The Un-Intended Eye Opener Of 27th Feb:---

[Taha Samad]

Hi,

Coward---always hiding his head in the sand---gutless---. Announced crossing of boundary is an ACT OF WAR---. India declared war on us---. And the pakistani cowards are declaring---no they did not---it was nothing---.



Hi,

It is not only the air force that shoots down planes---it is also the surface to air misiles that do as well.

Where were the SA batteries in the Bahawalpur region---oh---protecting Islamabad---. What about the worthless Spada SA missiles---kept hiding somewhere---.

Over all---the whole of the scenario shows that the Paf was not at all prepared against the first night's attack even though it was announced---.

Pakistan was saved---not because of the Paf on the first night---but because the Indian's were incompetent---.

There are 10 Spada systems, 5 LY-80 and unknown number of HQ-7 or equivalent(but given finances we can't assume a very high number of HQ-7 either at max I will assume 15-20 system in total).

- Spada will be mostly be protecting PAFs own assets. Air Bases, Long Range Radar stations etc [Sargodha, Kamra, Shorkot, Peshawar, Jacobabad, Masroor, Bholari, Quetta + other important facilities ]

- LY-80 + HQ-7 + AAA Guns will be for protecting important economic, political cities, cantonments and strategic installations, here is the list of cities/installations I can think of:

--- Islamabad (capital, command and control centers, KRL, National Power Control Center, nearby Taxila and Wah etc)
--- Karachi (major economic hub with ports, steel mill, refinery, nuclear plant, airbase and cantt)
--- Lahore (Major political/economic city which is too close to border)
--- Multan (Important cantt. with offensive corp. and Army Aviation Base)
--- Bahawalpur (Under thread in current circumstance, also considerably important cantt.)
--- Chasma (both barrage & nuclear plant)
--- Khushab (Nuclear Facility)
--- Tarbela (Major Dam, SSG Base)
--- Mangla (Major Dam, Important Cantt., proximity to border)
--- Ormara (Jinnah Naval Base)
--- DG Khan/RY Khan Area (this area has major oil refinaries, power plants etc)
--- Turbat/Pasni Area (Airbase, Civil Navigational Aids etc)
--- Faisalabad (Major export industry)
--- Gwadar (Port)
--- Muzzafarabad (Capital of AJK)

This list is in no way exhaustive. But I think you get the idea that there are whole spectrum of targets across Pakistan that would have required protection by SAM. And while we are all intelligent in hindsight about where SAM should have been, making this decision initially is eventually a judgement call.

Now assuming that say a HQ-7 was indeed deployed in Muzzafarabad area, then distance of Muzzafarabad from LOC is 25 Km. HQ-7 having range of about 15 Km will not have in position to engage IAF fighters as they did not intrude by more than few Km.

Why the bombs were not shot down? I don't know, but some points to consider:
- Firstly we are assuming that HQ-7 was deployed.
- Did the bombs fly in range of HQ-7?
- I am not sure if 1000 Kg bomb are reliably tracked on radar. I think it should be. But HQ-7s own radar would possibly be on standby to not give away its location, so only if some other long range radar picked up these would AD command instruct HQ-7 operator to scan and shoot down these bombs.
- Why all 4 SPICE-2000 failed to hit target? My theory is released early, not enough flight time. Was this time-pressure due to the AD system or approaching interceptors? Were the SPICE-2000 shot down? I mean the proximity fuse would damage the flight-control surfaces making the bombs miss their target. Although I think if they were shot down ISPR would have told about this on Feb26. Also if they were shot down pieces would have been farther away from crater; we have no such indication.

 

[SQ8]

@Tps43 Check this gem.

Early stage dementia

 

[Tps43]

@Tps43 Check this gem.

Mein jaon phir hahahaahhaah

Im ignoring what you wrote.

APG-68 V9 Vs PESA N011M BARS

APG-68 V9 hands down
It picked up su30 earlier on lock by the time N011M had a lock at F 16 , aim120c was already fired

V9 is beast of a radar. The Americans know their art well. It got the lock and it never broke off till the missile was launched. The klj-7 surprised many as well.

yes but so did Tps77 with it’s performance

I was going to bring in KLJ-7, good you mentioned it.

It comes down in some way to Doppler Radar Vs PESA radar

There is a reason why all mpdr’s weren’t replaced by ylc6

 

[SQ8]

Mein jaon phir hahahaahhaah

APG-68 V9 hands down
It picked up su30 earlier on lock by the time N011M had a lock at F 16 , aim120c was already fired

yes but so did Tps77 with it’s performance


There is a reason why all mpdr’s weren’t replaced by ylc6

Hence the PAF’s “obsession “ with the F-16 and American weapons in general. They perform on cue... as long as the pilot knows exactly what his weapon systems is capable of and what to do when.

This was a case of one man knowing his machine better than the other, and then one machine performing exactly at its advertising versus the other.

 

[Dazzler]

Mein jaon phir hahahaahhaah

APG-68 V9 hands down
It picked up su30 earlier on lock by the time N011M had a lock at F 16 , aim120c was already fired

yes but so did Tps77 with it’s performance


There is a reason why all mpdr’s weren’t replaced by ylc6

TPS77 is in a different league altogether. A monster its own right.

