and tragedies of the British Empire.

Her haunting painting, “The Retreat from Kabul, ” shows the sole survivor of a British army of 16,500, Dr. William Brydon, struggling out of Afghanistan in January, 1842. All the rest were killed by Afghan tribesmen after a futile attempt to garrison Kabul.

This gripping painting should have hung over the Nato summit meeting last week in Chicago to remind the US and its allies that Afghanistan remains “the graveyard of empires.”

The latest empire to try to conquer Afghanistan has failed, and is now sounding the retreat.

All the hot air in Chicago about “transition,” Afghan self-reliance, and growing security could not conceal the truth that the mighty US and its Western allies have been beaten in Afghanistan by a bunch of mountain warriors from the 12th Century. The objective of war is to achieve political goals, not kill people. The US goal was to turn Afghanistan into a protectorate providing bases close to Caspian Basin oil, and to block China. After an eleven-year war costing $1 trillion, this effort failed – meaning a military and political defeat.

The US dragged Nato into a war in which it had no business and lacked any popular support. The result: a serious weakening of the NATO alliance, raising questions about whose interests it really serves. The defeat in Afghanistan will undermine US domination of Western Europe.

Claims made in Chicago that the US-installed Afghan regime will stand on its own with $4 billion of aid from the West were pie in the sky. Once US support ends, the Karzai regime is unlikely to survive much longer than did Najibullah’s Afghan Communist regime in Kabul after its Soviet sponsor withdrew in 1989. Or the US-run South Vietnamese regime that fell in 1975.

The current 350,000-man Afghan government army and police are mercenaries fighting for money supplied by the US and NATO. Many are ethnic Uzbeks and Tajiks, blood foes of the majority Pashtun. Taleban and its allies are fighting for nationalism and faith. History tells us who will prevail.

All Afghans know the Western powers have been defeated. Those with sense are already making deals with Taleban. Vengeance being a cherished Afghan custom, those who collaborated closely with the foreign forces can expect little mercy. Already there are worries about getting US and Nato troops out of Afghanistan. France’s new President, Francois Hollande, wisely reaffirmed his pledge to withdraw all French troops this year. Other Nato members are wishing they could do the same. To wage and sustain the Afghan War, the US has been forced to virtually occupy Pakistan, bribe its high officials, and force Islamabad to follow policies hated by 95 per cent of its people, generating virulent anti-Americanism. The Afghan War must be ended before it tears apart Pakistan and plunges South Asia into crisis into which nuclear-armed India is likely to become involved.

Washington intends to leave garrisons in Afghanistan after the 2014 announced pullout date, rebranding them ‘trainers’ instead of combat troops. Their mission will be to keep the pro-US Afghan regime in power. But neither the US nor NATO will come up with the $4 billion promised in Chicago.

Washington is encouraging India to get ever more deeply involved in Afghanistan – even to become its new colonial power. India would be wise to keep its hands off.

In a second “Retreat from Kabul,” remaining US garrisons in Afghanistan may face the fate of the 1842 British invaders, cut off, ambushed, and hacked to pieces by the ferocious 
Pashtun tribesmen.
Eric Margolis is a veteran US journalist
End the Afghan war now…

 

[FaujHistorian]

How am I 'ignorant' when it is you who is unable to make the distinction between specific groups (TTP, Gul Bahadur, Swat Taliban and TSNM)?

My point is accurate, the TTP, Mulah Nazir and Gul Bahadur groups did not exist prior to the US invasion of Afghanistan - what you are referring to (the existence of the TNSM) points to a broader challenge in terms of the presence of religious fundamentalism in Pakistan prior to the US invasion of Afghanistan - however, the fact remains that it was the US invasion that acted as a catalyst in both strengthening the existing groups (TNSM, Lal Masjid) as well as creating more (TTP, Swat Taliban etc.).

Ignoring the impact of the US invasion on the religious groups in Pakistan is disingenuous, but the liberals in Pakistan have chosen to pursue the distortion of history and denigration of the military as a 'religion', and your comments above are a good example of that distortion of history.

Nothing personal my dear dear fellow poster,
-- checkout my posts and you will see I never use personal attacks.

Such arguments are the exact copy of LeT and JuD etc. ' n na-Pak philosophy.

Pak government bans one group, and another pops out, but their hate for Pakistan and Pakistani interests remains the same. TNSM is gone and TTP comes around. Just the same wolf in a different sheep's ar$e.

1979 burning of US embassy in Islamabad had nothing to do with US invasion of anybody's pants or Shalwar.

But Islamists did it anyways.

Any argument about "catalyst" this or "catalyst" that is simply the support of Islamism. That's all.

If USA had not invaded Ahghanistan, these Islamists would have used other well established excuses such as Pill-stine, Iraq, Iran etc.

Only Islamists would support death and destruction in pakistan, in the name of Amreeka. So these arguments are not new.


Coming back to the blame game of "Liberals" vs. Islamists.

Me thinks both of them are two sides of the same leftie-commie picture. One is God-loving-Leftie-socialist, and the other is Godless-leftie-commie. Still both are the same,

Both of them hate the West, and free market,

Islamists feed off the dead skeleton of Liberals
and
Liberals feed off the Islamist $hite.


Many in Pakistan tend to blame only the Islamists moolahs, without realizing that moolahs feed off of the anti-West hateful stinking $hite spread so "lovingly" by the liberals in Pakistan.


So let's not change the subject by starting You liberal, Me Islamist blame game. It is not going to be helpful for Pakistan.


Many Islamists truly worry that American success in Afghanistan will result in the end of Islamism in Pakistan too.

So

They keep on fanning the hate flames over and over while in the process of burning down my beautiful country Pakistan.


peace.

