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Turkish secularism and its relationship with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan

Another major reason as others have pointed out is that despite being surrounded by imperial powers on all sides, Turkey prevailed under the leadership of Atatürk. Pakistan is a very martial country and soldiers and those that join the army have great prestige here. For so many Turks to have made the ultimate sacrifice for their freedom and defy the odds is seen by many in Pakistan as evidence that Turks are warriors.
The country's Ottoman heritage also helps as does a shared cultural heritage in say the Mughals or in in the shape of Rumi. Even to this day many streets and neighbourhoods in the old cities of Pakistan have Turkish names. My father grew up in the old walled city of Lahore next to a neighbourhood called mohalla chabuk sawaran (neighbourhood of fast riders).
 
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can you share that copy of map

True fact: The Turks, to this day, have maps of Jannat-ul-Baqi, showing where each personality has been laid to rest. During my pilgrimage, I ran into a Turkish brother, and he allowed me to accompany him to all the graves and I knew whose grave I am at. One of the Muttawwas tried to confiscate the map from us, and I used whatever broken Arabic I have to rescue the map. The Turkish brother then allowed me to make a copy of it!

:smitten::smitten::smitten:
can you share this copy of the map?
 
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Well simplest thing I can add to this topic is an image.
images(2).jpg
A turk aolo pilot greeted by a common Pakiatani women just like his mother.
To me this explains a lot abt pak turk relations.
Just look at her face and try to read her emotions
thats how we love Turkic people
 
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Isn't it interesting? Having a diplomatic relationship with Turkey is generally considered as very complicated. However, there is one country on this planet which always has had a very good relationship with Turkey: it's Pakistan.

To begin with, it is truly no secret that Turkey's domestic policy dynamics are often very difficult to understand for foreigners. Yet, some assumptions about Turkey are false but others are truth and one reality is that the Turkish society indeed is extremely politicized and fractional. We have secular, nationalist and conservative/religious groups and parties. All of them have one thing in common: they hate each other's guts and everything they do even though it might be good for the country. Of course, this also affects Turkey's foreign policy. Secular parties like CHP are favoring the West, nationalist parties like MHP are focusing on Central Asian countries and Mr. Erdogan's AKP doesn't want to exclude the Middle East from Turkey's foreign policy map.

But throughout history, Pakistan managed successfully to have excellent ties with Turkey regardless of the domestic situation in Ankara. Down to the present day, Pakistan is probably the only Islamic country which is respected by all of the main political groups/parties in Turkey, including secular and nationalistic groups. How did Pakistan mastered this balancing act?

Often Arabian and Iranian friends are asking me why hardcore Kemalist/nationalistic Turks are at least respecting and tolerating Pakistan while condemning Saudi Arabia and Iran, implying that these three states are of the same kind.

Two main factors determine the success of Pakistan's Turkey policy:

1. No religious confessionalism.

Islamabad's support for Turkey is well-known. In addition, Pakistan has always supported the Shia-majority Turkic country Azerbaijan along with Turkey. From the Turkish nationalist perspective, this is quite an unique feature of Pakistan in the Muslim world. Pakistan is seen as a friend of the Turkish people as a whole rather than as a friend of a particular group within the Turkish nation. Besides, Turkish nationalists are used to be the target of hatred from Arabians, Persians and Balkan/Caucasian nations for the past Ottoman rule. In case of Pakistan, many Pakistanis are proud of the Turco-Mongolian Moghul Empire, which makes them appear even more likeable and sympathetic. It should not be forgotten that Pakistan does not recognize the Republic of Armenia due to its illegal occupation of Azeri territory. That is perceived as a declaration of love in Turkey and Azerbaijan.



2. No interference policy; no disrespect towards Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

Countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran are considered as not trustworthy. It is no secret that both countries pursue an anti-secular foreign policy. Especially secular groups are suspicious of them. Many Kemalists don't even want to see Iranians and Saudis entering Turkey in the first place. The most important cause of this hate is a certain breach of the diplomatic protocol in Ankara. Neither Iranian nor Saudi politicians are visiting the mausoleum of Atatürk even though it is part of the official protocol in Ankara for every foreign diplomat. Contrary to these two nations, diplomats of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are always paying tribute to Atatürk. One cannot put into words, how important this is for many secular people in Turkey. For Kemalist Turkish voters, paying tribute to Atatürk is politically and symbolically a pivotal moment. Ironically, everything regarding this issue becomes even more vital due to the fact that Pakistan is actually an Islamic Republic. This is funny because Pakistan's constitution is a nightmare for Kemalists but in the twisted reality of Turkish domestic politics, visits from religious Pakistani politicians are of great importance because it's an opportunity for secular groups to underline the lasting impact of Atatürk he still has in one of the most important countries of the entire Islamic world. Aside from that, they know how respected the nuclear-armed Pakistani nation for its fight against India is.

