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This is not my Quaid’s Pakistan

Sometimes I really feel sorry for the brainwashed kids like you , who are devoid of the ability to think or reason . Programmed to keep talking without listening to any one (pretty much like a tape recorder)
Shouting out loud does not make you "truthful" , You have spoiled the whole thread , all you have done is the wastage a lot of bandwidth
Copy Pasting loads of photo shopped stuff does not prove anything my friend
You dont even know the meaning of secularism
Jinnah was a Shia , you claim to follow him and then talk about khilafat e rashida ...... isnt it funny ?
and I feel sorry for American slaves like you I follow ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW I am only defending Jinah because he never wanted secular Pakistan otherwise I am least interested what he wanted or not he was true slave of ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW that is why I am defending him
I have full faith in my people that they will rise to every occasion worthy of our past Islamic history, glory and traditions. (Message to the Nation on the occasion of the first Anniversary of Pakistan on 14th August, 1948)
Nature has given you everything: you have got unlimited resources. The foundations of your State have been laid, and it is now for you to build, and build as quickly and as well as you can. So go ahead and I wish you God speed. (Message to the Nation on the occasion of the first Anniversary of Pakistan on 14th August, 1948)
The Western world, in spite of its advantages of mechanization and industrial efficiency is today in a worse mess than ever before in history. The adoption Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contented people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. (Speech on the occasion of the opening of the State Bank of Pakistan on 1st July, 1948)
It is only with united effort and faith in our destiny that we shall be able to translate the Pakistan of our dreams into reality. (Message to the Nation on the occasion of Eid-ul-Fitr on 27th August, 1948)
Every Mussalman should serve Pakistan honestly, sincerely and selflessly (Message to the Nation on the occasion of Eid-ul-Fitr on 27th August, 1948)
My message to you is: build up physical strength not for aggression, not for militarism, but for becoming fighting fit, all your life and all the time in every walk of life of your nation wherever you be and always to be a force for peace, international amity and goodwill (Address to athletes)
My guiding principle will be justice and complete impartiality, and I am sure that with your support and co-operation, I can look forward to Pakistan becoming one of the greatest Nations of the world. (Presidential Address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on 11th August, 1947)
We should have a State in which we could live and breathe as free men and which we could develop according to our own lights and culture and where principles of Islamic social justice could find free play.(Address to Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers of Pakistan Government, Karachi October 11, 1947)
”Don’t play marbles in the dust ; it spoils your clothes and dirties your hands. We must stand up and play cricket.” Jinnah at age 14, advising younger boys in his streets
The Western world, is today in a worse mess than ever before in history. The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contended people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. (Opening Ceremony of State Bank on 1st July, 1948)
As you know, history shows that in England conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. (Presidential Address, 11th August, 1947)
We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind (Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi.. July 1, 1948)
In my speeches and in every sphere of the Government in which I have influence, I have emphasized and enjoined that Pakistan must not sit back and brood over its injuries. Our people must work and work hard to repair and enrich their country. We are determined to go ahead, and God willing, we shall succeed. (Broadcast talk to the people of Australia recorded on 19th February, 1948)
We in Pakistan are determined that having won our long-lost freedom we will work to the utmost limit of our capacity not only to build up a strong and happy State of our own but to contribute in the fullest possible measure to international peace and prosperity. (26th February, 1948)
It should be our aim not only to remove want and fear of all types, but also to secure liberty, fraternity and equality as enjoined upon us by Islam. (Reply to the Civic Address presented by the Karachi Corporation on 25th August, 1947)
We are living in a far from perfect world. Despite the progress of civilization, the law of the jungle, unfortunately, still prevails. Might is considered right and the strong do not refrain from exploiting the weak. Self-advancement, greed and lust for power sway the conduct of the individuals as that of nations. (Message to the Pakistan Scouts on 22nd December, 1947)
This is challenge to our very existence and if we are to survive as a nation and are to translate our dreams about Pakistan into reality we shall have to grapple with the problem facing us with redoubled zeal and energy. Our masses are today disorganized and disheartened by the cataclysm that has befallen them. (Address to Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers of Pakistan, Karachi on October 11, 1947)
This is a great achievement in itself and can only be attributed to the high morale, integrity, and selfless devotion to duty and loyalty. I have no doubt that you will always be prepared to take on any hazardous duty which you may be called upon to perform. (Address to Officers and men of 3rd Armoured Brigade, Risalpur on 13th April, 1948)
I pray to God that at this critical moment. He may guide us and enable us to discharge our responsibilities in a wise and statesmanlike manner. (Broadcast Speech on 3rd June, 1947)
Now I ask you to get rid of this provincialism, because as long as you allow this poison to remain in the body politic of Pakistan, believe me, you will never be a strong nation, and you will never be able to achieve what I wish we could achieve. (Speech at a public meeting attended by over three lakhs of people at Dhaka on March 21, 1948)
 
