The Vietnam Solution

[gpit]

I see some comments from members are correct, but many are misinterpreted. As a Viet kieu, I want to add two notes into the discussion.

We educated are always aware that each individual is unique and has his own mindset because each has his own upbringings. What is needed is a place such as this forum or others that each can present his/her own opinion/logic/facts, etc.

For instance, EastSea continuously brings up Manchukuo. Any people have the slightest sense of ground reality in China will know immediately EastSea is miserably off the reality.

1st, he doesn’t know that Manchukuo was a product of imperial Japan. Imperial Japan is down, and any sign of its resurrection would immediately cause uproars from all countries around Japan due to its WWII atrocity, including Vietnam. Thus, his claim shows his illiteracy in history of China in particular and that of Asia and world in general.

2nd, he is completely ignorant of how well Man and the rest of Chinese are mixed. I met some Man friends that I didn’t know until they tell me. Asking them to separate from China is akin to asking New Jersey to separate from the Union. Thus, his claim shows his illiteracy in the reality of China.

A person both illiterate in history and illiterate in reality can only be a laughing stock to the whole world.

But he is free to be a laughing stock, right?

As you mentioned you are Viet Kieu, just let you know that I helped some Vietnam refugees myself decades ago. I felt they are very nice and friendly and didn’t nurture the kind of hatred that I see on the internet, and they know I am a Chinese.

After a period of interaction with Vietnamese here, I started to think why they appeared to me so nice. I have two guesses:

1) They are probably (mostly) Chinese Vietnamese that were chased out of Vietnam ruthlessly by VietCong, as I learnt later.

2) They needed help so they showed some niceness. Once they passed the period of difficult, they would curse you just like Vietnam loved China when it needed it to against US, and curses China when that is over. I remember there is a common word used in Chinese internet called “white eyed wolf”. Are they white eyed wolf? I know not.

First message to our Vietnamese brothers in Vietnam:
that is true, many Viets, especially the south Vietnamese living oversea, hate the current Vietnamese government. There are many reasons for, I do not like to tell here, BUT I do not know anyone who hates his motherland!
Be sure if Vietnam is in danger, every Viet will fight against the invader. Regardless of different minds, all Viets are patriots.

And for our Chinese friends:
Vietnam always wants to coexist with China, but through history China always wants to occupy Vietnam or only accepts it as a vassal if it gained independence!
Check the history textbook, and look back the events in the last 2100 years!
China has always proved as arrogant and aggressive towards its smaller broher in the South. Even today.

The Chinese may be successful telling lie to others, but due to our close relationship we Viets know best what the Chinese think and have in mind. So pls stop convince us that we shall halt cooperate with Russia and the U.S. and others.
China just awaits a chance to take over Vietnam!

If you conclude that “China has always proved as arrogant and aggressive towards its smaller broher in the South” to induce a hatred against China, than I could also say, but I will not, that Vietnam has always proven a vassal country and a whining concubine to its big north neighbor but an aggressor against its southern smaller brothers. (Don’t forget you annexed Champa and occupied part of Cambodia, so you are a not holly cow.)


In fact, if Vietnam provokes a war or conflict I don’t encourage Viet Kieu to join the muddy water. Rather do you own business and enjoy a good life overseas instead of being a cannon fodder for VietCong.

Remember, we educated should always be more than just a bag of boiling blood.

And if it comes to the worst, don’t forget there are lot more overseas Chinese, richer, more educated, and perhaps hotter in blood (such as Martian 2).

 

[NiceGuy]

If you conclude that “China has always proved as arrogant and aggressive towards its smaller broher in the South” to induce a hatred against China, than I could also say, but I will not, that Vietnam has always proven a vassal country and a whining concubine to its big north neighbor

Twisting history can't change the fact that lots of chinese fled to VN, bowed down and begged for protection during Mongol-Manchus's invasion

 

[EastSea]

We educated are always aware that each individual is unique and has his own mindset because each has his own upbringings. What is needed is a place such as this forum or others that each can present his/her own opinion/logic/facts, etc.

For instance, EastSea continuously brings up Manchukuo. Any people have the slightest sense of ground reality in China will know immediately EastSea is miserably off the reality.

1st, he doesn’t know that Manchukuo was a product of imperial Japan. Imperial Japan is down, and any sign of its resurrection would immediately cause uproars from all countries around Japan due to its WWII atrocity, including Vietnam. Thus, his claim shows his illiteracy in history of China in particular and that of Asia and world in general.

2nd, he is completely ignorant of how well Man and the rest of Chinese are mixed. I met some Man friends that I didn’t know until they tell me. Asking them to separate from China is akin to asking New Jersey to separate from the Union. Thus, his claim shows his illiteracy in the reality of China.

