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Turkey’s S-400 vs F-35 dilemma in 2019

F-35 vs S-400; If Turkey had to choose one, which one should it choose?

  • F-35

  • S-400


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Israel's power over the US is way beyond simply having a strong Jewish "lobby". They are all rich and powerful US citizens. They control the Fed and US banks, the NYSE, the Pentagon, the Congress (both the house and the senate), Supreme Court, all the mainstream newspapers, TV channels and media companies, Hollywood, silicon valley, you name it. Long story short, they OWN America and there's next to nothing the goyim americans can do about it.
Of course everyone knows about that. But don't forget, It was first the Armenians and Greeks who started the lobby activities. We could've very well repressed that. I'm not trying to compare our lobby(!) with Israel.
By the way @ÇölKaplanı , who's going to change policy in three years? US or Turkey? Or what is going to boost our chance in three years?
It's well known that Erdogan would lost if there was an election today. Our relations won't be like this for always. They put an embargo on us in 1974 but still we went on and bought the F-16s afterwards. If you've said someone in 2015 that US won't be giving F-35s to Turkey, they would've laughed at you. But now, we are discussing about if we still have a chance to get them. This is the reality, things change over time.
 
It's well known that Erdogan would lost if there was an election today. Our relations won't be like this for always. They put an embargo on us in 1974 but still we went on and bought the F-16s afterwards. If you've said someone in 2015 that US won't be giving F-35s to Turkey, they would've laughed at you. But now, we are discussing about if we still have a chance to get them. This is the reality, things change over time.
It doesn’t matter which political party would win in 3 years or now it matters what security apparatus or call them “turkish deep state” want
I think that Turkey will continue with the current foreign policy(militaristic aggressive foreign stance) because there’s no other say to protect turkish national interests if the new government(formed by any party) tries to take more liberal stance towards critical issues I can bet that “the deep state” will force them to go back with current policy otherwise there will be soft coup
 
Chances of VTOL jets on TCG Anadolu are 0%, it will end up as helicopter carrier maybe some UAV's.

Also one of the reasons why TCG Trakya was cancelled.
You hit the nail right on the head. I don't get it, when it's appearent we won't be getting F-35s; people are starting to expect a VTOL new generation Harrier from a training-Light Combat Aircraft. It's very likely that we will see helis instead of jets on TCG Anadolu.
 
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FFS 3 years ago we were arch enemies with Russia but now we are besties with them. What changed then?
There is an obvious answer which is the ''unconditional'' support from the US for the YPG/PKK in Syria.
It was supposed to be a deterence act against that support but it didnt work so both the US and Russia are using us like a playball(a toy).
From now on it doesnt matter which kind of government or parties come to power,we'll still be pushed around unless we become totally independent on foreign military systems which includes engines(jet,turboshaft etc) or somehow get our own nukes(indigenous preferably).
That again leaves the economic vulnerability we are facing,no need to explain any further.
So either way we are fvcked for a long long time.
 
Israel's power over the US is way beyond simply having a strong Jewish "lobby". They are all rich and powerful US citizens. They control the Fed and US banks, the NYSE, the Pentagon, the Congress (both the house and the senate), Supreme Court, all the mainstream newspapers, TV channels and media companies, Hollywood, silicon valley, you name it. Long story short, they OWN America and there's next to nothing the goyim americans can do about it.
BTW Americans are OK with that and in fact most of aid Israel get are from american evangelic citizens not the government... all combined some can assume there is no difference between USA and Israel.
 
I agree with everything you said, Of course our foreign polcy wouldn't change for a long time. But I did not stated any political party-I just said that AKP is not as strong as they were- ama bu troll adam gibi tartışmak yerine hemen çamura yatıyor. Adam gibi saygı çerçeveleri içerisinde yazsın, başımın üstünde yeri var; ama o çocuk gibi çamura yatmayı seçti.
I understand you that’s why I’m refraining from going into discussion with people who have ideological issues when you give legitimate criticism about their favorite politicians/parties’ mistakes they attack you
About F-35s I think they will arrive in Turkey in 4-5 years when turkish long range SAM would be ready for use regardless of political situation S400 would remain for testing purposes probably but not for active use so that americans are appeased
 
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I agree with everything you said, Of course our foreign polcy wouldn't change for a long time. But I did not stated any political party-I just said that AKP is not as strong as they were- ama bu troll adam gibi tartışmak yerine hemen çamura yatıyor. Adam gibi saygı çerçeveleri içerisinde yazsın, başımın üstünde yeri var; ama o çocuk gibi çamura yatmayı seçti.

@cabatli_53

Should I take matters into my own hands?
 
