Turkish Defense Industry by 2030 - catch up with the UK , France and Germany

[Akritas]

It is the first prototype - the manufacturing process will mature and all these issues will resolve themselves when the final "production jigs" are created with the final manufacturing tolerances - versus how this was constructed..

You mentioned the magic word: it's a prototype. This means that its development still has a long way to go, let alone going into production. That it flies with Ukrainian engines, designed in the 60s is a serious drawback. Also, the fact that it is supposed to be stealth should cover the big problem of covering the missiles inside the fuselage.
Finally, countries with a long history in aviation technology and development, it took at least 10 years to reach the final form of the aircraft they designed, which does not mean that it was ready for mass production.

 

[Foinikas]

Like a site said in a recent article:

"The requirements of a program to design, develop and mass produce an aircraft such as the Kizilelma are significantly greater and far more complex than the corresponding procedures for an aircraft such as the Bayraktar piston carrier, or even the Akinci twin-engine turboprop. If the (six months) time gap between the ground movement tests (taxi trials) from the first flight of the South Korean KAI KF-21 Boramae fighter aircraft is not observed, the case is further complicated, since the "taxi trials" of Kizilelma took place in late November. Six months is one thing and one month is another,despite the fact that these are completely different aircraft.

In no way do we underestimate the potential of the Turkish industry and especially Baykar. As we do not underestimate the huge need to find sources of financing and export users of Kizilelma, but also companies outside Turkey that will help in the development of critical systems of..."

 

[MMM-E]

You mentioned the magic word: it's a prototype. This means that its development still has a long way to go, let alone going into production.

Mass production in 2023
because Turkish Air Force urgently needs KIZILELMA
and BAYKAR has production capability of 72 KIZILELMA in 2 years


but there will be 3 variant of KIZILELMA in the next years

Speed of mach 0,6 with AI-25TLT turbofan engine
Speed of mach 1.35 with AI-322F turbofan engine
Speed of mach 2 with twin engined variant


AESA RADAR - EOTS

Aselsan MURAD GaN based AESA Radar with 1.000 T/R modules
Aselsan will deliver MURAD AESA Radar to BAYKAR in the next month

AKINCI UCAV also will be equipped with MURAD AESA Radar

WEAPONS


150-280 km CAKIR and SOM Cruise Missiles .. land attack and anti-ship capabilities
180+ KUZGUN-TJ Missile

SOM in service , CAKIR and KUZGUN-TJ in 2023

Air to Air Missiles
25 km BOZDOGAN
100+ km GOKDOGAN
RAMJET powered long range GOKHAN air to air missile which is similar to METEOR

100+ km GOKDOGAN air to air missile enter service in 2023 ...
( speed of mach 4 .. two way datalink )

Basic Flight Performance Criteria

• 500 Nm Combat Radius
• 35.000 Feet Operational Altitude
• 5 Hours Endurance
• 6 Tons Maximum Take-Off Weight
• 0.6 - 1,35 Mach Cruise Speed
• 1.5 Tons Payload Capacity

Advanced Features

• Fully Autonomous Take Off and Landing
• Low RCS
• Internal weapon bay for stealth flight capability
• High Maneuverability
• Smart fleet autonomy equipped with artificial intelligence
• LOS and BLOS ( SATCOM )
• Take Off and Landing Capability from Short-Runway Aircraft Carriers
• High Situational Awareness with AESA Radar , EOTS

 

[Ali_Baba]

You mentioned the magic word: it's a prototype. This means that its development still has a long way to go, let alone going into production. That it flies with Ukrainian engines, designed in the 60s is a serious drawback. Also, the fact that it is supposed to be stealth should cover the big problem of covering the missiles inside the fuselage.
Finally, countries with a long history in aviation technology and development, it took at least 10 years to reach the final form of the aircraft they designed, which does not mean that it was ready for mass production.

Yes - it is a prototype - but the Turks seems to be moving quickly from prototype to production in a large number of their aviation programmes - there is a sense of urgency in their desire that does not exist in western military programmes - so using historical conventions delivery timeframes of alternative western programmes as a guide of how fast this programme will proceed, is a mistake.

 

[Akritas]

Yes - it is a prototype - but the Turks seems to be moving quickly from prototype to production in a large number of their aviation programmes - there is a sense of urgency in their desire that does not exist in western military programmes - so using historical conventions delivery timeframes of alternative western programmes as a guide of how fast this programme will proceed, is a mistake.

Talking to aeronautical engineers, they pointed out to me the following: the difference between the prototype and the experimental is as much as the difference between a bicycle and a motocycle. That is, both are two-wheelers(cycle), have steering and braking system, but they differ in two things: the propulsion system and the load it can carry.
This changes everything.

