Turkish Air Force (HVKK)

[LegionnairE]

but he has a POINT

no he doesn't, his era is over, nobody can afford producing different planes for all kinds of different roles anymore not even the US. Economy has changed, planes got more expensive with the technology.

 

[era_shield]

F35 and TFX both being multi-role fighters, both made to replace F16, what are we going to do with two planes that essentially do the same thing? Hellenic airforce made the same mistake in investing in both F16 and Mirage 2000s it only complicates things, makes you a less efficient air force. And that's the best case scenario, that's assuming we can manage to make a slightly better plane than F35.

There's already a better engine that is called F119... if we were diplomatic enough we could get it, it has everything we need and even don't need... like thrust vectoring.

The F-35 does only a couple of things well (and even then, not that well). It's only really useful on carriers (and even then, only partially capable of what carrier jets need to do) and for bombing (and even, it can't carry much). To replace all jets with it would be massively stupid. To gamble a country's entire air defence on the idea that only BVR combat will happen in the future would also be massively stupid (a bet the US made in the 70s and which they lost, and learnt the hard way that WVR combat will always be needed). TuAF is smart enough to use the F-35 to replace the F-4 (a job it does reasonably well) and will use the TFX as a replacement and expansion of capabilities of the F-16.

About the F119 engine: the US wouldn't give it over, and if they did they wouldn't allow exports, plus the manufacturing line is already gone so it would be super expensive.

 

[LegionnairE]

The F-35 does only a couple of things well (and even then, not that well). It's only really useful on carriers (and even then, only partially capable of what carrier jets need to do) and for bombing (and even, it can't carry much). To replace all jets with it would be massively stupid. To gamble a country's entire air defence on the idea that only BVR combat will happen in the future would also be massively stupid (a bet the US made in the 70s and which they lost, and learnt the hard way that WVR combat will always be needed). TuAF is smart enough to use the F-35 to replace the F-4 (a job it does reasonably well) and will use the TFX as a replacement and expansion of capabilities of the F-16.

I'm pretty sure F35 will be just as good as F16 in a dog fight... there's no reason why it shouldn't be. It's just not the main strength of the plane as I was trying to put it.

Yeah I know... funny you should say that, F4 was designed with the same mentality, initially it didn't even have a gun they thought long range missiles would end the need for a gun or any dogfighting capabilities at all

But I don't think that's the case with F35, It's a plane that flies well whereas F4 had the aerodynamics of a brick

About the F119 engine: the US wouldn't give it over, and if they did they wouldn't allow exports, plus the manufacturing line is already gone so it would be super expensive.

Then the british has to scale their engine up for us, to a larger diameter. Or we should buy the design and scale it up ourselves.... I can't think of any other alternatives.

Well, actually I do... cancelling the project. But nobody wants that

 

[era_shield]

I'm pretty sure F35 will be just as good as F16 in a dog fight... there's no reason why it shouldn't be. It's just not the main strength of the plane as I was trying to put it.

Yeah I know... funny you should say that, F4 was designed with the same mentality, initially it didn't even have a gun they thought long range missiles would end the need for a gun or any dogfighting capabilities at all

But I don't think that's the case with F35, It's a plane that flies well whereas F4 had the aerodynamics of a brick

The F-35 isn't even as agile as a heavily loaded F-16, much less a newer aircraft like the F-22. Heavily loaded F-16 vs F-35. They tried to do too much with one airframe and it has made the F-35 either mediocre or poor at most roles. They did this because they wanted it to be cheap, but they didn't even succeed in that. Turkey is in a good position here because the role the TuAF will be using it in is what the F-35 does best (relatively speaking).

Then the british has to scale their engine up for us, to a larger diameter. Or we should buy the design and scale it up ourselves.... I can't think of any other alternatives.

A lot of the design work for the EJ230 is already complete. I think they even tested a prototype. The EJ200 is one of the 2 candidate engines for the Korean KFX jet, by the way. Right now I don't think there are any roadblocks for the TFX's development.

