Turkish Peace Operations in Syria (Operation Olive Branch) Updates & Discussions

[SouI]

If you have no functioning AC you will open all hatches, that's normal.

The Leo 2 A4 s are not easy repairable as our SABRA's. Decent armor ? Better than modular ERA of M-60T ?
Leo vulnerability is hidropnömatik sistem. If pump is once damaged tank is dead.

M60 A3 replaced with an all electrical drive

A big issue with the Turkish Leopard 2 tanks is the fact that they are outdated, they are not designed to resist currently available ATGMs and their armor is completely focused on protecting the frontal arc. It is not clear which armor package is fitted to the Turkish Leopard 2A4. While the late production Leopard 2A4 tanks received stronger armor inserts, all older production models were converted to the Leopard 2A4 configuration - without changing the armor composition! In fact even a few of the newly built Leopard 2A4 tanks were built with one of the older armor packages. Between 1979 and 1992 (the time were the Leopard 2 tank was series produced in Germany) three different generations of armor were used. It is not known if these are identical with single armor packages or mutliple different armor packages were used within a "technology generation". The first generation armor was introduced in 1979, while the second generation armor (1988) and third generation armor (1991) were exlusively used on Leopard 2A4 tanks.


Possible hirdopnömatik sistem damage tank abandoned ?

Ammo blew up

COMPARISON :

Fully intact SABRA abandoned after active fire extinguishings system,
white powder could be sodium chloride powder

Operational SABRA after hit in Iraq

GERMAN myth is dead !

It is not how it works.

You are comparing "lots of" ammo blowing up "inside" a tank vs a tank that got hit once.

By that comparison Leo is hundreds of times better than Sabra given its condition aftermath.

It is a miracle that it has not been blown into many little pieces of metal all around of its original position, and instead stayed "intact".

 

[JustHappened]

It is not how it works.

You are comparing "lots of" ammo blowing up "inside" a tank vs a tank that got hit once.

By that comparison Leo is hundreds of times better than Sabra given its condition aftermath.

It is a miracle that it has not been blown into many little pieces of metal all around of its original position, and instead stayed "intact".

What is your clear point ?

 

[SouI]

What is your clear point ?

The opposite of what you claimed.

 

[JustHappened]

By that comparison Leo is hundreds of times better than Sabra given its condition aftermath.

Read my post about Leo 2 A4 , then think twice please.

snafu-solomon /2016/12/turkish-armored-vehicle-losses-in-syria.html



Sabra vs Leo ?

 

[Blackwolf12]

The opposite of what you claimed.

Buddy I have not seen a picture of Leo hit by an ATGM in good condition. Just look at those pictures those Leo's are completely destroyed. That sabra has a mere dent compared to the Leo's.

 

[SouI]

Buddy I have not seen a picture of Leo hit by an ATGM in good condition. Just look at those pictures those Leo's are completely destroyed. That sabra has a mere dent compared to the Leo's.

I think Sabra is a great tank absolutely, I was just merely pointing out at the unfair comparison he did.

That Sabra would have been blown to pieces if it's ammo blowed up.

 

[JustHappened]

if it's ammo blowed up.

Ammo blows only up if armor is complete penetrated and fire tail gets in tank.
LEO delivered to Turkiye was a trap at all

 

[Blackwolf12]

I think Sabra is a great tank absolutely, I was just merely pointing out at the unfair comparison he did.

That Sabra would have been blown to pieces if it's ammo blowed up.

Ok yes then in that case I agree.

 

[TheMightyBender]

Bizaa captured...

It's all over twitter, work them fingers..

I was gonna say hang on to your pants, it will probably be recaptured by ISIL. But then I thought I should check the news. I think you can guess the rest.

 

[JustHappened]

M4 highway seems to be the border between SAA and ES.

TurAf

https://twitter.com/x/status/827830949094240259

RuAf

https://twitter.com/x/status/827937733939191809

 

[mete]

There are diffirent materials used in tanks for diffirent countries.

For example, M1 abrahams tanks used in US have diffirent materials than exported ones. It is a huge diffirance. They have frontal armor made of uranium alloyed steel. (inside outer armor layers) It gives extreme ballistic protection, it is really hard to penetrate that layer when uranium alloys are used. (there are more than one alloys where uranium used) Tanks that are sold to Saudi Arabia do not have that armor layer. And it is not just that, I bet there are hundreds of diffirences, including electronics too. (And that is one of the most possible reason that why american tank crews served at iraq have many chronic metabolic problems including endocrine, pulmoner and cardiac problems.)

Leo tanks that Germany sold to us had really crappy hit chance when they were mobile. That is an example of diffirance that I can recongnise right now.

 

[JustHappened]

Turks were cheated from GERMANY !