 

[Foinikas]

Yes - it is a prototype - but the Turks seems to be moving quickly from prototype to production in a large number of their aviation programmes - there is a sense of urgency in their desire that does not exist in western military programmes - so using historical conventions delivery timeframes of alternative western programmes as a guide of how fast this programme will proceed, is a mistake.

Yes,but isn't that weird? You see countries like USA,France,China,South Korea taking months to years between stages. So how can the Turkish industry rush it up in a few months and still have a quality product?

 

[Ali_Baba]

Yes,but isn't that weird? You see countries like USA,France,China,South Korea taking months to years between stages. So how can the Turkish industry rush it up in a few months and still have a quality product?

Turkey is not starting from scratch - they have most of the infrastructure they need via collaboration with western companies and TOT arrangements. They developed most of the core technology before they went down the route of building their own platforms. Turkey has had access to far more technology that Russia or China has and has not had to develop everything from scratch either. Turkey also has an excellent university system to help support these programmes aswell both for core R&D and also creating world class engineers( i have hired a few turk engineers here in the UK - and there education standard is top notch). The only difference between then, and now - is the pool of trained engineers who are designing platforms and testing/certifying them.

TB2 seems to be working very well and it was "developed" very fast aswell - and results matter and speak for themselves.

They may run into issues with the TFX - given its complexity - but then they have massively derisked that programme with the recent test of the FBW that TFX requires by having a successful test drive of the Kizilelma itself. Developing an unstable FBW is a massive task - and they seemed to have taken the first successful step in developing their own version. They have derisked the airframe by working with BAe on some of its concepts. Turkey are leveraging their local resources and forming partnerships where required and appropriate. Turkey has been building F16s locally with a significant local content, and they have had access to the F16 source code for their versions, allowing their engineers to learn how to build such a software platform...

The only risk remaining with the TFX is the propulsion - but for now that is solved issue for the prototype. The final engine has "plans" but there are significant risks in that space.

These new Turkish systems will take time to mature and debug - but that is the nature of these types of platforms and everyone(inc Pakistan who is buying them) is aware of that.

JMust look at SpaceX !!!! How much did they know about building rockets when they started? Fail fast - fail often was their approach and learn at each cycle. It is a strategy that pushed aside the dogma that surrounded NASA development projects and now SpaceX has established a first of reuseable rockets that land successfully after land, virtually all the time. A market leader in its own right.

Turks will be fine ...

 

[Foinikas]

Turkey is not starting from scratch - they have most of the infrastructure they need via collaboration with western companies and TOT arrangements. They developed most of the core technology before they went down the route of building their own platforms.

Don't let MMM-E hear that....he'll go berserk on you

TB2 seems to be working very well - and results matter and speak for themselves.

TB2 is a different project. It's much more simple,if you can say. I mean,their ambition is to make a 5th generation UNMANNED stealth fighter with crazy abilities. And then a 5th generation stealth fighter. And a gazillion other things at the same time.

 

[Ali_Baba]

TB2 is a different project. It's much more simple,if you can say. I mean,their ambition is to make a 5th generation UNMANNED stealth fighter with crazy abilities. And then a 5th generation stealth fighter. And a gazillion other things at the same time.

Yes - but it is a building block approach and the only new variable that Turkey is dealing with is the FBW for an unstable platform and hosting a jet engine inside one of their platforms. They are building each new block - conquering that block and then moving on.

It is beautiful approach and one that Pakistan should have followed - rather than pretending it could design 5th Gen stealth - eg Azm inside Pakistan, with no history of any other plane designed in Pakistan - ever.

India is very clumsy in her approach and has gone about it "backwards" but they have paid their price and now seem to be moving forward - albeit it - v.v.v. slowly...

 

[Foinikas]

t is beautiful approach and one that Pakistan should have followed - rather than pretending it could design 5th Gen stealth - eg Azm inside Pakistan, with no history of any other plane designed in Pakistan - ever.

No idea why Pakistan hasn't done that decades now.

 

[Ali_Baba]

No idea why Pakistan hasn't done that decades now.

Because Pakistan is not a democracy but is infact "a Pakistan Army Mafia state" where intellectual capital is not valued but thuggish brutish corruption promoted by the Pakistani Army and it control of the Pakistan political scene where it looks to reinforce those same values to reinforce and maintain is control over Pakistan ...

 

[MMM-E]

Turkey is not starting from scratch - they have most of the infrastructure they need via collaboration with western companies and TOT arrangements.