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

Effectiveness: When the F-35 Lightning II is compared with the larger and more expensive F-22A, the Raptor is a much stealthier aircraft, and its stealth is more uniform. The F-35’s design is optimized for “low-observable” stealth when viewed from the front, with less stealth to radars looking at it from the sides, and less still when targeted from the rear. It also lacks the Raptor’s supercruise (sustained flight above Mach 1) and super-maneuverability thrust-vectoring options, which work with stealth to help the F-22 engage and disengage from combat at will. Lockheed Martin claims that the F-35 design is optimized for trans-sonic acceleration, but testing results question those claims, and the Raptor can cruise without afterburners at the F-35’s theoretical maximum speed. That’s important, because fuel usage skyrockets with afterburners on, limiting total supersonic time for fighters like the F-35.

These relative drawbacks have led to questions about the F-35’s ability to survive against the most modern aircraft and air defense threats, and against the evolved threats it can expect to face over a service lifetime that’s expected to stretch until 2050.

 

[LegionnairE]

The F-35 isn't even as agile as a heavily loaded F-16, much less a newer aircraft like the F-22. Heavily loaded F-16 vs F-35. They tried to do too much with one airframe and it has made the F-35 either mediocre or poor at most roles. They did this because they wanted it to be cheap, but they didn't even succeed in that. Turkey is in a good position here because the role the TuAF will be using it in is what the F-35 does best (relatively speaking).

Why should that be the case? much more advanced composite materials were used in F35, a much more powerful engine, remember that F135 was developed from F119, it's a scaled up version of it. Yeah F35 airframe is larger than F16's but the engine is equally larger and as a result the plane has a much longer range than F16, we'll be able to operate around Israel or Moscow without aerial refueling I think that's a big advantage.

As I have said, EJ200 series are too small for air superiority fighters, and it'd be stupidly inefficient to have two seperate multi-role fighters. If we won't cancel TFX we should cancel our orders on F35.

That money can be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Exocet]

bro, it's not and even if it was it wouldn't matter. It doesn't need to enter any dogfights.

It's purpose is to detect before getting detected and shoot the target with an AIM 120
it is for all intents and purposes a BVR plane

We never wanted an Su35-like plane anyway, we've always worked with multi-role fighters and we know what we're getting.

Mate, The problem is that you don't understand is F-35's opponents won't be Su-27 or Mig-29 forever. When the Sukhoi PAKFA and Shengyang J-20 became operational it won't be able shoot AIM-120 from 100+km. It will have to get close to them. This means a WVR-dogfight. This is the reason of the TFX program.

 

[LegionnairE]

Mate, The problem is that you don't understand is F-35's opponents won't be Su-27 or Mig-29 forever. When the Sukhoi PAKFA and Shengyang J-20 became operational it won't be able shoot AIM-120 from 100+km. It will have to get close to them. This means a WVR-dogfight. This is the reason of the TFX program.

mate, the problem is, you still don't understand that you can't build a T50 or J20 equivalent with the EJ200s

for fvcks sake

How did Turkey survive with F16s until today... we should be fvcked by Mig29s and Su27s
Because obviously by PDF logic multi-role fighters have no chance against air superiority fighters

You can't build a plane that weighs almost twice as F35 with the same amount of thrust

How many times do I have to explain this? Pak-Fa weighs 18 FUCKING TONS it's a bigger plane than F22 How are you going to lift that with tiny fucking EJ200s explain that shit to me

Yeah I can't undestand... I'm the stupid one in here

so far F35-F16,F18 engagements were made by inexperienced new F35 pilots and an incomplete plane. Just because a rookie F35 pilot got his arse handed over to himself by an experienced F16 pilot newspapers started claiming that F35 was shit at WVR engagements. I'm sorry, that's a premature statement.

