Time to get Pakistan out of America's influence - China

[Icewolf]

Abhey ghado, Pakistan is getting money that it deserves... $50 billion in losses in WOT...

what dog will not be happy, its gettiing a friendy owner. luk how happy is this person proud to be a slave nation first USA now China. Pakistan needs money whoever will give it money it will dance for them....

Just like Indians were very happy when cruel Muslim leader was kicked off & nice owner called Britian was brought it

Atleast now, you could do slavery to the foreigners at your own will, maybe even for some money

 

[Screambowl]

not possible due to huge Pakistani diaspora living in USA and UK and along with that Parliament contains dual citizen members.

 

[Meengla]

Hmmm. Not sure what to make out of this. But China (and Chinese) must know that Pakistan and Pakistanis have soft corner for China for decades. Almost a blind faith. Which is, sort of, shameful considering how little the two countries really share viz a viz the sharing between India and Pakistan...but I digress.

If I were a Chinese thinker then I MUST know the value of a nation of 180+ million with a strong army, strategic location, and a China-friendly population. Also, Pakistan is, despite its current problem, not puny in the Islamic world because of its democracy, culture, military, large population, Islamist-population, and, yes, the nukes. The way Pakistan was able to bring 57 OIC countries to support Sri Lanka some months ago was not a small feat.

I have long thought that the Chinese and Pakistani top diplomats 'exchange views' regularly. And I have thought that the Chinese say, something like: Milk the cow (the USA) as much as possible till 2014 (or beyond). We will see what happens after that'.

As to those people lamenting China's non-role in 1971 Pak-India war: I don't think there are many Pakistanis who are even bothered by losing the E. Pakistan. So why should (or would) China in 1971? That, and the Indo-Soviet Treaty before 1971, are enough to give a perspective.

ALSO, let's not kids over selves about America's help to Pakistan. Pakistan has benefited greatly from American help. It was only after 2001 that there is this deep antagonism. Pakistan, in 1947, was a nation where thorns from trees were used as paperclips. America made Pakistan a formidable country.

In short, Pakistani planners have NEVER sold Pakistan as a 'client' state and never will.

 

[Screambowl]

Hmmm. Not sure what to make out of this. But China (and Chinese) must know that Pakistan and Pakistanis have soft corner for China for decades. Almost a blind faith. Which is, sort of, shameful considering how little the two countries really share viz a viz the sharing between India and Pakistan...but I digress.

If I were a Chinese thinker then I MUST know the value of a nation of 180+ million with a strong army, strategic location, and a China-friendly population. Also, Pakistan is, despite its current problem, not puny in the Islamic world because of its democracy, culture, military, large population, Islamist-population, and, yes, the nukes. The way Pakistan was able to bring 57 OIC countries to support Sri Lanka some months ago was not a small feat.

I have long thought that the Chinese and Pakistani top diplomats 'exchange views' regularly. And I have thought that the Chinese say, something like: Milk the cow (the USA) as much as possible till 2014 (or beyond). We will see what happens after that'.

As to those people lamenting China's non-role in 1971 Pak-India war: I don't think there are many Pakistanis who are even bothered by losing the E. Pakistan. So why should (or would) China in 1971? That, and the Indo-Soviet Treaty before 1971, are enough to give a perspective.

ALSO, let's not kids over selves about America's help to Pakistan. Pakistan has benefited greatly from American help. It was only after 2001 that there is this deep antagonism. Pakistan, in 1947, was a nation where thorns from trees were used as paperclips. America made Pakistan a formidable country.

In short, Pakistani planners have NEVER sold Pakistan as a 'client' state and never will.

No, it was not after 2001. Since Withdrawal of NATO from Afghanistan was confirmed, Pakistan wanted to have good relation with Taliban and there started backdoor brotherhood between ISI and Taliban so that after the withdrawal, Afghanistan gets a Pro Pakistani government to push India out. There went the things wrong and USA started sending drones.