End the Afghan war now…
Eric S. Margolis (America Angle) / 28 May 2012.......
Washington is encouraging India to get ever more deeply involved in Afghanistan – even to become its new colonial power. India would be wise to keep its hands off. ....

This is just fear mongering. Indians cannot stay in Afghanistan if NATO isn't there, at least not in large numbers.

Unless Iran or Russia supplies the Indians, there is no way a large scale Indian presence can be sustained.

Eric Margolis is just desperate to pin any kind of hate possible to discredit NATO's stabilization of Afghanistan.

This time NATO knows that if they don't support Afghanistan's long term stability. it will cost less than 1.5 billions a year of direct aid to Afghanistan gov and not $4 billion.

AFghani population is less than a large Pakistani city, so keeping it alive financially is not a big deal.

The main expense is going to be the maintenance of 8000-10,000 NATO/US troops until 2024 or beyond.

peace.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Oh my dear poster, TTP bastards may have started their nefarious work in post-9/11 period, but TNSM was long time in place before 2001.

no, not till Lal Masjid operation did the spate of attacks increase significantly

whereas in the immediate period post 9/11 the targets were largely higher up officials (including the former PM and the Chief Executive/COAS) --- later on it became any sorry nameless faceless civilian that was at wrong place at wrong time.

totally indiscrimate attacks that were aimed to break the fabric of Pakistan society and scare people into oblivion.....little did the attackers and their handlers/backers know that Pakistani will is very easy to break, our nation has been resilient.

The first time around Pak army was lucky although our generals were getting ready for a fight in the 90s around Swat and Bajore against the TNSM goons. We got lucky that first time around black faced sufi mohammad was caught and sent to jail.

But his son picked up the same dastardly work.

and his sons (all 3 of them actually) were arrested and presented to the ATC courts on suspicion

In some ways TTP and other talibonis are bastard child of TNSM and Qaida's illicit bedhopping.

when and where their objectives merged, they have worked together

on TTP and Al Qaeda, Pakistan has been incredibly soft towards Uzbekistan - where many of these terrorists are originating from. I'm surprised none of you even make mention about the ''Islamic Emirate'' of Uzbekistan group. It's a consortium of terrorist groups, and the state of Pakistan has been in their cross-hairs.

And actually one of the main demands Pakistan made to taleban government in 1998 i believe it was -- to expel these Uzbek and Arab-origin militants that our forces have engaged against on many instances. I believe some terrorists of the Mehran attack were of Uzbek origin, as was one of the terrorists from the Manawan Police academy attack in Lahore in 2009 (many many other instances)

it's a multifaceted problem - but there are solutions. Some military and some non-military. Militarily, we are going step by step and elimanting all anti-Pak threats. There've been numerous successes (proof of that is the drastic decrease in terror attacks which is a welcome sign), there've been some failures, some areas which we need to improve on. But we're getting there and we need the government to also play its part and help bring in private sector and education sector and more NGOs onboard to bring development to the war-affected areas

since the Pak govt. was going on unabated in its policy of begging america for ''aid'' money - why the hell didnt they spent it where it should have gone? Where are the visible results?

the GOVT must do more to establish its WRIT!!! Otherwise its inevitable you will have a power vacuum of sorts - which brings us back to this issue of militancy and how easy it is for the enemies of Pakistan to exploit these situations for their own nefarious goals and purposes!

How am I 'ignorant' when it is you who is unable to make the distinction between specific groups (TTP, Gul Bahadur, Swat Taliban and TSNM)?

My point is accurate, the TTP, Mulah Nazir and Gul Bahadur groups did not exist prior to the US invasion of Afghanistan - what you are referring to (the existence of the TNSM) points to a broader challenge in terms of the presence of religious fundamentalism in Pakistan prior to the US invasion of Afghanistan - however, the fact remains that it was the US invasion that acted as a catalyst in both strengthening the existing groups (TNSM, Lal Masjid) as well as creating more (TTP, Swat Taliban etc.)..

as well as that group ''Khorasan'' - or whatever they were calling themselves


the ones who took the claim for the cold-blooded murder of Col. Imam

 

[idune]

Hope you have not forgotten that US is the boss and they deserve it. I appreciate them coming to Afghanistan to fix it. They are the one who helps pretty much every country in the world at the time of crisis. The amount of work they have done across the world they are in my opinion done great job and that is why they deserve power too.

According to your post US is working for good cause and india among other countries is beneficiary of indian work. So why not let US pay $250 and India pay the rest - $4750? Pakistan can get what has been asked, india and US can be satisfied.

According to your calculation, as India not as active as US have been for good cause, should pay more than US for sending truck across Pakistan to Afghanistan and beyond. How about $6000 per indian truck?

 

[Hulk]

Us Pakistanis need to be diplomatic as much as possible. Overplaying our hand will sour things for a long time to come, especially when we don't have other avenues of friendship with the USA.

Look at China, they prefer business with America over many "ghairat" and emotional issues such as Taiwan, Hongkong, and the blind guy (who recently was allowed to escape to USA).

Chinese $trillion business will be in cr@p shoot if they were not diplomatic with USA.


Peace,

Nice post, national interest matters a lot over ego. Most of time having a relation and working your problems is better idea than breaking.

NATO supply route has become like saap chachundar, na nigla jaye na ugla jaye.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

these bhartis have no basis to talk about morality or any of that until they man up and pocket some of the costs of housing millions of afghan refugees -- which is what Pakistan has been doing pretty much all of the past 30+ years (Islamic Republic of Iran as well)

 

[pakdefender]

1. No opening of the supply routes
2. Continue pressing for apology for attack on Salala check post

Americans are being arrogant , we should work on this and cause forced errors in their already failing adventure in the region.