 

[Exocet]

mate, the problem is, you still don't understand that you can't build a T50 or J20 equivalent with the EJ200s

for fvcks sake

How did Turkey survive with F16s until today... we should be fvcked by Mig29s and Su27s
Because obviously by PDF logic multi-role fighters have no chance against air superiority fighters

You can't build a plane that weighs almost twice as F35 with the same amount of thrust

How many times do I have to explain this? Pak-Fa weighs 18 FUCKING TONS it's a bigger plane than F22 How are you going to lift that with tiny fucking EJ200s explain that shit to me

Yeah I can't undestand... I'm the stupid one in here

so far F35-F16,F18 engagements were made by inexperienced new F35 pilots and an incomplete plane. Just because a rookie F35 pilot got his arse handed over to himself by an experienced F16 pilot newspapers started claiming that F35 was shit at WVR engagements. I'm sorry, that's a premature statement.

PAKFA MTOW is 38 tons.

Mate we won't use basic EJ200 this is said numerous times.

Mate F-16 can shotdown every single SU-27/30/35 Mig-29/35 without any dogfight. But problem of engaging a T-50 with a F-35 is that each plane won't see other one with their radar. So they need to get close each other. F-16 has no chance here. But good news is that F-35'S DAS system can detect a PAKFA before PAKFA detects it with it's own radar and ıf we think that our airforce is quite interested in network based warfare, F-35's sensors can direct TFX to hostile aircraft.

 

[LegionnairE]

PAKFA MTOW is 38 tons.

I'm talking about the dry weight, it's twice the F35 or EF2000... you'd need twin F135s for a plane that size

Mate we won't use basic EJ200 this is said numerous times.

have you ever seen a %100 thrust incerase between two versions of an aircraft engine? give me one example in the human history.

Mate F-16 can shotdown every single SU-27/30/35 Mig-29/35 without any dogfight. But problem of engaging a T-50 with a F-35 is that each plane won't see other one with their radar. So they need to get close each other. F-16 has no chance here. But good news is that F-35'S DAS system can detect a PAKFA before PAKFA detects it with it's own radar and ıf we think that our airforce is quite interested in network based warfare, F-35's sensors can direct TFX to hostile aircraft.

WHAT? NO!

they'll see each other on the radar once they get close enough for the radar cross sections to get big enough for the radars. RCS changes depending on which angle you're approaching the oher aircraft from and we don't know much about RAM materials on each plane to assess who's going to see whom first. But because T50 is a bigger airframe they'll need much more advanced and probably more expensive RAM to conceal it from radars. So my bet is that F35 is going to detect T50 before getting detected itself. And seeing from those nozzles, I bet that F35 will be able to still use it's AIM 120s in BVR if it can approach from sides or rear.

This is why I'm saying that we should cancel TFX for now. We need to use F35 for a while and assess it's weaknesses before we can advance to a better fighter. Right now with the current engine selection it's nothing but a waste of billions of dollars.

We can better spend that money somewhere else... we could develop a heavy lift helicopter with the experience we've got from the T129. We need that much more than we need two multi role fighters in our inventory.


Having two types of them completely defeats the purpose of a multi-role fighter.

also @gambit where are you?

 

[era_shield]

I'm talking about the dry weight, it's twice the F35 or EF2000... you'd need twin F135s for a plane that size
have you ever seen a %100 thrust incerase between two versions of an aircraft engine? give me one example in the human history.


WHAT? NO!

they'll see each other on the radar once they get close enough for the radar cross sections to get big enough for the radars. RCS changes depending on which angle you're approaching the oher aircraft from and we don't know much about RAM materials on each plane to assess who's going to see whom first. But because T50 is a bigger airframe they'll need much more advanced and probably more expensive RAM to conceal it from radars. So my bet is that F35 is going to detect T50 before getting detected itself. And seeing from those nozzles, I bet that F35 will be able to still use it's AIM 120s in BVR if it can approach from sides or rear.

This is why I'm saying that we should cancel TFX for now. We need to use F35 for a while and assess it's weaknesses before we can advance to a better fighter. Right now with the current engine selection it's nothing but a waste of billions of dollars.