A person both illiterate in history and illiterate in reality can only be a laughing stock to the whole world.

But he is free to be a laughing stock, right?

As you mentioned you are Viet Kieu, just let you know that I helped some Vietnam refugees myself decades ago. I felt they are very nice and friendly and didn’t nurture the kind of hatred that I see on the internet, and they know I am a Chinese.

After a period of interaction with Vietnamese here, I started to think why they appeared to me so nice. I have two guesses:

1) They are probably (mostly) Chinese Vietnamese that were chased out of Vietnam ruthlessly by VietCong, as I learnt later.

2) They needed help so they showed some niceness. Once they passed the period of difficult, they would curse you just like Vietnam loved China when it needed it to against US, and curses China when that is over. I remember there is a common word used in Chinese internet called “white eyed wolf”. Are they white eyed wolf? I know not.



If you conclude that “China has always proved as arrogant and aggressive towards its smaller broher in the South” to induce a hatred against China, than I could also say, but I will not, that Vietnam has always proven a vassal country and a whining concubine to its big north neighbor but an aggressor against its southern smaller brothers. (Don’t forget you annexed Champa and occupied part of Cambodia, so you are a not holly cow.)


In fact, if Vietnam provokes a war or conflict I don’t encourage Viet Kieu to join the muddy water. Rather do you own business and enjoy a good life overseas instead of being a cannon fodder for VietCong.

Remember, we educated should always be more than just a bag of boiling blood.

And if it comes to the worst, don’t forget there are lot more overseas Chinese, richer, more educated, and perhaps hotter in blood (such as Martian 2).

In the year 2004. The supporters of former Manchukuo came out to form the Manchukuo Temporary Government to fight for the Manchuria Independent. In 2006, the state became a Constitutional Monarchy. They original regard the former emperor Aisingioro Puyi as the emperor. But in the year 2008, a new emperor was elected in a democratic way. The Majesty was called Aisingioro Hrkit.
In the year 2010, the second emperor was declared as died. The public elected the third emperor Aisingioro Sungai as the new emperor.
The temporary government is based on democracy. The first president of the government is Minbyong Nyugulu. He was also the founder of the temporary government. He led a cabinet with members from Japan, USA, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Europe, etc.

The temporary government also set up branches all over the world, such as Japan, Taiwan, USA, Brazil and Italy. The scale of the government become bigger and bigger.

The government carried out Anti-Communist China policy after 2008. They aimed at defeating the Communist China and build up a democratic China and Manchuria. They also support the Independence of Tibet, East Turkistan and Taiwan.

In April 2011,to strengthen Manchukuo's power, fight against the evil Chinese Communist and support the Chinese Democrats. We have made agreement with the Qing Restoration Organization to merge the two regime. We will make a stronger, more democratic and liberal country. The new Manchuria will remain a democratic country, it consist of more democrats.
The proposal was passed by the cabinet. The result of the Manchu-Qing Merging Plebiscite was also passed.

The Prime Minister Mr. Cheung Siu Bong and the cabinet members have resigned to His Majesty, the sovereign rights and ruling right was handed to the Temporary Administrator Mr. Jason Adam Tonis. He will discuss with the Qing Restoration Organization about the merging matters. The new government will be formed soon.

In May 28, 2011. His Majesty Lee Chee Chuan become our new emperor. Mr. Jason Adam Tonis was elected as the new Prime Minister.

English Version Manchukuo Temporary Government Official Website

 

[gpit]

Twisting history can't change the fact that lots of chinese fled to VN, bowed down and begged for protection during Mongol-Manchus's invasion

Nobody denies lots of Chinese ran into Vietnam when the mainland suffered big turmoil.

But if the following history is twisted, tell us where:

1471 Vietnamese invasion of Champa

1471 Vietnamese invasion of Champa under Emperor Lê Thánh Tông was a military expedition that is widely regarded as marking the downfall of Champa. The Vietnamese forces attacked and sacked the capital Vijaya, and decimated the Cham army. As a result of the conflict, Champa was forced to cede territory to Vietnam and from thereafter ceased to pose a threat to Vietnamese territory.