Hey! There is a dispute on What exactly is Quaid's Pakistan so how can we decide if this is quaid's pakistan or not?
First we have to know what Quaid's Pakistan is

It is unfortunate that after more than 65 years of independence it is still not clear what Quaid's Pakistan is.
 
and I feel sorry for American slaves like you I follow ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW I am only defending Jinah because he never wanted secular Pakistan otherwise I am least interested what he wanted or not he was true slave of ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW that is why I am defending him

These are the only two lines you wrote yourself , rest is again copy paste . and that too from a previous post of yours from the same thread ...usual :blah::blah:

And I am not a American slave my friend . I follow Allah and his Rasool SAW , may be more than you . Who are you to judge ?

Unfortunately both Mr.Iqbal and Mr.Jinnah did not live enough to define the term "Islamic republic"

They never knew about it , we actually "invented" this hybrid in 1956 , long after their death ;)

Can an "Islamic" state be liberal to all it's countrymen?

A Socialist progressive Islamic state can be , a Mullah state cant be ...
 
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A Socialist progressive Islamic state can be , a Mullah state cant be ...

Azlan,I was reading your arguments on this topic in some other thread which were simply amazing. If Islam does not treat everybody equal,how can it be liberal/progressive first of all.Are we not stuck into basics in the beginning? Now if an Islamic state needs to be progressive it must not adhere to it's primary principles. The point I am asking is is Pakistan ready to reinterpret the holy text or in Iqbal's words "reconstruct the Islamic thoughts"? If yes,then how? This seems to be a mountainous task for a society which is educated,liberal in thoughts,inclined to moderate version of Islam but severely challenged by the relentless skirmish by religious extremism entangled in national politics.
 
I did not know that Indians also follow our school level Pak Studies ..... :)

In 1945 Liaquat signed an agreement with Bhulabhai Desai of the Congress party, committing the Muslim League to a certain line of action on future constitutional progress of the country. He did this after telling Desai that Jinnah was a sick man and was dying and if the Congress desired a lasting and practicable solution of the Muslim problem it should deal with him (Liaquat) rather than with Jinnah. It was a secret and shady deal and Jinnah was neither consulted nor informed. When he read the news and the text of the Liaquat-Desai Pact in the press he was shocked, and considered it as an act of treachery on Liaquat’s part, and ordered his domestic staff not to let Liaquat enter his residence if he came to visit him.

Even as Prime Minister, Liaquat did not enjoy the trust of Jinnah. How could he with this background? Chaudari Muhammad Ali implied in his talks with me that the two men were not even on speaking term except in public and large company. M.A.H. Ispahani said that the Prime Minister did not take the files to the Governor General for personal discussion but sent them by the hand of his secretary. Thus there is sufficient evidence from authentic quarters to prove that Liaquat Ali Khan, in spite of being the first Prime Minister of the country, was far from being a national hero. His own record in office provides additional support to this contention. He failed to expedite the process of constitution making and died after more than four years in command without giving the country its basic law. He made a deliberate decision to refuse to visit the Soviet Union from which he had received an invitation. Instead, he chose to go to the United States and take Pakistan into the American Camp, thus initiating a slide, which led, by stages to friendship, junior partnership, dependence, obedience, beggary, and servitude.