Its not secret , some weapons via collaboration with western-eastnern companies and TOT arrangements

YILDIRIM Ballistic Missile , T122 , T300 MLRS from China
ALTAY Tank with S.Korea
T-155 Howitzer with S.Korea
T-129 Attack Helicopter with Italy
TCG ANADOLU amphibious assault Ship with Spain

and Turkiye learned many things from under license production
but under license production is not TOT ... ( F-16 , Sikorsky S70 , MEKO-200 , Type214 Submarine , etc )


Turkiye itself has developed/develops hundreds of military projects
Nobody gives critical technologies to Turkiye
Our NATO allies even use arms embargo on Turkiye

Turkiye has 757 military projects
-- Turboshaft and Turbofan Engines to power T-929 heavy attack Helicopter ,
TFX Fighter Jet , KIZILELMA unmanned stealth Fighter Jet , TISU unmanned stealth Bomber

-- Unmanned technologies ( UCAVs , UGV , unmanned Vessels , unmanned Submarine )
-- Single mode LASER Weapons
-- Hypersonic Electromagnetic Rail Guns
-- Corvette , OPV , FAC , Frigate , Destroyer , AIP Submarine
-- Replenishment Combat Support Ship , MOSHİP , LCT , LST
-- TRNV global positioning and timing system

-- RAMJET , SCRAMJET for supersonic-hypersonic missiles
-- RAMJET powered GOKHAN long range air to air Missile
-- Supersonic decoy Drone

-- SOM , ATMACA , CAKIR , KUZGUN-TJ , GEZGIN Cruise Missiles
-- TAYFUN , CENK Ballistic Missiles
-- AKBABA anti-radiation Missile
-- BOZDOGAN and GOKDOGAN Air to Air Missiles
-- KORKUT , SUNGUR , HISAR-A , HISAR-O , SIPER Air Defense Systems

--Radars in bands of VHF, UHF, S, L, C, X, Ku, Ka and even W band
-- Quantum well infrared photodetectors ( HgCdTe , QWIP, InSb , InGaAs )
-- Multilayer microwave ceramic technology
-- Microbolometer-type infrared detector sets
-- Uncooled short wavelength infrared detector sets
-- High Success Multi Precessor CPU Card
-- Video processor chip
-- Engines for AFV , UCAVs , Cruise Missiles
-- Next Generation Combat Management System
-- VLS Vertical Launch System

-- EW technologies
-- GaN based AESA Radars
-- long range guided Bombs to hit even moving targets
-- Anti-radiation and Kamikaze Drones
-- Satellites
-- 20-35 mm CIWS
-- 76 mm naval Gun
-- ATGMs
-- MANPADS
-- E/O Systems
-- Targeting and Jamming Pods
-- Lght and heavy Torpedos
-- Soft-kill and hard-kill counter- measure against Torpedo
-- HELMET for Attack Helicopters and Fighter Jets

and our future
-- Hypersonic glide vehicle (HGV) for Ballistic Missiles
-- Anti gravity technology
-- Big Data, Artificial Intelligence, Autonomy, Robotic Systems and Decision Support Systems (Aselsan exclusive BYORK project )

And many more


Thanks to ASELSAN , HAVELSAN , ROKETSAN , METEKSAN , TAI , TEI , STM , TUBITAK-SAGE , etc which were established after American arms embargo on Turkiye in 1975

 

[MMM-E]

Because Pakistan is not a democracy but is infact "a Pakistan Army Mafia state" where intellectual capital is not valued but thuggish brutish corruption promoted by the Pakistani Army and it control of the Pakistan political scene where it looks to reinforce those same values to reinforce and maintain is control over Pakistan ...

Turkiye produced even Aircraft in 1936-1944
but pro-American politicans blocked Turkish Defense Industry in 1940s-1950s

Thanks to President ERDOGAN who supported Turkish Defense Industry to increase military projects from 62 to 757 between 2003 and 2022


Turkiye has started developing national defense industry after American arms embargo on Turkiye in 1975
but all major Turkish military projects have been developed in the last 20 years led by ERDOGAN

If ERDOGAN had not provided this support to Turkish Defense Industry since 2003,
Turkiye would not even have a national rifle now

 

[Ali_Baba]

Don't let MMM-E hear that....he'll go berserk on you

errmmm - you were right on that one it seems - lol

 

[MMM-E]

errmmm - you were right on that one it seems - lol

if you know nothing about Turkish military , stop babbling

You are playing dirty game with Foinikas here for defamation Turkish defense industry

Turkey is not starting from scratch - they have most of the infrastructure they need via collaboration with western companies and TOT arrangements.

Prove it or stop lying

only 2 projects are with western companies
T-129 Attack Helicopter with Italy
TCG ANADOLU amphibious assault Ship with Spain

nothing else .. under license production is not TOT

Only one example
USA-France even dont sale PATRIOT , SAMP-T AD Systems to Turkiye

Turkiye itself has developed HISAR-A , HISAR-O , SIPER low-medium-high altitude AD Systems with 460+ km ERALP GaN based AESA Radar

And Turkiye was become 7th country in the world that developed low-medium-high altitude AD Systems

USA
Russia
China
France
Turkiye
Israel
İran
and India on the way