But Turkish secularists aren't idiots. They acknowledge the ideological differences between Turkey and Pakistan but unlike Iran/Saudi Arabia, Pakistan is seen as a friend despite the fact that the country has a different ideological foundation. The respectful way Pakistanis are dealing with Atatürk is the main reason why Kemalists are respecting Pakistan today. Even high-ranking hardcore Kemalist generals and soldiers are talking in a fair and respectful manner about Pakistan.

When Pakistani politicians/generals are visiting Turkey, they always pay tribute to Atatürk:

Yousaf Raza Gillani

2I-wAQXXRT_kq6sl6FFiLA.png


He described Atatürk as "the greatest revolutionary in the history of mankind" and "the father of the Turkish Republic".

Former Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif

image_resize%20(2).jpg



Nawaz Sharif

ankara-pakistan-basbakani-navaz-serif-anitkabirde_9743405-13770_640x360.jpg



Streets are named after Atatürk in Pakistan

Atatürk Avenue, Islamabad

178267208_7bbc7345b5.jpg


s-3c953a0768b7dad49936779f0f3aa3949432514e.jpg



Atatürk road, Sialkot

s-81a8bcd1245368bd381e4d45eb8c7324fa272b0c.jpg


Commemorative stamps are issued to honor and remember him

images


Ke-25.JPG


styan-9.JPG


Schools are teaching about Atatürk in a respectful way.

rxM9vHFSS5KmpJ-4zyeDHQ.png



Military exercises are conducted and named after Atatürk to honor and remember him (+ to strengthen the bond with the predominantly Kemalist military)
-> http://www.ntv.com.tr/galeri/dunya/...kexFMmrATEqjxTwmBICJ8A/lnGKeDaDlkysqHsX0HCAZA

etc.pp.

Neither Iran nor Saudi Arabia are doing what Pakistan is doing to win the hearts of the secular classes in Turkey. That's a fact. The amount of energy the Pakistani elite is investing to honor the memory of Atatürk is impressive even though there are quite a lot ideological differences.

But why are the Pakistani elites doing this in the first place? Two important persons for the history of Pakistan are behind this policy: Muhammad Ali Jinnah & Muhammad Iqbal.

Muhammad Jinnah is well-known for his positive views about Atatürk.

quote-the-exploits-of-your-leaders-in-many-a-historic-field-of-battle-the-progress-of-your-revolution-muhammad-ali-jinnah-240856.jpg


Muhammad Iqbal

"(...) How did Iqbal view Mustafa Kemal Atatürk? How, in other words, did he react and respond to the changes being initiated in Kemalist Turkey? On this subject, Iqbal expressed himself repeatedly, and at great length, though not always in uniform terms. His final position is what he maintained in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam. Our passage from his lecture on ‘The Principle of Movement in the Structure of Islam’, epitomises well his perception of the Turkish experience, and, therefore, needs substantial reproduction:

“The truth is that among the Muslim nations of today, Turkey above has shaken off its dogmatic slumber, and attained to self-consciousness. She alone has claimed her right of intellectual freedom; she alone has passed from the ideal to the real -a transition which entails keen intellectual and moral struggle. To her the growing complexities of a mobile and broadening life are sure to hiring new situations suggesting new points of view, and necessitating fresh interpretations of principles which are only of an academic interest to a people who have never experienced the joy of spiritual expansion…(M)ost Muslim countries today… are mechanically repeating old values, whereas the Turk is on the way to creating new values. He has passed through great experiences which have revealed his deeper self to him. In him, life has begun to move, change and amplify, giving birth to new desires, bringing new difficulties and suggesting new interpretations. The question which confronts him today, and which is likely to confront other Muslim countries in the near future is whether the Law of Islam is capable of evolution -a question which will require great intellectual effort, and is sure to be answered in the affirmative…”.8