He groomed certain bureaucrats for high political offices and preferred their advice to the counsel of his political colleagues. He neglected the task of organizing the Pakistan Muslim League and making it into a grass root party. He did nothing to meet the needs or allay the fears of the indigenous population of East Bengal. He posted arrogant, unsympathetic and self-willed Punjabi and Urdu-Speaking civil servants to the Eastern Wing, laying the first brick around the foundation stone of Bangladesh.


{The Murder of History: A critique of history textbooks used in Pakistan by K.K. AZIZ}.

Jinnah`s sister , Fatima Jinnah also writes about the mistrust of his brother in Liaquat Ali in her book "My Brother" , only some parts of which were allowed to be published by the Pak govt. for obvious reasons ....



Liaquat Ali was well known for his interest in "Raqs"(dance) & "sharaab"(alcohol) ... And this man brought forward "Objective Resolution" ... ;)

In his all political rallies Jinnah always criticize Hindus, the religious politics was against Hindus which proves he was never a secular guy. He even disowned his western outfits for Sherwani and topi to look more appealing to Muslims.

A Socialist progressive Islamic state can be , a Mullah state cant be ...

You think that's a secular state.
 
Azlan,I was reading your arguments on this topic in some other thread which were simply amazing. If Islam does not treat everybody equal,how can it be liberal/progressive first of all.Are we not stuck into basics in the beginning? Now if an Islamic state needs to be progressive it must not adhere to it's primary principles. The point I am asking is is Pakistan ready to reinterpret the holy text or in Iqbal's words "reconstruct the Islamic thoughts"? If yes,then how? This seems to be a mountainous task for a society which is educated,liberal in thoughts,inclined to moderate version of Islam but severely challenged by the relentless skirmish by religious extremism entangled in national politics.

.You think that's a secular state.


Jinnah was a hero , no doubt , but we have forgotten other true heroes whose role was equally significant , if not more , in gaining independence from British Rule ... Today no history book in Pakistan acknowledges their services as they were opposed to the partition of subcontinent ....

One such name is that of Allama Mashriqi the great - A hero of all times , Islamic scholar , a visionary, a reformer, a leader, and a scientist-philosopher who was born ahead of his time.!!!
He was against partition which he believed played into the hands of the British.

Allama Mashriqi (1888-1963) became a college Principal at the age of 25, and then became an Under Secretary, at the age of 29, in the Education Department of the Government of India. He wrote an exegesis of the Qur'an which was nominated for the 1925 Nobel Prize. He was offered an ambassadorship to Afghanistan at age 32, but he declined all honours.He subsequently resigned government service and in 1930 founded the Khaksar Movement, aiming to advance the condition of the masses irrespective of any faith, sect, or religion.



His weekly , Al-Islah (f.1934), indeed served to spread the Movement, which rose to become a Private Army (as referred to by Lord Linlithgow, Viceroy of India) of 5 million in less than a decade since its foundation and had over 6000 offices across India . In addition, the Al-Islah inspired others who copied the Khaksars and formed similar organizations. The weekly also helped to achieve Allama Mashriqi’s (founder of the Khaksar Tehrik) mission of instilling unity, strict discipline, equality, and self-less community service (regardless of religion) amongst millions of Khaksars.


This piece argues that the British would not even have spoken to Indian leaders or thought of transferring power, and the emergence of Pakistan and India could not have been envisioned, unless the rulers understood the grave threat posed to their rule by this awakening brought on by Al-Islah and the Khaksar Movement.

To read the article, click on the link below:

Khaksar Movement Weekly “Al-Islah’s” Role Toward Freedom






And a progressive Islamic state can be secular . After all there are over 25 "officially secular" Muslim countries in the world !!

Iqbal , or Jinnah or the great Islamic scholar Allama Mashriqi , there message was same

"Long Live The Ideals of the Khaksars.........Peace, Amity,
Brotherhood, Service - Irrespective of Caste or Creed,
One God, One Humanity, One Practical Religion,
----
Yes, One Religion, Which means Goodness In Action"

The Radiance ( Aligarh) February 06, 1943


Iqbal says :
Mazhab Nahin Sikhata Apas Mein Bair Rakhna
Hindi Hain Hum, Watan Hai Hindustan Humara

Religion does not teach us to be enemies with each other:
We are Indians, our homeland is our India.