 

[haviZsultan]

This should have happened a long time ago. I proposed this a long time ago about breaking ties with the US. Do note US is the largest single country where our exports go-it is about 18% of our market. Unless we gain a new market quitting is easier said than done. Furthermore we have to stop all arms procurements.:

When?: The answer to your question is it can start now, today actually, if our government develops a spine. I personally believe we shouldn't say we are cutting ties but just say we want to have a neutral role. That means no bases in Pakistan, NATO goods charged exorbitant prices as surcharge to fix road damage and compensate drivers killed along the way to Landi Kotal. Also refusal to help them in any way (including with drones and Shamsi and picking up of Pakistani citizens) unless absolutely necessary-simply in other words disengagement from the global war on terror and neutrality in this regard (continue fighting local WOT. However focus has to shift to Hakimullah Maseed whose power should greatly have been reduced as he cannot justify his attacks by using America.

About me: Now we do this. But what course of action are we to take? Let me start by saying that I am a Sunni and have no spiritual connection to Iran whatsoever nor am I a communist with a link to China-I am a secularist who has lived the latter years of my life almost in every way a Canadian does-though I refuse Canadian citizenship and am staunchly Pakistani in thinking and ideology-it is just my ways that contradict that sometimes. My point in saying this is that I should actually be on their side but must have seen their true faces to be saying this.

Since I was a child I have been opening up newspapers and reading articles, people think I am mad but I remember stats and figures and things in political arena that happened long ago. This has given me a very solid grip on world affairs. The 13 points I mentioned in that post most people either forget or ignore purposely. I remember and all Pakistanis should.

The consequences: Now after we declare neutrality we should be prepared for consequences. In this aujHistorian was right. In 2009 18.2% of our exports went to US. US is a superpower and it is mad, cruel and bloodthirsty and will do anything to save one American including killing 200 Afghan nationals for it. Proof being the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with nuclear weapons. It is the only country to have committed genocide and escaped on account of a powerful media and modern technology. They will cause issues. We can take a lesson from the past-how they treated the Siachen/Kargil and 1998 nuke tests between India/Pakistan in both cases giving them preferential treatment (no presler amendment on India but a ban on arms sales and economic sanctions on Pakistan though they came running to us when the towers fell)... all of this is going to come back again as the glue that binds us together will have fallen apart.

We are just a tool to be used and discarded and we learned that in 1980's. This will happen again. Either we can break ties now or USA is going to do it and cast the blame for the failure of the war on terror on us and mark my words Niaz in either way it is going to happen, now or later. ISI, army and everything else will be blamed. It is to blame partly but what about the role US played. Everyone else is promoted as an enemy and the 4 Billion US $ pumped into mujahideen which later matured into Taliban forgotten here.

Pakistan will be sanctioned, Pakistan will be punished and it will be bullied. We are seeing the signs in the US-India nuke deal, the offer of better F16s than Pakistan. This is despite the last nuclear deal with Canada resulted in India using that technology to create a nuclear bomb.

Furthermore those exports can suffer. US is an insidious country that rules by force. Declaring neutrality comes with costs. USAID too stops operations.

The solution: The first thing we must do is reduce our dependence on the US. This is phase 1. 1) Initially we can start by trying to find new markets for our exports because in the event of us quitting their alliance they may increase tarriffs and create hurdles. We currently export about 18% of our goods to US (15.8 billion in 2012)

2) We have lots of defence contracts and a lot of components still have to be delivered. We have to ensure we make no new deals and initiate no new ventures with the US. Perhaps even wait an year for things we bought to be delivered. This field could suffer. Furthermore we have to begin concentrating on China, Russia and ingenious production. India is working on a 5th generation fighter.

Now we move to phase 2 of the solution. 1) Develop contacts with Iran. Now this might not go down well with a lot of people and even I don't like theocracies/mullahcracies. But I can only agree with their foreign policy. I mean what is a nation supposed to do? Even if they are seeking nukes, Iraq tried to build WMD's, US is in 2 neighboring countries (possibly 3 if Shamsi was used to spy on Iran) and is the only state to have used them and Israel has them as well as neighboring Pakistan. The negative point may be we may become too influenced by the system present there. I favor secularism so I am worried about the rights situation.