The basic point in Iqbal’s stand is that he was neither resigning himself to the fait accompli, nor was he offering a kind of an apologia for what was going on in Turkey. For him the only way to understand and appreciate the dynamism of the Turkish experiment was to develop on this problem a perspective which itself was not merely pragmatic but also dynamic. This indeed, was the way in which Iqbal viewed the measures suggested or taken in Atatürk’s Turkey. The basic achievement of Turkey, in his view, was that it had passed from the ideal to the real even though the experiment had tended to deny, in many ways, the validity of the ideal itself. Since Iqbal himself would reconstruct religious thought in Islam on the assumption that there was a need for such a reconstruction, and that this enterprise would be in the nature of a departure from tradition, his position on theoretical grounds was, therefore, compatible, even synonymous, with that of the Kemalist Turk. There is thus, no reason why he should not have ‘heartily welcome(d) the liberal movement in modern Islam’.9 In fact, Iqbal hoped that the Indian Muslims, too, one day, like the Turks, would reevaluate their intellectual inheritance, and if were unable to make any positive contribution, at least provide a healthy restraint on the rapid movement of liberalism.l0 (...)"

Source:
Muslims of British India and the Kemalist Reform in Turkey, Iqbal, Jinnah and Atatürk - M. NAEEM QURESHI
http://www.atam.gov.tr/dergi/sayi-3...ist-reform-in-turkey-iqbal-jinnah-and-ataturk

So, it is not surprising that Turkish secularists and nationalists are respecting Pakistan deeply. Apart from this, it is well-known that the Anatolian religious classes of Turkey have sympathies for Pakistan for a variety of reasons.

To sum it up, Pakistan is like an ideological supermarket for Turks. Every political group in Turkey is able to find a specific item which suits them best ideologically. Every political party in Turkey can make his case by using a specific aspect or historic personality of the Pakistani siasat. Take into account the importance of Pakistan in the Islamic World and the fact that Pakistan is the first and until now only nuclear armed Muslim-majority nation and you will understand why all of the political groups in Turkey are going to continue to use the Pakistani argument.



We the Pakistani people love all our Turkish brothers & sisters with a passionate heart no matter what, forever and always.........8-)
 
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To sum it up, Pakistan is like an ideological supermarket for Turks. Every political group in Turkey is able to find a specific item which suits them best ideologically. Every political party in Turkey can make his case by using a specific aspect or historic personality of the Pakistani siasat. Take into account the importance of Pakistan in the Islamic World and the fact that Pakistan is the first and until now only nuclear armed Muslim-majority nation and you will understand why all of the political groups in Turkey are going to continue to use the Pakistani argument.

This was a very well written article, I must say.
 
. . .
Isn't it interesting? Having a diplomatic relationship with Turkey is generally considered as very complicated. However, there is one country on this planet which always has had a very good relationship with Turkey: it's Pakistan.

To begin with, it is truly no secret that Turkey's domestic policy dynamics are often very difficult to understand for foreigners. Yet, some assumptions about Turkey are false but others are truth and one reality is that the Turkish society indeed is extremely politicized and fractional. We have secular, nationalist and conservative/religious groups and parties. All of them have one thing in common: they hate each other's guts and everything they do even though it might be good for the country. Of course, this also affects Turkey's foreign policy. Secular parties like CHP are favoring the West, nationalist parties like MHP are focusing on Central Asian countries and Mr. Erdogan's AKP doesn't want to exclude the Middle East from Turkey's foreign policy map.

But throughout history, Pakistan managed successfully to have excellent ties with Turkey regardless of the domestic situation in Ankara. Down to the present day, Pakistan is probably the only Islamic country which is respected by all of the main political groups/parties in Turkey, including secular and nationalistic groups. How did Pakistan mastered this balancing act?

Often Arabian and Iranian friends are asking me why hardcore Kemalist/nationalistic Turks are at least respecting and tolerating Pakistan while condemning Saudi Arabia and Iran, implying that these three states are of the same kind.

Two main factors determine the success of Pakistan's Turkey policy:

1. No religious confessionalism.

Islamabad's support for Turkey is well-known. In addition, Pakistan has always supported the Shia-majority Turkic country Azerbaijan along with Turkey. From the Turkish nationalist perspective, this is quite an unique feature of Pakistan in the Muslim world. Pakistan is seen as a friend of the Turkish people as a whole rather than as a friend of a particular group within the Turkish nation. Besides, Turkish nationalists are used to be the target of hatred from Arabians, Persians and Balkan/Caucasian nations for the past Ottoman rule. In case of Pakistan, many Pakistanis are proud of the Turco-Mongolian Moghul Empire, which makes them appear even more likeable and sympathetic. It should not be forgotten that Pakistan does not recognize the Republic of Armenia due to its illegal occupation of Azeri territory. That is perceived as a declaration of love in Turkey and Azerbaijan.