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but we don't!

yes we dont have lobbies:

we have only traitors like this:
bwBHcZau_400x400.jpg


they prefer this kind of people you cant lobby, you simply dont come into positons


they only choose loyal people for them for me the one above and the others alike are the worst of the worst
I stop here and deleted my further description of those filth..

also our people are very different lets be honest turkey is ethnically divided country and turks are a minority I give you an excample of the bitter reality -again deleted by myself- :

in our town our mosque had been attacked our youth wanted bloody revange and brake the bones of these people they would have gone beserk but shure they got back stebbed by the older ones (the turkish elders0 have an agreemend with the elders of kekos but here comes the humilation the kekos said we cant give guaranty for the youth).. you cant trust our people.. and I tell you if this would have been people from our part of turkey they would unite and fight back this is what they do in france if something happens.. but with karadenizli and malatya adana makedonian izmirli and whatever softies you have to fear that this ppl will unite with your enemy and bring you to the police because you broke the nose of someone and add others fantasies into it to make it worser :)

this does not mean the kekos of germany are to each other best friends they hate each other and could kill each other but they unite against us..
 
Aynen, çamura yat. Madem bizim fikirlerimiz birşey değiştirmez, neden buralarda takılıyoruz o zaman? Zaten kim sana dedi ki kuvvet bizi dikkate alacak?
Here is another post of him in Turkish, where he started all that by violating forum rules. Would you mind removing that as well? I wasn't rude in my previous post to get such response. Thanks.

@cabatli_53

Here you go.
 
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Turkey lost F35 but operates over 250 x F16

they picked S400 and Russia is not their friend

they arrested a US Pastor and then released him

they want to hold Europe hostage with refugees and still want to be part of Europe

Turkey in last few years has very very confusing

what Turkey needs is a strategy a game plan a mission and stick to it

it has enough resources the military is indigenising and economy well its up and down due its bad foreign policy

its 2020 and I remember thinking in 2005 that by 2020 Turkey will probably be a mini-superpower
 
Turkey lost F35 but operates over 250 x F16

they picked S400 and Russia is not their friend

they arrested a US Pastor and then released him

they want to hold Europe hostage with refugees and still want to be part of Europe

Turkey in last few years has very very confusing

what Turkey needs is a strategy a game plan a mission and stick to it

it has enough resources the military is indigenising and economy well its up and down due its bad foreign policy

its 2020 and I remember thinking in 2005 that by 2020 Turkey will probably be a mini-superpower

Things arent that easy as u stated tho, here is a nice read which should clarify some things.

The Turkish Sonderweg: The New Turkey’s role in the global order


The overarching features of Turkey’s neo-nationalism are the cult of state worship, an evergreen suspicion of foreign enemies, and an emphasis on the central role of a strong leader.

Right in front of Istanbul’s brand-new airport, which opened in April 2019 and is one of the largest in the world, stands a mosque. Until a few months ago, a huge poster of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan – which read: “We are building the New Turkey” – stood at its entrance.

But what is the New Turkey? Since 2014, the supporters of the Turkish president have been using the term as the antithesis of what they regard as an elitist, pro-Western regime – a shorthand for the rebirth of a nation under Erdogan’s gaze. Yet there is more to it than simply a negation of Turkey’s former political culture. The New Turkey is also a forward-looking project to expand the country’s global role in the twenty-first century. In a multipolar world marked by geopolitical competition, Erdogan’s Turkey wants to be a standalone power with a foot in each camp.

Neither east nor west, transatlanticist nor Eurasianist – Turkey’s current leaders hope to forge a non-aligned power on the periphery of Europe. The project is helped by the decline of the Western liberal order and US President Donald Trump’s disregard for the multilateral institutions that Turkey has been a part of for decades. In this self-centred world, Turkey’s fears and ambitions converge on an evitable outcome. With the rise of Turkish nationalism and an increasingly assertive foreign policy, Turkey is pursuing its Sonderweg (special path).

Sonderweg is a term typically used in reference to Germany – and there is always a danger in borrowing an expression from another country’s history. But this can also be useful. Historians have used Sonderweg to refer to the dilemmas Germany has wrestled at various times in its modern history – and to underline its revisionist impulses during these periods. Turkey’s own circumstances and history are, of course, unique. But the idea that Turkey’s interests are better served through a non-aligned path; the notion that Turkey is destined to be a great power; and the self-conscious effort to differentiate Turkey from others in its region are all themes that echo the debate on German history.

The prevailing sense in Ankara is that Turkey’s external engagements in Libya and Syria, and its military footprint elsewhere in the Middle East, are a necessity, if not a part of its destiny

This is not to suggest that Turkey’s Sonderweg will replicate Germany’s. Turkey will have its own course. The overarching features of the country’s neo-nationalism are the cult of state worship, an evergreen suspicion of foreign enemies, and an emphasis on the central role of a strong leader – championed by Erdogan’s supporters as a necessity for the survival of the state. Erdogan is not exclusively nationalist, Ottomanist, or Islamist – he is a mixture of all these things. But Ottomanism is central to Turkey’s Sonderweg in that the conservative rulers of modern Turkey want to constantly remind the nation of a glorified past, whether in new television dramas or in theme parks, and to promise a golden future.

Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party (AKP) laid the ideological foundations of the concept early in its 18-year reign. In his seminal work Stratejik Derinlik (Strategic Depth), former Turkish prime minister Ahmet Davutoglu advocated a kind of Turkish Sonderweg – arguing that, to fulfil its historical destiny and emerge as a global superpower, Turkey would need to complement its Western orientation with deeper involvement in the Middle East and the Balkans. While Davutoglu has left office, his approach remains the guiding principle for the cadres that run Turkish foreign policy in Africa, the Balkans, and the Middle East. Turkey no longer seems willing to contract out its neighbourhood policy to transatlantic institutions or the European Union. The cold war deal no longer works.

The failed coup attempt of 2016 and Turkish perceptions of the West’s culpability in the plot significantly changed the calculus in Ankara. When Turkey’s current leaders look around, they see an increasingly Hobbesian world full of hostile powers, in which Turkey is a lone wolf. The prevailing sentiment among Erdogan and his bureaucrats is that Turkey will work with the West or work around it in a fierce geopolitical competition.

But how far can Turkey go in that direction? What is the country’s capacity to exert influence beyond its borders? As big as it can manage, it seems. The prevailing sense in Ankara is that Turkey’s external engagements in Libya and Syria, and its military footprint elsewhere in the Middle East and North Africa, are a necessity, if not a part of its destiny – but certainly not a liability. “Within half a century, even if we don’t end up witnessing it, Turkey will emerge as one of the strongest powers of the world, sailing into larger accomplishments,” Erdogan said in February 2020. “[Turkey will] be crowned with victories from Iraq to Syria – from the Eastern Mediterranean to other regions.”

Ankara’s confidence in its own path manifests in its quest for self-sufficiency in defence procurement and its desire to expand its military footprint in regional conflicts. Over the past few years, Turkey has increased its military capacity by opening bases in Qatar and Somalia, deploying troops to Libya, providing training in Sudan, and supporting Sunni militia groups in Syria. It has developed defence capabilities in flagship Turkish projects in various stages of development – such as Turkish-made tanks, missiles, sniper rifles, frigates, submarines, armoured vehicles, and, of course, drones. All this underlines Turkey’s goal of reducing its dependency on the outside world (mostly NATO allies) in defence procurement.

No doubt, Erdogan’s Turkey wants its place under the sun – and will pursue autonomous policies in the Balkans, Africa, and the Middle East. The idea that the West is in decline – and, therefore, Turkey should not bet on it – remains a major theme of Turkish politics. The New Turkey will be challenged by capacity issues and the glaring gap between its ambitions and true reach. But the strong ideological foundations of the New Turkey and the country’s historical experiences suggest that its Sonderweg is likely to outlast the Erdogan period.

A post-Erdogan Turkey may rekindle its relations with the West, but might find it difficult to become a member of the club. In the absence of a grand offer from the West, Turkey’s relationship with its traditional allies such as Europe and the United States will likely be transactional – and unpredictable. It is important that Turkey’s partners get used to a new reality in which there is not only cooperation but also conflict with Turkey. When constrained by its allies, the country will change the parameters of their relationship or go it alone, as it has in Syria and the Eastern Mediterranean.

Whether by choice or necessity, the New Turkey will try to pursue its Sonderweg.

A longer version of this piece was originally published by the Istanbul Policy Center-Sabanci University-Stiftung Mercator Initiative.

https://www.ecfr.eu/article/comment...rweg_the_new_turkeys_role_in_the_global_order
 
Here is another post of him in Turkish, where he started all that by violating forum rules. Would you mind removing that as well? I wasn't rude in my previous post to get such response. Thanks.

@cabatli_53
Why are you ignoring that rules violation by a certain member, who has been repeatedly warned by you? If you have done your job properly, none of these would have happend. @cabatli_53

This is why I am asking you should I take manners into my own hands? Don't say "here you go", do your job properly.
 
That is not true, with F-35B on TCG Anadolu Turkish Navy could... cover all it needs without being dependent on TuAF, reach many different conflicts which are not in range of TuAF (Somalia, Libya) and it's a Force Multiplier for the Navy.

A UAV is not able to carry the same amount of weapons, conduct difficult large scale oerations or show such kind of force projection over hostile airspace.
Short example in Libya Haftars whole Air Force would not exist anymore, TSK would gain air superiority and support GNA ground forces.

I dont see Turkey involving with F35 under any circumstances. Neither Government nor Army would want that Risk. Even though You are Right and It would give Turkish Navy immense Power in over sea operations. But This isn't realistic anymore.
 

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