The N011M is hugely overrated and it showed why so on 27th Feb.

 

[SQ8]

TPS77 is in a different league altogether. A monster its own right.

The N011M is hugely overrated and it showed why so on 27th Feb.

Issue lies with Russian DSPs.
Pity those who bought 250+ of these as their backbone.

 

[Dazzler]

Hence the PAF’s “obsession “ with the F-16 and American weapons in general. They perform on cue... as long as the pilot knows exactly what his weapon systems is capable of and what to do when.

This was a case of one man knowing his machine better than the other, and then one machine performing exactly at its advertising versus the other.

That's really what matters when second count. The PAF+f-16 combo is something that the IAF to this day seems to have no answer.

No wonder they keep complaining.

 

[SQ8]

That's really what matters when second count. The PAF+f-16 combo is something that the IAF to this day seems to have no answer.

No wonder they keep complaining.

The same will be of the JF-17.


However, it is still no time for complacency or lowering our guards.
We should expect a much better performance from them next time and hence must up our game by that much as well.

 

[Dazzler]

Issue lies with Russian DSPs.
Pity those who bought 250+ of these as their backbone.

The problem goes deeper as those digital signal processors cannot be replaced with Israeli or French counterparts. The Russian ones will again, fall flat.

The Chinese make fun of Su-35's radar, and Ibris was widely advertised. That speaks loads about Russian fighter radar technology.

 

[SQ8]

The problem goes deeper as those digital signal processors cannot be replaced with Israeli or French counterparts. The Russian ones will again, fall flat.

The Chinese make fun of Su-35's radar, and Ibris was widely advertised. That speaks loads about Russian fighter radar technology.

Export models. Russians are coy about letting their A game out. There is a reason why Russian “M” designations were called Monkey models.

Moreover, where the Chinese were busy copying US tech at rapid pace; the Russians were trying to build upon their pre-existing Soviet knowledge base coupled with some western tech.
The result is that in some key elements they are falling behind the Chinese.
Heavy manufacturing is their forte, microprocessors aren’t there yet.

They will get there after the notes they took here.

 

[Tps43]

Hence the PAF’s “obsession “ with the F-16 and American weapons in general. They perform on cue... as long as the pilot knows exactly what his weapon systems is capable of and what to do when.

This was a case of one man knowing his machine better than the other, and then one machine performing exactly at its advertising versus the other.

Yes u r right , It is more related to system training doctrine of air force in general

TPS77 is in a different league altogether. A monster its own right.

The N011M is hugely overrated and it showed why so on 27th Feb.

And I am laughing at many past posts regarding N011M hahaahha

The problem goes deeper as those digital signal processors cannot be replaced with Israeli or French counterparts. The Russian ones will again, fall flat.

The Chinese make fun of Su-35's radar, and Ibris was widely advertised. That speaks loads about Russian fighter radar technology.

Yes And in general Chinese electronics are much better then the russian ones and now it’s a fact .
Btw Is S 400 worth the hype? I am starting to doubt it

 

[Dazzler]

Yes u r right , It is more related to system training doctrine of air force in general

And I am laughing at many past posts regarding N011M hahaahha


Yes And in general Chinese electronics are much better then the russian ones and now it’s a fact .
Btw Is S 400 worth the hype? I am starting to doubt it

Not the"Monkey" model. Russians have a habit of inflating their toys with hype.

 

[Tps43]

Not the"Monkey" model. Russians have a habit of inflating their toys with hype.

Oh yess

 

[Dazzler]

Yes u r right , It is more related to system training doctrine of air force in general

And I am laughing at many past posts regarding N011M hahaahha

They are not ashamed, as you will find such claims populating their forums still. The MKI was the best of the best in Asia, better than 35 and 22 and what not.


The Bollywood effect runs deep.

 

[aliyusuf]

APG-68 V9 hands down
It picked up su30 earlier on lock by the time N011M had a lock at F 16 , aim120c was already fired

Not to contradict your assertion, but to clarify this issue … isn't who sees who first depends on the radar range + the RCS of the fighter housing the radar e.g. suppose we have a ...

Fighter A RCS 3m² and Radar Range 120 KMs for 5m² target

Fighter B RCS 8m² and Radar Range 150 KMs for 5m² target

Fighter A will detect Fighter B at 135 KM
Fighter B will detect Fighter A at 132 KM

Although Fighter B is equipped with a longer ranged radar, it is at a disadvantage against Fighter A due to a higher RCS.

So in my humble opinion, it is not exactly about the two radars but also about the RCS of the confronting fighters. And, it is common knowledge that a high RCS is the Achilles heel of the Flanker. ​

Not the"Monkey" model. Russians have a habit of inflating their toys with hype.

That mindset of the Russians also reflect on the naming of their various fighter variants …

Modified MiG-23BN became MiG-27
Upgraded & Modified MiG-25 became MiG-31

Upgraded & Modified MiG-29SMT became MiG-35​

Upgraded & Modified Su-27 became Su-30, Su-33, Su-34 & Su-35

Although basic design is the same in the above cases.