Jinnah says :
In course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

And
rest was all politics ...........
Jinnah was a secular to the core , like most of us .. not a practicing muslim but having deep respect for Islam .. His politics was based on religion , he was the leader of Muslim masses !! but he made it clear to the constituent assembly that he meant a "secular" Pakistan ........
.
@scorpionx Iqbal has given a very simple solution , stop following hadith blindly and progress (or a further evolution as he says) is quite possible ...
Islamic History & Archaeology | Pakistan Defence

The problem is that it is almost impossible to convince the brainwashed followers of mullahs academically . But these mullahs have been exposed now and are hated by the majority of us . Future surely is bright as our young generation now is more connected to the rest of the world .. thanks to the internet :)
 
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Azlan, Zarvy is a notoriously hard guy to convince on anything but what he wants. I've been wanting to do a major project on this named 'Putting the Ideological Question to Rest', would you like to collab there with me? Instead of handling everyone we can simply deal with these questions in detail both in history and politics and give a detailed answer.

What do you think?
No doubt .... But the problem is how do we know that the holy prophet (pbuh) actually said what is being attributed to him !!!



okay ..... we will see what you are able to come up with ... till then , enjoy this "snack" from Pak tea house : :pop::pop::pop:

Was Jinnah secular? | Pak Tea House

I have argued repeatedly and I stick by the position that Jinnah wanted a state that can only be described in modern parlance as a secular democratic state. My claim is not based on 11 August 1947 alone and in fact I will go as far as to say that Jinnah’s vision of the state would have been secular even if he had not made that extraordinary pronouncement where he merely put it in black and white.

My claim is based on all of the following:

  1. Jinnah’s record as a legislator in the central Indian legislature spanning over four decades.
  2. Jinnah’s role in the Indian Independence movement and in trying to forge a united Indian nationality which earned him the title of “Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity”.
  3. Jinnah’s record after he took over the Muslim League as its president.
  4. Jinnah’s clear pronouncements as the Governor General and the first president of the constituent assembly.
  5. The symbolism deployed by Jinnah in his choice of his cabinet...................................

Zarvan, the original confusion, if you will, arises from the fact that we do not appreciate the fact that Pakistan was a state created for the 'Muslamaans of India' which was interchangeably calledd an 'Islamic' state. If you devlve deep in the history, without biasness, you'd see the huge difference.
Mr this shows how big lies you are coming up with Mr even Iqbal initally talked about nationalism and other things but he changed later and yes Jinah was first great propagate of Hindu Muslim Unity and but he changed later and first of that proof is his speech of 23rd March 1940 the two nation theory Mr and after that till his death he was all for separate Muslim land and for Islamic Law and if you read Iqbal inital poetry he was also for India but he realized mentality of Hindus and so did Jinah so show gutts and bring all the speeches of Jinah starting from 23rd March 1940 till his death this would be enough to slap the face of secular and what ALLAH and his PROPHET SAW have said is as clear as water and available to us in form of Quran and Books of Hadees and Sunnah and Islamic History and that would be implemented

"The Hindus and the Muslims belong to two different religions, philosophies, social customs, and literature. They neither inter-marry, nor inter-dine together, and indeed they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspects on life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Muslims derive their inspirations from different sources of history. They have different epics, their heroes are different, and they have different episodes. Very often the hero of one is foe of the other, and likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single state, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and the final destruction of any fabric that may be so built for the government of such a state."

Today Pakistani Nation is observing the 64th death anniversary of Great Quaid Muhammad Ali Jinnah, founder of Pakistan. When I open news websites and read different so-called political leaders views about Quaid and what was the vision of our great Quaid for the Pakistan. So I decided to write something on it.

Quaid was very much worried about the fate of Muslims under the Indian role after British. He was very much confirmed that Muslims and Hindus never live together in future. So he decided to get a separate homeland for Muslims. He has a very clear and concrete vision about Pakistan.