Invasion

By 1470, the Chams had converted from Hinduism to Islam. This and their earlier attack on Angkor led the Cambodians to ignore the Cham's request for assistance when Vietnam invaded.[1]

The Cham feared an imminent Vietnamese attack, and requested that the Ming dynasty of China bring the Vietnamese back in line by force and clearly demarcate the border between Champa and Vietnam. China only verbally rebuked the Vietnamese for their invasions, which the Vietnamese ignored, proceeding to attack and destroy the Cham.[2] The Vietnamese army was reorganized to copy the Chinese army, with gunpowder weapons. Le Thanh-tong raised a massive 300,000 army which outnumbered the 100,000 Cham army, although at a massive financial cost which drained the Vietnamese treasury 1,000 gold liang each day.[3]

Genocide

The Vietnamese conducted a Genocide campaign against the Cham slaughtereing 60,000 when taking the capital. The Vietnamese committed arson and theft and burned massive parts of Champa, seizing the entire country. The Cham told the Chinese that "Annam destroyed our country". The Chinese Ming Dynasty records record the Vietnamese destruction of Champa. The Vietnamese enslaved several thousand Cham and enacted forced assimilation of Vietnamese culture onto Chams. The Chams informed the Chinese that they continued to fight against the Vietnamese occupation of their land, which had been turned into the 13th province of Vietnam.[4]

The Chinese government sent a censor Ch'en Chun to Champa in 1474 to install the Champa King, but he discovered Vietnamese soldiers had taken over Champa and were blocking his entry. He proceeded to Malacca instead and its ruler sent back tribute to China.[5] Malacca sent envoys to China again in 1481 to inform the Chinese that while going back to Malacca in 1469 from a trip to China, the Vietnamese attacked them, castrating the young and enslaving them. The Malaccans reported that Vietnam was in control of Champa and also that the Vietnamese sought to conquer Malacca, but the Malaccans did not fight back due to lack of permission from the Chinese to engage in war. The Chinese Emperor scolded them, ordering the Malaccans to strike back with violent force if the Vietnamese attacked.[6][7]

The Champa kingdom was completely destroyed by the invasion, only 60,000 Cham remain in Vietnam today.[8]

1471 Vietnamese invasion of Champa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't think Vietnam is a holly cow because you are the victims in modern time. Vietnam history has no less of atrocity in proportion to its capita or land mass.

 

[gpit]

The History book is avalaible in Vietnam,

You can read the first page of the history book.

... 自 我 國 繼 天 地 之 開 闢 鴻 庞 氏 首 出 御 世 歷 至 國 朝 黎 恭 皇 有 君 有 臣 有 體 統 其 政 治 之 得 失 世 道 之 隆 汚 禮 樂 之 興 人 物 之 賢 否 莫 不 僃 載

... Since our country has followed to the broadening of heaven and earth, from Hong Bang Dynasty started our life, until Le Cung Hoang Emperor, Le dynasty now: we have our King, our people, our system, possibly, politic was good or bad, morality developed or failure; set up holidays, festival, music, or neglected; person was talented or coward; is recorded as necessary and enough.

In vietnamese:

... Kể từ khi nước ta nối tiếp sự mở mang của trời đất, họ Hồng Bàng bắt đầu ra trị đời, trải đến Lê Cung Hoàng của quốc triều, có vua , có tôi, có thể thống, chính trị hay dở, thế đạo thịnh suy, lễ nhạc dựng bỏ, nhân vật hiền kém, không việc gì không chép đủ

In contrast to your understanding of knowledge, when I read, I do not just read a first page of a book.

Let me teach you how to read a book, or a series of books on a subject.

In addition to reading the whole book, instead of just the first page, you must know who and what the author is; who the publisher is; what's the motivation for the author to publish this book; who sponsors the author; how many different versions there are out; who are the people who modified the books and why; ...

In many cases than not, you may have many of above questions not answered. Don't get discouraged, put aside the questions but don't forget them.

If you indeed only read the first page of an important book of your country, and claim that's enough, and that many of you agree with you, I can finally conclude that Vietnam is a gone country. I'm sorry, but that is the truth.

BWT, what you quoted is not a paragraph of the main body of the book but a part of one of many preludes. Obviously you don;t know what you quote.

Not wonder you guys are so pathetic in serious debate but ranting and raving... and trolling with manchukuo.

 

[EastSea]

In contrast to your understanding of knowledge, when I read, I do not just read a first page of a book.

Let me teach you how to read a book, or a series of books on a subject.

In addition to reading the whole book, instead of just the first page, you must know who and what the author is; who the publisher is; what's the motivation for the author to publish this book; who sponsors the author; how many different versions there are out; who are the people who modified the books and why; ...

In many cases than not, you may have many of above questions not answered. Don't get discouraged, put aside the questions but don't forget them.

If you indeed only read the first page of an important book of your country, and claim that's enough, and that many of you agree with you, I can finally conclude that Vietnam is a gone country. I'm sorry, but that is the truth.