A detailed analysis of why those Leopards were lost can be found here: Leopard 2 in Syria

To sum up, there were two (2) reasons:

1. Leopard 2A4 versions were deployed
2. Poor operational deployment

On 1.), the Leopard 2 that were deployed at Al-Bab were the A4 versions. The fact of the matter is, not all Leopards are equal.

The latest A6 / A7 versions or various aftermarket upgrades from Rheinmetall, RUAG, etc could have been more survival against modern ATGM threats, but the ones sent to Al-Bab were bog standard ones from the 80s.

On 2.), they were deployed in fixed, hull down positions as a fire-support element. Speed is life, even for a tanker and that fixing your position like the Turks are asking for trouble.

More modern armor packages were introduced in the German Army variants in the late 1990s with the Leopard 2A5/2A6 and in 2014 with the Leopard 2A7. Furthermore a number of companies such as Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), Rheinmetall/IBD Deisenroth and RUAG are offering armor upgrades beyond the current Leopard 2A7, usually by mounting external armor modules at the front, sides, rear and roof. The protection can also be enhanced by adding a new softkill or hardkill active protection systems (APS). The MUSS softkill system has been tested on the Leopard 2 in 2003 and has been fielded on the Puma IFV. It is capable of jamming most missile systems and automatically hiding the tank behind a multi-spectral cloud of smoke, generated by firing special smoke grenade dischargers.

Why does this matter? Because the Turkish Leopard 2 tanks are older models upgraded to the 2A4 variant (easy to identify thanks to the old ammunition hatch) and not newer production vehicles, which were built with better armor packages. While KMW does offer upgrading the armor inserts to a newer generation - or at least the company did offer this option in the past - there are no reports about the Turkish Leopard 2A4 tanks being upgraded. As the Turkish Army wanted and tested the Leopard 2 Improved, it seems most likely that the original plan saw the upgrade of all purchased Leopard 2A4s to the Leopard 2A6 configuration at a later point of time, a plan probably stopped in favour of the Altay development.

 

[CrimsonFury]

Turks were cheated from GERMANY !


A detailed analysis of why those Leopards were lost can be found here: Leopard 2 in Syria

To sum up, there were two (2) reasons:

1. Leopard 2A4 versions were deployed
2. Poor operational deployment

On 1.), the Leopard 2 that were deployed at Al-Bab were the A4 versions. The fact of the matter is, not all Leopards are equal.

The latest A6 / A7 versions or various aftermarket upgrades from Rheinmetall, RUAG, etc could have been more survival against modern ATGM threats, but the ones sent to Al-Bab were bog standard ones from the 80s.

On 2.), they were deployed in fixed, hull down positions as a fire-support element. Speed is life, even for a tanker and that fixing your position like the Turks are asking for trouble.

More modern armor packages were introduced in the German Army variants in the late 1990s with the Leopard 2A5/2A6 and in 2014 with the Leopard 2A7. Furthermore a number of companies such as Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), Rheinmetall/IBD Deisenroth and RUAG are offering armor upgrades beyond the current Leopard 2A7, usually by mounting external armor modules at the front, sides, rear and roof. The protection can also be enhanced by adding a new softkill or hardkill active protection systems (APS). The MUSS softkill system has been tested on the Leopard 2 in 2003 and has been fielded on the Puma IFV. It is capable of jamming most missile systems and automatically hiding the tank behind a multi-spectral cloud of smoke, generated by firing special smoke grenade dischargers.

Why does this matter? Because the Turkish Leopard 2 tanks are older models upgraded to the 2A4 variant (easy to identify thanks to the old ammunition hatch) and not newer production vehicles, which were built with better armor packages. While KMW does offer upgrading the armor inserts to a newer generation - or at least the company did offer this option in the past - there are no reports about the Turkish Leopard 2A4 tanks being upgraded. As the Turkish Army wanted and tested the Leopard 2 Improved, it seems most likely that the original plan saw the upgrade of all purchased Leopard 2A4s to the Leopard 2A6 configuration at a later point of time, a plan probably stopped in favour of the Altay development.

What did you expect ? Being treated with respect by an EU country ? Especially one that harbors many leaders of of multiple terror organizations and actively tries to hinder your struggle against Them ? Wake up mate, it's sink or swim

 

[Killuminati]

M60T way better than German Leopard A2

 

[Admiral444]

Read my post about Leo 2 A4 , then think twice please.

snafu-solomon /2016/12/turkish-armored-vehicle-losses-in-syria.html




Sabra vs Leo ?

How many Leo's and how many Sabras do we have in Syria? The number of Leo's outnumber the number of Sabras. Of course more will be hit and damaged, and yes no one denies the fact that the M60T Sabra has better armour than the Leopard 2A4, but the Leopard 2A4 is not as bad as you claim it to be.

people have been claiming we have lost Bzaah, jets bombarding Bzaah atm. Firefights in the town.