We can better spend that money somewhere else... we could develop a heavy lift helicopter with the experience we've got from the T129. We need that much more than we need two multi role fighters in our inventory.


Having two types of them completely defeats the purpose of a multi-role fighter.

also @gambit where are you?

There's so many misconceptions in this post I don't even know where to start.

You're talking like the EJ200 is a useless engine which powers toy airplanes. Do you realise that the Typhoon already uses the EJ200? Its MTOW is 24t. The TFX's projected MTOW is about 27t - if the EJ230 has 30% more thrust than the EJ200, this means the TFX will have even higher thrust/weight than the Typhoon does. The KFX will also use the same engine or a very similar one.

Do you understand how stupid it is for a stealth aircraft to turn on its radar in a war? LPI or not, unless it wants to broadcast its position to everyone, it would need to use passive sensors only or radar data from another source. Yes, RCS usually increases from the side - but how are you going to approach a stealth jet from the side if you don't know where it is? Also, some jets are designed to have all-aspect stealth, like the F-22. Even if you approached it from the side you wouldn't gain much advantage in terms of radar visibility. The F-35 is only stealthy from the frontal aspect.

For a stealth aircraft, the size of the airframe has very little to do with RCS - the stealthiest known aircraft is the B-2, and it's also by far the biggest. For stealth aircraft, airframe size affects IR signature, not RCS.

Lastly, it's been explained to you numerous times that the F-35 can't perform the roles the TFX will perform. Being multi-role doesn't mean it performs every possible role and does it well.

Holy sh1t dude, it's like you have an information force field around you.

 

[LegionnairE]

There's so many misconceptions in this post I don't even know where to start.

You're talking like the EJ200 is a useless engine which powers toy airplanes. Do you realise that the Typhoon already uses the EJ200? Its MTOW is 24t. The TFX's projected MTOW is about 27t - if the EJ230 has 30% more thrust than the EJ200, this means the TFX will have even higher thrust/weight than the Typhoon does. The KFX will also use the same engine or a very similar one.

There goes your air superiority fighter... F15's MTOW is about 30 tons probably higher with F110-GE400, with F22 that number is 38 tons so it shares the same maximum take off weight with T50 despite being a lighter build

%30 is a big jump but even if they can make it, it's not enough. You'll have to choose between a larger airframe and longer range build or you're going to try to make it lighter and faster so you can have that Mach 1.5 supercruise... you won't have both.

LPI or not, unless it wants to broadcast its position to everyone, it would need to use passive sensors only or radar data from another source.

How fortunate it is that we have that source... lol

Yes, RCS usually increases from the side - but how are you going to approach a stealth jet from the side if you don't know where it is? Also, some jets are designed to have all-aspect stealth, like the F-22. Even if you approached it from the side you wouldn't gain much advantage in terms of radar visibility. The F-35 is only stealthy from the frontal aspect.

We won't be fighting against F22s in a forseeable fuıture and I'm pretty sure that F35 will be less visible on radars than the T50... it's the Ruskies first attempt to make a stealth jet and it's a huge airframe to hide.

nevermind the suspiciously low unit cost... official Russian estimates are 50 million dollars a plane... that's cheaper than an F16's FMS price That gets me suspicious as fvck.

For a stealth aircraft, the size of the airframe has very little to do with RCS - the stealthiest known aircraft is the B-2, and it's also by far the biggest. For stealth aircraft, airframe size affects IR signature, not RCS.

There are more surfaces that could reflect radar waves therefore there's more of a chance that they do. Size has to have an effect albeit small... RAM is much more important though.

Lastly, it's been explained to you numerous times that the F-35 can't perform the roles the TFX will perform. Being multi-role doesn't mean it performs every possible role and does it well.

That's not enough...

R&D of this plane won't be even remotely close to cheap
this is why I'm being so hard about this.

after TFX there's a good chance we won't have such a project in the next 30-40 years.
we can time it better. 10 years later we'll have tons of experience with F35 and we'll better know what we need.