BWT, what you quoted is not a paragraph of the main body of the book but a part of one of many preludes. Obviously you don;t know what you quote.

Not wonder you guys are so pathetic in serious debate but ranting and raving... and trolling with manchukuo.

Great Viet full history 大 越 史记 全书, is the national history book of Vietnam, written according to chronicles, records of history of Vietnam from ancient time of Hong Bang Dynasty, Kinh Duong Emperor, from 2879 BC to 1675 AC. The book printed in 1697. There is original version. The first page is very interesting, it stated that our history is began from 2879 BC, up to now is more than 4,800 years, our first King was Kinh Duong Emperor. There is reason why Vietnamese in majority say they belong Kinh peoples, Jingzu.
Yes, you have to read it in full text before you can troll meaningless ideas.
however the book is not the oldest History book of Vietnam.

 

[Viet]

Nobody denies lots of Chinese ran into Vietnam when the mainland suffered big turmoil.
But if the following history is twisted, tell us where:

Don't think Vietnam is a holly cow because you are the victims in modern time. Vietnam history has no less of atrocity in proportion to its capita or land mass.

The Kingdom of Champa and the Khmer Empire paid very high price for their aggressions against Vietnam: downfall and lost of territory. That was a clear message for any potential enemy of VN.

 

[gpit]

The Kingdom of Champa and the Khmer Empire paid very high price for their aggressions against Vietnam: downfall and lost of territory. That was a clear message for any potential enemy of VN.

According to大 越 史记 全书, Han Chinese Zhao Tuo grabbed ancient Vietnam tribe established by the descendant of Yan Di (Emperor Yan), and called it Nam Viet. He saw the emperor Han Dynasty “wise son of the Haven” and decided to quit from the throne. Thus Han and Viet were peaceful. But when Zhao Tuo’s grandson and down became king or leader of Nam Viet, friction caused Nam Viet being annexed as a part of Han China by Han Dynasty.

Can we say the same about Vietnam: Vietnam paid very high price for harassing Han Dynasty and then downfall and lost of territory to Han?

So don’t whine about being enslaved by the Chinese for thousands of years, as you deserve it per your own logic.

 

[gpit]

Great Viet full history 大 越 史记 全书, is the national history book of Vietnam, written according to chronicles, records of history of Vietnam from ancient time of Hong Bang Dynasty, Kinh Duong Emperor, from 2879 BC to 1675 AC. The book printed in 1697. There is original version. The first page is very interesting, it stated that our history is began from 2879 BC, up to now is more than 4,800 years, our first King was Kinh Duong Emperor. There is reason why Vietnamese in majority say they belong Kinh peoples, Jingzu.
Yes, you have to read it in full text before you can troll meaningless ideas.
however the book is not the oldest History book of Vietnam.

I know 大 越 史记 全书 is a great book, that is why I am spending time reading it.

Answer me: have you ever read it in its entirety?

Answer me again my old questions: any of your internet Vietnamese have ever read the book is its original language?

Dude, if you never read the book, stop commenting it! That only make you more a fool.

If you never read a book and you are not qualified to comment it. Do you even not know such simple logic? Do you education system even fail to give you such a basic logic that a primary schooler should know?

Pathetic!

you did not quote from the first page. You quote it from a prelude of the book!

The first page tells that your history can be traced back to the son of Yan Di (emperor Yan)'s third generation.

 

[Viet]

According to大 越 史记 全书, Han Chinese Zhao Tuo grabbed ancient Vietnam tribe established by the descendant of Yan Di (Emperor Yan), and called it Nam Viet. He saw the emperor Han Dynasty “wise son of the Haven” and decided to quit from the throne. Thus Han and Viet were peaceful. But when Zhao Tuo’s grandson and down became king or leader of Nam Viet, friction caused Nam Viet being annexed as a part of Han China by Han Dynasty.

Can we say the same about Vietnam: Vietnam paid very high price for harassing Han Dynasty and then downfall and lost of territory to Han?

So don’t whine about being enslaved by the Chinese for thousands of years, as you deserve it per your own logic.

After Vietnam was conquered in 111 B.C., it became a province of Imperial China. I never read nor heard that the Han´s enslaved the Viets. Correct is the Han´s tried to get the Viets sinicized.

Unlike The Kingdom of Champa and the Khmer Empire, Vietnam has enlarged its teritory to the size it is today. One should know when VN was founded, it was tinny (pic 1), then it expanded further to the red river delta (pic 2).

pic 1: Vinh Phuc province

pic 2: Red River Delta

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

After Vietnam was conquered in 111 B.C., it became a province of Imperial China. I never read nor heard that the Han´s enslaved the Viets. Correct is the Han´s tried to get the Viets sinicized.