2. No interference policy; no disrespect towards Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

Countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran are considered as not trustworthy. It is no secret that both countries pursue an anti-secular foreign policy. Especially secular groups are suspicious of them. Many Kemalists don't even want to see Iranians and Saudis entering Turkey in the first place. The most important cause of this hate is a certain breach of the diplomatic protocol in Ankara. Neither Iranian nor Saudi politicians are visiting the mausoleum of Atatürk even though it is part of the official protocol in Ankara for every foreign diplomat. Contrary to these two nations, diplomats of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are always paying tribute to Atatürk. One cannot put into words, how important this is for many secular people in Turkey. For Kemalist Turkish voters, paying tribute to Atatürk is politically and symbolically a pivotal moment. Ironically, everything regarding this issue becomes even more vital due to the fact that Pakistan is actually an Islamic Republic. This is funny because Pakistan's constitution is a nightmare for Kemalists but in the twisted reality of Turkish domestic politics, visits from religious Pakistani politicians are of great importance because it's an opportunity for secular groups to underline the lasting impact of Atatürk he still has in one of the most important countries of the entire Islamic world. Aside from that, they know how respected the nuclear-armed Pakistani nation for its fight against India is.

But Turkish secularists aren't idiots. They acknowledge the ideological differences between Turkey and Pakistan but unlike Iran/Saudi Arabia, Pakistan is seen as a friend despite the fact that the country has a different ideological foundation. The respectful way Pakistanis are dealing with Atatürk is the main reason why Kemalists are respecting Pakistan today. Even high-ranking hardcore Kemalist generals and soldiers are talking in a fair and respectful manner about Pakistan.

When Pakistani politicians/generals are visiting Turkey, they always pay tribute to Atatürk:

Yousaf Raza Gillani

2I-wAQXXRT_kq6sl6FFiLA.png


He described Atatürk as "the greatest revolutionary in the history of mankind" and "the father of the Turkish Republic".

Former Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif

image_resize%20(2).jpg



Nawaz Sharif

ankara-pakistan-basbakani-navaz-serif-anitkabirde_9743405-13770_640x360.jpg



Streets are named after Atatürk in Pakistan

Atatürk Avenue, Islamabad

178267208_7bbc7345b5.jpg


s-3c953a0768b7dad49936779f0f3aa3949432514e.jpg



Atatürk road, Sialkot

s-81a8bcd1245368bd381e4d45eb8c7324fa272b0c.jpg


Commemorative stamps are issued to honor and remember him

images


Ke-25.JPG


styan-9.JPG


Schools are teaching about Atatürk in a respectful way.

rxM9vHFSS5KmpJ-4zyeDHQ.png



Military exercises are conducted and named after Atatürk to honor and remember him (+ to strengthen the bond with the predominantly Kemalist military)
-> http://www.ntv.com.tr/galeri/dunya/...kexFMmrATEqjxTwmBICJ8A/lnGKeDaDlkysqHsX0HCAZA

etc.pp.

Neither Iran nor Saudi Arabia are doing what Pakistan is doing to win the hearts of the secular classes in Turkey. That's a fact. The amount of energy the Pakistani elite is investing to honor the memory of Atatürk is impressive even though there are quite a lot ideological differences.

But why are the Pakistani elites doing this in the first place? Two important persons for the history of Pakistan are behind this policy: Muhammad Ali Jinnah & Muhammad Iqbal.

Muhammad Jinnah is well-known for his positive views about Atatürk.

quote-the-exploits-of-your-leaders-in-many-a-historic-field-of-battle-the-progress-of-your-revolution-muhammad-ali-jinnah-240856.jpg


Muhammad Iqbal

"(...) How did Iqbal view Mustafa Kemal Atatürk? How, in other words, did he react and respond to the changes being initiated in Kemalist Turkey? On this subject, Iqbal expressed himself repeatedly, and at great length, though not always in uniform terms. His final position is what he maintained in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam. Our passage from his lecture on ‘The Principle of Movement in the Structure of Islam’, epitomises well his perception of the Turkish experience, and, therefore, needs substantial reproduction:

“The truth is that among the Muslim nations of today, Turkey above has shaken off its dogmatic slumber, and attained to self-consciousness. She alone has claimed her right of intellectual freedom; she alone has passed from the ideal to the real -a transition which entails keen intellectual and moral struggle. To her the growing complexities of a mobile and broadening life are sure to hiring new situations suggesting new points of view, and necessitating fresh interpretations of principles which are only of an academic interest to a people who have never experienced the joy of spiritual expansion…(M)ost Muslim countries today… are mechanically repeating old values, whereas the Turk is on the way to creating new values. He has passed through great experiences which have revealed his deeper self to him. In him, life has begun to move, change and amplify, giving birth to new desires, bringing new difficulties and suggesting new interpretations. The question which confronts him today, and which is likely to confront other Muslim countries in the near future is whether the Law of Islam is capable of evolution -a question which will require great intellectual effort, and is sure to be answered in the affirmative…”.8

The basic point in Iqbal’s stand is that he was neither resigning himself to the fait accompli, nor was he offering a kind of an apologia for what was going on in Turkey. For him the only way to understand and appreciate the dynamism of the Turkish experiment was to develop on this problem a perspective which itself was not merely pragmatic but also dynamic. This indeed, was the way in which Iqbal viewed the measures suggested or taken in Atatürk’s Turkey. The basic achievement of Turkey, in his view, was that it had passed from the ideal to the real even though the experiment had tended to deny, in many ways, the validity of the ideal itself. Since Iqbal himself would reconstruct religious thought in Islam on the assumption that there was a need for such a reconstruction, and that this enterprise would be in the nature of a departure from tradition, his position on theoretical grounds was, therefore, compatible, even synonymous, with that of the Kemalist Turk. There is thus, no reason why he should not have ‘heartily welcome(d) the liberal movement in modern Islam’.9 In fact, Iqbal hoped that the Indian Muslims, too, one day, like the Turks, would reevaluate their intellectual inheritance, and if were unable to make any positive contribution, at least provide a healthy restraint on the rapid movement of liberalism.l0 (...)"

Source:
Muslims of British India and the Kemalist Reform in Turkey, Iqbal, Jinnah and Atatürk - M. NAEEM QURESHI
http://www.atam.gov.tr/dergi/sayi-3...ist-reform-in-turkey-iqbal-jinnah-and-ataturk

So, it is not surprising that Turkish secularists and nationalists are respecting Pakistan deeply. Apart from this, it is well-known that the Anatolian religious classes of Turkey have sympathies for Pakistan for a variety of reasons.

To sum it up, Pakistan is like an ideological supermarket for Turks. Every political group in Turkey is able to find a specific item which suits them best ideologically. Every political party in Turkey can make his case by using a specific aspect or historic personality of the Pakistani siasat. Take into account the importance of Pakistan in the Islamic World and the fact that Pakistan is the first and until now only nuclear armed Muslim-majority nation and you will understand why all of the political groups in Turkey are going to continue to use the Pakistani argument.
I usually use Turkish airline for my trips ... all is well , but Turkish air hostess treat passenger like mothers, but men are totally opposite ...lolzz... anyway, always have good interaction...
 
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And, so were the most of the Ottoman Sultans.....

By the by, Mevlana was basically a Veli.....


And so is Jinnah Jaddesi (Jinnah Avenue in Ankara - leads up to the hill top to the Presidential palace (currently used by PM), and the Parliament is down at the bottom).....

One of my Turkish friend from Univ. told me that Indian embassy is actually on Jinnah Ave in Turkey. Funny if true

I usually use Turkish airline for my trips ... all is well , but Turkish air hostess treat passenger like mothers, but men are totally opposite ...lolzz... anyway, always have good interaction...

Back during my univ days i was renting a place and the landlord was living downstairs, she was Turkish and an amazing lady, I used to call her Hala which is Turkish for Khala. She used to make amazing food and always send me some, because i used to remind her of her Son who was living somewhere overseas. I still remember her Gozleme, its like Qeema Parathas.
 
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Well, when you go on a Wahabi rampage all over the forum no one gags you (I should actually from today onwards). Besides this thread is neither about compatibility test of Islam with national identity nor consumption of alcohol, and moreover no one asked your advice.

If you have read the above at least twice, you can return to your usual sport of 'wife beating'.....

Turkish secularism or laiklik is completely incompatible with Islam.

I thought the ataturk was a traitor who drank alcohol. I am not here to offend, but people say the ataturk was not a Muslim.

Its their choice or Turkey's choice to be secular.
 
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