In an interview to American press in July 1942, when asked by a journalist whether the Muslims were a nation or not, Quaid-e-Azam replied, "We are a nation with our own individual culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of values and proportion, legal laws and norms, customs and calendar, history and traditions, aptitudes and ambitions, in short, we have our own unique outlook on life and of life. By all cannons of international law we are a nation".

A conflict has aroused in Pakistan about whether Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be a secular state or an Islamic state. His views as expressed in his policy speech on August 11, 1947 said:

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“There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should entirely and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make. I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long ago. No power can hold another nation and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State".

While this may seem to be an indication that Jinnah wanted a secular state, he also referred to Islam and Islamic principles in February 1948:

"The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fair play to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan”.

It has been argued by many people that in this speech Jinnah wanted to point out that Pakistan would be a secular state as mostly people think that an Islamic state is a theocratic state. This perception, however, is wrong and is misinterpreted; the reason is that a true Islamic state is not a theocratic state, as stated by Jinnah in his speech.

On the opening ceremony of the state bank of Pakistan Jinnah pointed out that the financial setup of the state should be based on Islamic economic system.

In 1948 in the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan he said that we must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind.

It appears that Jinnah felt the state of Pakistan should stand upon Islamic tradition in culture, civilization and national identity rather than on the principles of Islam as a theocratic state.

In 1937, Jinnah further defended his ideology of equality in his speech to the All-India Muslim League in Lucknow where he stated, "Settlement can only be achieved between equals." He also had a negation to Nehru's statement which argued that the only two parties that mattered in India were the British Raj and Indian National Congress (INC). Jinnah stated that the Muslim League was the third and "equal partner" within Indian politics.

Quaid has a very clear idea and vision about the Pakistan and he never want to see Pakistan a secular country. Many people argued that great Quaid was a secular which is not true. Here I would like to quote only one example which is necessary to clear that he wasn’t a secular. He once said that I am working for Muslims because I want that when I meet Allah hereafter death He would say “Well done Mr. Jinnah”.

On August 6, 1939, Quaid said: “I was born Muslim; I am a Muslim and shall die a Muslim.” At another time he said: “I am no Maulana or a Maulvi but I also know a little of my faith.” Muhammad Ali Jinnah was brought up in a Muslim family, adhered to the tenants of Islam, was repeatedly elected to the Indian Council/Legislative Assembly on a seat reserved for a Muslim, succeeded in getting a number of bills concerning the Muslims passed from the Legislative Assembly, advocated Hindu-Muslim unity, always stressed for safeguards for the Muslims including their demand for a federal form of government as envisaged by the Nehru Report. In his negotiations with the government and parlays with the Indian Congress, he always stoutly advocated the Muslim cause.

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Quaid-i-Azam’s vision of Pakistan is very clear: he wanted Pakistan to be modern, progressive, dynamic, forward looking and a democratic country with equal rights for all its citizens irrespective of their casts, creed or religion.

In August 1941, Quaid-e-Azam gave an interview to the students of the Osmania University. While giving the answer of "What are the essential features of religion and a religious state?" Quaid said, when I hear the word “religion,” my mind thinks at once, according to the English language and British usage, of private relations between man and God. But I know full well that according to Islam, the word is not restricted to the English connotation. I am neither a Maulwi nor a Mullah, nor do I claim knowledge of theology. But I have studied in my own way the Holy Quran and Islamic tenets. This magnificent book is full of guidance respecting all human life, whether spiritual, or economic, political or social, leaving no aspect untouched”.

Quaid-e-Azam further said while describing the distinctive feature of the Islamic state that “there is a special feature of the Islamic state which must not be overlooked. There, obedience is due to God and God alone, which takes practical shape in the observance of the Quranic principles and commands. In Islam, obedience is due neither to a king, nor to a parliament, nor to any other organization. It is the Quranic provisions which determine the limits of our freedom and restrictions in political and social spheres. In other words, the Isla



mic state is an agency for enforcement of the Quranic principles and injunctions".