There might even be the possibility of building this plane around nationally developed engines in that case we could export it to Azerbaijan and our other allies without the need of a foreign permission.

 

[IronEagle]

Don't worry guys F35 will rule the skies

 

[era_shield]

How fortunate it is that we have that source... lol

And guess what happens when you have 2 sides with stealth fighters with their radars off and who are both relying on an AWACS a safe distance away? The AWACS can't see the enemy stealth jets until they're close enough to friendly units to be a danger. And guess what else happens in an environment where you're trying to maintain stealth? IFF becomes almost impossible. In the end, you need to have the ability to engage in WVR combat and do it well. The Russians understand this, the Chinese understand this, TuAF understand this, just about everyone understands this except you and other people who just regurgitate mass media myths.

We won't be fighting against F22s in a forseeable fuıture and I'm pretty sure that F35 will be less visible on radars than the T50... it's the Ruskies first attempt to make a stealth jet and it's a huge airframe to hide.

Evidently what I just said about airframe size not being important for RCS was repelled by your information force field.

There are more surfaces that could reflect radar waves therefore there's more of a chance that they do. Size has to have an effect albeit small... RAM is much more important though.

No, that's wrong. Geometry and structure are the most important part of stealth. RAM is a small part, around 10%. Airframe size has practically no effect.

That's not enough...

According to the TuAF and everyone who knows what they're talking about, it is.

after TFX there's a good chance we won't have such a project in the next 30-40 years.
we can time it better. 10 years later we'll have tons of experience with F35 and we'll better know what we need.

If development starts in 10 years that means the jet will go into service about 2040. The way things are going in the ME, this jet is needed ASAP, not in 2040.

 

[LegionnairE]

And guess what happens when you have 2 sides with stealth fighters with their radars off and who are both relying on an AWACS a safe distance away? The AWACS can't see the enemy stealth jets until they're close enough to friendly units to be a danger. And guess what else happens in an environment where you're trying to maintain stealth? IFF becomes almost impossible. In the end, you need to have the ability to engage in WVR combat and do it well. The Russians understand this, the Chinese understand this, TuAF understand this, just about everyone understands this except you and other people who just regurgitate mass media myths.

to me it'll be more down to which side's AWACS is better or closer to the engagement.... your idea for the stealth to make the radar guided missiles obsolete is misguided

on the contrary due to developing network based warfare capabilities on all sides AIM 120s are going to have even more use in the future. I also doubt that anyone would go on an air superiority mission with his radar closed.. that may only happen in deep strike missions. People will rely on AESA radars for their improbability to be detected.

at least until someone makes an air-to-air version of AGM88

Evidently what I just said about airframe size not being important for RCS was repelled by your information force field.

Even if it had zero effect, incerased surface would mean more RAM which in turn would mean higher costs. That's why the surprisingly low unit cost of T50 makes me suspicious about the quality of the RAM used on it.

No, that's wrong. Geometry and structure are the most important part of stealth. RAM is a small part, around 10%. Airframe size has practically no effect.

it is RAM that makes most of the difference between F22 and F35... if F22 has an edge it's due to the more expensive materials.

According to the TuAF and everyone who knows what they're talking about, it is.

I doubt that TurAF is dying for this, we've been offered EF2000s for I can't remember how many times over the years and we've rejected it all the time.

I'm afraid that people are way too excited about us making our own plane.
I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm saying they are acting hastily.

If development starts in 10 years that means the jet will go into service about 2040. The way things are going in the ME, this jet is needed ASAP, not in 2040.

dude... if we start 10 years later and finish it by 2040 than it means if we start now we'll finish by 2030 and who's to say that we won't be better prepared by 2025 for the undertaking of such a project?

I understand that you're excited but please use your brain, this is not an emergency stop-gap project

If we want, we can buy more F35s in an emergency... We have bigger needs, we don't have a single heavy lift helicopter in the TAF. We could develop that.

at the end a proper air superiority craft would be much more useful, it'd have longer range, more endurance and overall better performance across the board.