2) Offer China military bases in Pakistan in return for favoring us in UN and in all foreign policy matters. For example Iran was sanctioned to the teeth-but it could not have happened had the Chinese vetoed it. That veto has a lot of power. China may be a very important member and we must lean on it for our relationship. It is the bulwark of this idea. I would not have presented it even if China hadn't been an ally.

Optional: 3) I say optional because it will not go down well. Adopt secularism. Western nations sympathize with other secular states but I know the minds of my people still equate secularism with anti-Islamism which isn't true. In any case if it can't be done give people dignity, rights, freedom, justice and stop wrong and injustices whereever we see them. Most importantly deal with terrorism which should become easier after this since TTP will lose its backing since we are no more officially in the WOT.

Phase 3: 1) Become more assertive and defend national interest. This comes with being free of the US yoke. Demand things from the US we should be given. Recompensation for losses in war on terror. Aafia Siddiqui case. Everything. Present in the media how US has misused us. A knowledgable person can destroy the US narrative in moments. We suffered more in terrorism than we received aid so the narrative we are earning something is false and broken but not a single Pakistani challenges it. It is time to stand on our own feet. This should be the last phase.

 

[Rig Vedic]

let's not kids over selves about America's help to Pakistan. Pakistan has benefited greatly from American help. ...

And I have thought that the Chinese say, something like: Milk the cow (the USA) as much as possible till 2014 (or beyond). We will see what happens after that'.

Yes, it is in China's interest that America continue to bear the burden of supporting Pakistanis for as long as possible.

 

[A.Rafay]

not possible due to huge Pakistani diaspora living in USA and UK and along with that Parliament contains dual citizen members.

Dual citizenship Politicians are now Kicked!!! More than 100 Politicians who took part in 2008 elections wont be contesting elections as Supreme court disqualified them!

 

[FaujHistorian]

...... Do note US is the largest single country where our exports go-it is about 18% of our market. Unless we gain a new market quitting is easier said than done. Furthermore we have to stop all arms procurements.:

When?: The answer to your question is it can start now, today actually, if our government develops a spine. ..........

Havi Dear,

Have you ever exported even a grain of rice or a damn shirt from Pakistan?

Do you know anything about how or where things are exported?

please let me know. Thank you.

..... That means no [US} bases in Pakistan, .....


2) Offer China military bases in Pakistan .....

Asman say gira Khajoor main atka.

Out of frying pan into the fire.

What is this madness about.

If you want to develop that kind of spine that gets mighty stiff in front of USA

and the same spine lies on bed in front of China,

I doubt that is a good spine.


If you know what I mean.


Thank you

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Yes, it is in China's interest that America continue to bear the burden of supporting Pakistanis for as long as possible.

I don't know what your perception of us is, but there is no way we would or could give out billions of dollars in military aid to any other country on an annual basis. Not now and not ten years from now.

That's an American thing.

The Chinese method is investments and loans. Not continuous free money, especially not now that we are still a developing country.

 

[Norboo]

There is no doubt that China can do all those things, however, not sure if they will. That's the 30 billion dollar question. Will they go that far?

Being an 'all weather friend', let's see China's attitude toward Pakistan so far:

> Did not help Pakistan in 1965, 1971 or Kargil except for some lip service.

> Neutral stance on Kashmir.

> Refused to bail out Pakistan last year after which Pakistan had to run to the IMF for a $7 billion loan to pay off its debts under strict conditionalities.

> The $200 million promised for flood relief has remained mostly on paper even though several years have passed.

> The Chinese have pulled out of the $1.6 billion Pakistan-Iran pipeline project, a decision resulting in a setback for the Pakistani government, which fears that dire energy shortages could lead to civil unrest as well as economic strain. China of course, couldn't care less!

> China's Kingho Group, one of China's largest private coal miners have backed out from a $19 billion deal in Southern Sindh province because of security concerns.

Etc etc!

What was that again? Oh yes...Taller than the mountains, deeper than the oceans, sweeter than honey, stronger than steel...Oh never mind! The proof of the pudding is in the eating! But here there's neither any pudding nor any eating!!

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

What was that again? Oh yes...Taller than the mountains, deeper than the oceans, sweeter than honey, stronger than steel...Oh never mind! The proof of the pudding is in the eating! But here there's neither any pudding nor any eating!!