There will be no economic exploitation by the capitalists in an Islamic state. In his presidential address delivered to the annual session of the All India Muslim League, in Delhi on April 24, 1943, he said:

“Here I should like to give a warning to the landlords and capitalists who have flourished at our expense by a system which is so vicious, which is so wicked and which makes them so selfish that it is difficult to reason with them. The exploitation of the masses has gone into their blood. They have forgotten the lessons of Islam. Greed and selfishness have made these people subordinate to the interests of others in order to fatten themselves. It is true we are not in power today. You go anywhere to the countryside. I have visited villages. There are millions and millions of our people who hardly get one meal a day. Is this civilization? Is this the aim of Pakistan? Do you visualize that millions have been exploited and cannot get one meal a day? If this is the idea of Pakistan, I would not have it. If they are wise, they will have to adjust themselves to the new modern conditions of life. If they don’t, God help them, we shall not help them.”


In light of the above, we can see that Quaid-e-Azam was neither for Western-style democracy nor for Mulla-style theocracy. He essentially advocated what may be called Islamic social democracy. But tell this to secularists or to Islamists. They would never believe it. No wonder truth is stranger than fiction.

- See more at: Jinnah's vision for Pakistan a secular state or Islamic?

I shall watch with keenness the work of your Research Organization in evolving banking practices compatible with Islamic ideas of social and economic life. The economic system of the West has created almost insoluble problems for humanity and to many of us it appears that only a miracle can save it from disaster that is not facing the world. It has failed to do justice between man and man and to eradicate friction from the international field. On the contrary, it was largely responsible for the two world wars in the last half century. The Western world, in spite of its advantages, of mechanization and industrial efficiency is today in a worse mess than ever before in history. The adoption of Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contended people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind.

The model which Pakistan was suppose to follow was Israel: an ethno-religious identity based state BUT not a theocracy, in Quaid's own words.
In his all political rallies Jinnah always criticize Hindus, the religious politics was against Hindus which proves he was never a secular guy. He even disowned his western outfits for Sherwani and topi to look more appealing to Muslims.



You think that's a secular state.
 
Azlan, Zarvy is a notoriously hard guy to convince on anything but what he wants. I've been wanting to do a major project on this named 'Putting the Ideological Question to Rest', would you like to collab there with me? Instead of handling everyone we can simply deal with these questions in detail both in history and politics and give a detailed answer.

What do you think?.

Just let me know when you want to do it :)
 
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Azlan, Zarvy is a notoriously hard guy to convince on anything but what he wants. I've been wanting to do a major project on this named 'Putting the Ideological Question to Rest', would you like to collab there with me? Instead of handling everyone we can simply deal with these questions in detail both in history and politics and give a detailed answer.

What do you think?


Zarvan, the original confusion, if you will, arises from the fact that we do not appreciate the fact that Pakistan was a state created for the 'Muslamaans of India' which was interchangeably calledd an 'Islamic' state. If you devlve deep in the history, without biasness, you'd see the huge difference.


The model which Pakistan was suppose to follow was Israel: an ethno-religious identity based state BUT not a theocracy, in Quaid's own words.
Sir Islam is a complete system and Pakistan according to Jinah was made so Islamic Principals can be implemented but in the end for Muslims what matter is what ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW and Sahabas did and said so what Muslims need to do is implement that I am only defending Jinah because he never wanted a secular state and millions didn't migrated to go from one secular state to another
 
Nobody is arguing about Islam, Zarv, we're arguing about what the Quaid envisioned and that based on history is not a theocracy.
Sir Islam is a complete system and Pakistan according to Jinah was made so Islamic Principals can be implemented but in the end for Muslims what matter is what ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW and Sahabas did and said so what Muslims need to do is implement that I am only defending Jinah because he never wanted a secular state and millions didn't migrated to go from one secular state to another
 
The model which Pakistan was suppose to follow was Israel: an ethno-religious identity based state BUT not a theocracy, in Quaid'szown words.