Unlike The Kingdom of Champa and the Khmer Empire, Vietnam has enlarged its teritory to the size it is today. One should know when VN was founded, it was tinny (pic 1), then it expanded further to the red river delta (pic 2).

pic 1: Vinh Phuc province

pic 2: Red River Delta

Viet originated from the Red River Delta, so stop claiming that you ancestors originated from the Yangzi River Delta, we don't like other people trying to steal our history.

 

[EastSea]

I know 大 越 史记 全书 is a great book, that is why I am spending time reading it.

Answer me: have you ever read it in its entirety?

Answer me again my old questions: any of your internet Vietnamese have ever read the book is its original language?

Dude, if you never read the book, stop commenting it! That only make you more a fool.

If you never read a book and you are not qualified to comment it. Do you even not know such simple logic? Do you education system even fail to give you such a basic logic that a primary schooler should know?

Pathetic!

you did not quote from the first page. You quote it from a prelude of the book!

The first page tells that your history can be traced back to the son of Yan Di (emperor Yan)'s third generation.

You lie.
The book is available on my table now.
The page, which I posted is the preface of the history book, written by Pham Cong Tru, he was historian.

 

[Viet]

Viet originated from the Red River Delta, so stop claiming that you ancestors originated from the Yangzi River Delta, we don't like other people trying to steal our history.

Sorry, who said that?
I never heard that Viets originated from Yangzi River Delta.

 

[EastSea]

Sorry, who said that?
I never heard that Viets originated from Yangzi River Delta.

bạn ở nước ngoài có thể không biết.
Bạn hãy đọc "Đại Việt sử kí toàn thư"
Kỷ Hồng Bàng thị,
-Kinh Dương Vương,
-Lạc Long Quân,
-Hùng Vương,
viết: "Hùng vương lên ngôi, đặt quốc hiệu là Văn Lang..., bắc đến hồ Đồng đình..."
(tức là nam sông Dương T&#7917.
Có thể không tiện trao đổi thêm, mong bạn thông cảm.

 

[shuntmaster]

Border disputes in China

China has more neighbours than any country in the world, bordering on 14 other countries. Only the European Union, taken as a whole, has more bordering countries.

With so many fences to keep up, a few disputes can be expected. Here are a few from recent years.

India

Two regions are claimed by both India and China. Aksai Chin is in the disputed territory of Kashmir, at the junction of Pakistan, Tibet and India. India claims the 38,000-square-kilometre territory, currently administered by China.

Arunachal Pradesh is a state of India in the country's northeast, bordering on Bhutan, Bangladesh, Myanmar and China. Though it is under Indian administration, China calls the 90,000-square-kilometre area South Tibet.

Russia

A dispute involving three islands on the rivers that form the border between China and Russia was resolved in October 2004, in a manner King Solomon would have been proud of.

Each of the islands – Bol'shoi Ussuriiskii Island and Tarabarov Island at the juncture of the Amur and Ussuri rivers, near Khabarovsk, Russia, and Bol'shoi Island on the Argun River – was split 50-50, with half of the territory going to each country.

The uninhabited islands had symbolic importance in the control over the rivers.

Japan

The Senkaku Islands are five unpopulated islands in the East China Sea with a total are of seven square kilometres. They are under Japanese control and are considered part of the Japanese Southwest Islands, but the People's Republic of China and Taiwan each claim them as well, calling them the Diaoyutai Islands and Diaoyu Islands, respectively.

In March 2004, a group of seven Chinese activists landed on one of the islands. The Japanese government arrested them for illegal entry and deported them back to China.

Taiwan

The People's Republic of China claims Taiwan, but it is administered by the Republic of China.

Tibet

The Government of Tibet in Exile claims not only the Tibet Autonomous Region under the control of China, but also Qinghai province and parts of surrounding provinces. Tibet in Exile calls the Chinese control of Tibet an illegitimate occupation.

Other disputes

Portions of China's western border with Tajikistan haven't been defined.

A section of the boundary between China and North Korea in the Baitou Mountain area is indefinite.

The Paracel Islands in the South China Sea are administered by China, but claimed by Vietnam and Taiwan. There is also a dispute between China and Vietnam over the maritime boundaries in the Gulf of Tonkin.

The rich fishing rights and possible oil reserves of the Spratly Islands in the South China Sea are claimed by China,Taiwan, Malaysia, the Philippines, Vietnam and possibly Brunei.

China has territorial disuptes with most of its neigbhours, and even with some who are 100o's of miles away from its shores.