You had a chance to be friendly with China, if not for Nehru's Forward Policy.

You also had a chance to be friendly with Pakistan, when Ayub Khan offered to help India fight against China.

You turned down both, had wars with both (losing half of Kashmir and then Aksai Chin)... and that's supposed to be a strategic victory on your part?

Hell, from what you are saying, it is actually us who have done the best since apparently we only had to spend a few words.

 

[Icewolf]

Being an 'all weather friend', let's see China's attitude toward Pakistan so far:

> Did not help Pakistan in 1965, 1971 or Kargil except for some lip service.

> Neutral stance on Kashmir.

> Refused to bail out Pakistan last year after which Pakistan had to run to the IMF for a $7 billion loan to pay off its debts under strict conditionalities.

> The $200 million promised for flood relief has remained mostly on paper even though several years have passed.

> The Chinese have pulled out of the $1.6 billion Pakistan-Iran pipeline project, a decision resulting in a setback for the Pakistani government, which fears that dire energy shortages could lead to civil unrest as well as economic strain. China of course, couldn't care less!

> China's Kingho Group, one of China's largest private coal miners have backed out from a $19 billion deal in Southern Sindh province because of security concerns.

Etc etc!

What was that again? Oh yes...Taller than the mountains, deeper than the oceans, sweeter than honey, stronger than steel...Oh never mind! The proof of the pudding is in the eating! But here there's neither any pudding nor any eating!!

1. Why would China help in our wars? Pakistan can take care of India by itself, thank you very much.

2. China does NOT have a neutral stance on Kashmir. In China maps, IOK is shown as Pakistan & the CCP has come out to support Pakistan.

3. Pakistan never asked China to bail itself.

4. China has given us flood relief money. Actually they were the first to help.

5. Idiot, China was never involved in the IP pipeline.
TAPIC is still being proposed though.

6. A Chinese company has nothing to do with the Chinese govt.

Again, you Indian, first research this stuff then talk... Moron Idiots..

 

[FaujHistorian]

Being an 'all weather friend', let's see China's attitude toward Pakistan so far:

> Did not help Pakistan in 1965, 1971 or Kargil except for some lip service.

> Neutral stance on Kashmir.

> Refused to bail out Pakistan last year after which Pakistan had to run to the IMF for a $7 billion loan to pay off its debts under strict conditionalities.

> The $200 million promised for flood relief has remained mostly on paper even though several years have passed.

> The Chinese have pulled out of the $1.6 billion Pakistan-Iran pipeline project, a decision resulting in a setback for the Pakistani government, which fears that dire energy shortages could lead to civil unrest as well as economic strain. China of course, couldn't care less!

> China's Kingho Group, one of China's largest private coal miners have backed out from a $19 billion deal in Southern Sindh province because of security concerns.

Etc etc!

What was that again? Oh yes...Taller than the mountains, deeper than the oceans, sweeter than honey, stronger than steel...Oh never mind! The proof of the pudding is in the eating! But here there's neither any pudding nor any eating!!

My dear dear poster,


But China never promised Pakistan any of the things you have listed.


If they never promised, should we then expect all these goodies from them anyway?

Please do not go with the sloganeering by Lefties, Commies and islamists of Pakistan.

They just love to smile towards China (and attribute things China cannot deliver) and at the same time f@rt towards USA.


these poor pooor leftie commie Islamists do not realize a simple simple fact.

China is progressing because it is the biggest trading partner of the USA.

So China will never do something to antagonize the golden goose.

I hope you understand it now.

But I doubt Pakistani Leftie, commie and Islamists will ever pay attention to sino-American bonds.


peace

 

[KRAIT]

I don't know what your perception of us is, but there is no way we would or could give out billions of dollars in military aid to any other country on an annual basis. Not now and not ten years from now. That's an American thing. The Chinese method is investments and loans. Not continuous free money, especially not now that we are still a developing country.

Well they want free money more than loans.

 

[F.O.X]

I love China , they are Great Friends .... however i would rather repay my own debts then to have a friend pay it for me .