Jinnah believed that only Islam will be sufficient to unite people of Pakistan, that idea of Pakistani nationalism was based on religion. Are you sure calling it ethno is appropriate, you forget we divided the Bengali, Punjabi and Sindhi population based on religion.
 
Nobody is arguing about Islam, Zarv, we're arguing about what the Quaid envisioned and that based on history is not a theocracy.
I have quoted what Jinah wanted and to be more clear we need to just publish all the speeches of Jinah after 11th August till his death and also his interviews
 
Jinnah believed that only Islam will be sufficient to unite people of Pakistan, that idea of Pakistani nationalism was based on religion. Are you sure calling it ethno is appropriate, you forget we divided the Bengali, Punjabi and Sindhi population based on religion.

Jinnah worked for Hindu Muslim Unity and was named as Messenger of peace

He was initially with congress and later on moved to Muslim League. In 1920, Jinnah resigned from the Congress when it agreed to follow a campaign of satyagraha, or non-violent resistance, advocated by the influential leader, Mohandas Gandhi.

He came up with fourteen points which were
  • The form of the future constitution should be federal, with the residuary powers vested in the provinces.
  • All cabinets at central or local level should have at least 1/3 Muslim representation.
  • All legislatures in the country and other elected bodies shall be constituted on the definite principle of adequate and effective representation of minorities in every province without reducing the majority in any province to a minority or even equality.
  • In the Central Legislature, Muslim representation shall not be less than one third.
  • Representation of communal groups shall continue to be by means of separate electorate as at present, provided it shall be open to any community at any time to abandon its separate electorate in favor of a joint electorate.
  • Any territorial distribution that might at any time be necessary shall not in any way affect the Muslim majority.
  • Full religious liberty, i.e. liberty of belief, worship and observance, propaganda, association and education, shall be guaranteed to all communities.
  • No bill or resolution or any part thereof shall be passed in any legislature or any other elected body if three fourths of the members of any community in that particular body oppose it as being injurious to the interests of that community or in the alternative, such other method is devised as may be found feasible and practicable to deal with such cases.
  • Sindh should be separated from the Bombay Presidency.
  • Reforms should be introduced in the North West Frontier Province and Balochistan on the same footing as in the other provinces.
  • Provision should be made in the constitution giving Muslims an adequate share, along with the other Indians, in all the services of the state and in local self-governing bodies having due regard to the requirements of efficiency.
  • The constitution should embody adequate safeguards for the protection of Muslim culture and for the protection and promotion of Muslim education, language, religion, personal laws and Muslim charitable institutions and for their due share in the grants-in-aid given by the state and by local self-governing bodies.
  • No cabinet, either central or provincial, should be formed without there being a proportion of at least one-third Muslim ministers.
  • No change shall be made in the constitution by the Central Legislature except with the concurrence of the State's contribution of the Indian Federation.
These points were declared 14 ridiculous points by Jinnah and rejected by congress.

By 1940, Jinnah had come to believe that Indian Muslims should have their own state. In that year, the Muslim League, led by Jinnah, passed the Lahore Resolution, demanding a separate nation. During the Second World War, the League gained strength while leaders of the Congress were imprisoned, and in the elections held shortly after the war, it won most of the seats reserved for Muslims. Ultimately, the Congress and the Muslim League could not reach a power-sharing formula for a united India, leading all parties to agree to separate independence for a predominately Hindu India, and for a Muslim-majority state, to be called Pakistan.

The creation of the new State has placed a tremendous responsibility on the citizens of Pakistan. It gives them an opportunity to demonstrate to the world how can a nation, containing many elements, live in peace and amity and work for the betterment of all its citizens, irrespective of caste or creed.
---
This day marks the end of a poignant phase in our national history and it should also be the beginning of a new and a noble era. Let us impress the minorities by word, deed and thought that as long as they fulfill their duties and obligations as loyal citizens of Pakistan, they have nothing to fear. - M A Jinnah 15th August 1947

Extract from his 11th August 1947 speech to constituent assembly.
Dealing with our first function in this Assembly, I cannot make any well-considered pronouncement at this moment, but I shall say a few things as they occur to me. The first and the foremost thing that I would like to emphasize is this - remember that you are now a sovereign legislative body and you have got all the powers. It, therefore, places on you the gravest responsibility as to how you should take your decisions. The first observation that I would like to make is this: You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State.

Just tell where it was said that muslim can be united on the basis of religion.
 
You are a well meaning gentleman. Here's my take.

Remember how you behaved when you wanted some gift badly? You would promise to your parents that you would listen to them all that crap... Indeed you would do as they say, for the most part till you get your gift. Once you have it, there remained no need to keep up the pretentious charade. IMO Jinnah only spoke those nice words because he was vulnerable and weak. After he got his prize, he no longer had to say such stuff. So then you have @Zarvan 's quotes. No offense meant to anyone.
well your opinion cannot change the record and history. He was very much against division of Indian Sub continent, until he was sure that muslims would be denied opportunities of growth in united independent india. He was a liberal and not a fundamentalist.
 
Jinnah worked for Hindu Muslim Unity and was named as Messenger of peace

He was initially with congress and later on moved to Muslim League. In 1920, Jinnah resigned from the Congress when it agreed to follow a campaign of satyagraha, or non-violent resistance, advocated by the influential leader, Mohandas Gandhi.

He came up with fourteen points which were
  • The form of the future constitution should be federal, with the residuary powers vested in the provinces.
  • All cabinets at central or local level should have at least 1/3 Muslim representation.
  • All legislatures in the country and other elected bodies shall be constituted on the definite principle of adequate and effective representation of minorities in every province without reducing the majority in any province to a minority or even equality.
  • In the Central Legislature, Muslim representation shall not be less than one third.
  • Representation of communal groups shall continue to be by means of separate electorate as at present, provided it shall be open to any community at any time to abandon its separate electorate in favor of a joint electorate.
  • Any territorial distribution that might at any time be necessary shall not in any way affect the Muslim majority.
  • Full religious liberty, i.e. liberty of belief, worship and observance, propaganda, association and education, shall be guaranteed to all communities.
  • No bill or resolution or any part thereof shall be passed in any legislature or any other elected body if three fourths of the members of any community in that particular body oppose it as being injurious to the interests of that community or in the alternative, such other method is devised as may be found feasible and practicable to deal with such cases.
  • Sindh should be separated from the Bombay Presidency.
  • Reforms should be introduced in the North West Frontier Province and Balochistan on the same footing as in the other provinces.
  • Provision should be made in the constitution giving Muslims an adequate share, along with the other Indians, in all the services of the state and in local self-governing bodies having due regard to the requirements of efficiency.
  • The constitution should embody adequate safeguards for the protection of Muslim culture and for the protection and promotion of Muslim education, language, religion, personal laws and Muslim charitable institutions and for their due share in the grants-in-aid given by the state and by local self-governing bodies.
  • No cabinet, either central or provincial, should be formed without there being a proportion of at least one-third Muslim ministers.
  • No change shall be made in the constitution by the Central Legislature except with the concurrence of the State's contribution of the Indian Federation.
These points were declared 14 ridiculous points by Jinnah and rejected by congress.

By 1940, Jinnah had come to believe that Indian Muslims should have their own state. In that year, the Muslim League, led by Jinnah, passed the Lahore Resolution, demanding a separate nation. During the Second World War, the League gained strength while leaders of the Congress were imprisoned, and in the elections held shortly after the war, it won most of the seats reserved for Muslims. Ultimately, the Congress and the Muslim League could not reach a power-sharing formula for a united India, leading all parties to agree to separate independence for a predominately Hindu India, and for a Muslim-majority state, to be called Pakistan.



Extract from his 11th August 1947 speech to constituent assembly.


Just tell where it was said that muslim can be united on the basis of religion.

You are just trying history revisionism by denying the well-known fact that Jinnah saw Islam as common religion sufficient in unifying Pakistan. this is often talked when case of relations between East and West Pakistan.

Congress was always against electorate based on religion, so his congress years can't decide his secular credentials during his Muslim League years. How his 14 points prove him as a secular man?
 
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