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The two faces of ‘Muslim’ Modernists

No offense but why do u even want to call yourself a muslim in the first place? If u believe in liberalism and desperately identify yourself with western worldview and philosophy why even bother abt islam? DO u realize that Liberalism is a western ideology , the religion of post-christianity west that was born out of Europe's tussel with catholic church NOT islam and muslim. Liberalism is an alien european ideology formulated in an alien europe at a particular time based on socio-political context unique to Europe. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM. U trying to mold islam into liberalism force muslims to accept your views shows how intellectually disingenuous u are. And yes liberals in the muslim world are desperate to mold islam to their liking and since they run the state they resort to tyranny and barrel of the gun to hold on to power and maintain the sttus quo granted to them by their colonial masters. Anyone challenging the post-colonial status quo is labeled a extremist at best and terrorist at worse.



This post shows how intellectually ignorant and shallow your thinking is. U have no understanding of liberalism nor Islam. U don't like islam since if doesn't suit your desires but liberalism allows your to follow your desires without bounds . Well that's your personal belief. Problem starts when u claim to be a muslim and want to mold islam and the society to your liking.

Now the reason i say u are intellectually shallow is bcs you are mesmerized by the west to such an extent and so intellectually colonized that u can't even comprehend questioning western ideas but accept them readily mind , body and sole. Since you never bothered abt knowing Islam you are ludicrously conflating Islam with catholic Christianity and superimposing an european socio-political narrative on the muslim world and expecting it to pass in due time? U realize how bizarre and ludicrous that is? There is no concept of separation of church and state in islam. Basic principles of islam are crystal clear with no dispute. Apart from liberals who don't believe in islam , there is not much contention abt the basic principles of islam among various islamic schools of thought. The Quran is preserved and the sunnah is preserved and Allah(swt) has promised the protection of Quran and sunnah. 90% of the muslim world is sunni. The 4 schools of thought that represents 99.99% of the sunni world are unanimous in aqeeda and have minute differences in fiqh. Even the sufis don't differ in issues liberals and the western world have problems with eg. inheritance laws, hudud laws, gender roles etc. The ideas and values islam promotes are so different from all other ideologies that u cease to be a muslim if you accept any other ism and ideology. Islam is nothing like christianity. Islam is a divinely-revealed religion, and it is revelation (wahy) from Allaah, may He be exalted. Every attempt by non-muslims to distort and destroy islam has ended in failure because Allaah has guaranteed to protect the foundations of this religion, namely the Qur’aan and Sunnah.


Btw this is not the first time that the muslim world had to face intellectually colonized people among its ranks. You know the philosophers in the 8th century were also intellectually colonized by greek philosophy so much so that they attempted to reconcile and mold islam to greek philosophy letter to letter. Greek philosophy gave rise to the mu'tazilah and jahamis who were an insignificant minority among minorities ( jahamis were thought to be not more than 40 ) and resorted to violence to promote their very liberal views (the western academics adore mu'tazilah and jahamis philosophy if u don't know). Now how many people remember these groups? General muslims don't even know who these groups are. They don't even exist and are not even foot notes in the pages of history but orthodoxy remains and is flourishing. Muslims know the names of abu hanifa , shafi , malik and ahmed ibn hanbal and have tremendous respects for these great scholars of orthodoxy.
@haviZsultan do u know what the mutazilahs promoted? Even a lay non-muslim who have a kindergarten level understanding of islam would call their philosophy heretical and unislamic. But the mutazilahs were far intellectually superior to you liberals. At least they bickered and thought abt theology , heaven and hell , concept of salvation etc etc much more important issues than what today's liberals fight for that is the right for women to wear bikinis and men to have extramarital affair. U liberals are a joke.



I have a hard time accepting that u actually believe in the crap u write. U should spend your time studying islam rather than loitering in rag tag socialist party 1 room headquarters. Its abt time u come t terms with reality that socialism is a dead ideology that couldn't even stand the test of time of 50 years. Gaddafi jamahiriya jets and socialist palaces survived on oil money btw. :lol:
If religion and only religion was enough to glue muslims together Bengal would not have seperated. Whereever religious rules are imposed there is immense tension in society. Secularism is not an anti Islamic concept. It is simply what has been taught to us and unlearning this will take decades, decades of unrest in muslim countries. I don't want to impose secularism without the will of the people but I want people to think of it positively.
 
We knkw how draconian qasas and diyat laws are but you guys use hush Islam is in danger to silent al opposition

I would suggest you need to research more on this topic, understand what Quran says about Qisas and Diyat. Calling it draconian is not suitable. I hope you would do that.
 
I would suggest you need to research more on this topic, understand what Quran says about Qisas and Diyat. Calling it draconian is not suitable. I hope you would do that.
Ramon Davis aur Sharukh Jatoi kaisey bachey?
 
Wel obviously if we demand secularism in west its halal demand in Pakistan it becomes haram روغلے پن کی انتہا
IMO Muslims shold stop flocking towards the West and respect their local laws. In this very forum I had stated my opinion on this. They mustn't bite the hand from which they take else return to the hellholes which they came from.
Lol i wasnt even born in the comMie era
The people who promoted such thinking in Pakistan were full fledged commies who, after the collapse of USSR, switched sides.
Well when you have mullahs oposing simple dna testing for evidence for rape we know who to blame
Not all mullahs oppose. What has imposing 100 pc secularism got to do with granting a legal value to a DNA test.
We knkw how draconian qasas and diyat laws are but you guys use hush Islam is in danger to silent al opposition
So these are the lame excuses and justifications to make Pakistan a nang dhrang shrabi and an athiest state? If you have problem with a single thing or a few laws, why impose the entire Western lifestyle on us?
Declaring Qisas and diyat 'draconian' laws means that...you are touching the limits now. Do you even know that these laws stopped the tribal fueds and revenge attacks among tribes which countinued for several generations and resulted in innocent deaths and annihilation of entire families ? Irony is that none of the evil is blamed on culture, customs, tribal practices but every blame is put on Islam. Declaring Islamic laws outright draconian shows which side you are on.
 
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If religion and only religion was enough to glue muslims together Bengal would not have seperated. Whereever religious rules are imposed there is immense tension in society. Secularism is not an anti Islamic concept. It is simply what has been taught to us and unlearning this will take decades, decades of unrest in muslim countries. I don't want to impose secularism without the will of the people but I want people to think of it positively.

Had we imposed proper Islamic law in Pakistan, maybe then East Pakistan would still exist.

Some of my Bengali FB friends say they want to rejoin Pakistan if Pakistan becomes a proper Islamic state.
 
Had we imposed proper Islamic law in Pakistan, maybe then East Pakistan would still exist.

Some of my Bengali FB friends say they want to rejoin Pakistan if Pakistan becomes a proper Islamic state.
These guys will blame Islam for the bad roads of Pakistsn as well. The reality is that only a few laws in Pakistan are Islamic and these guys can't even digest those laws. The orgy loving Yahya Khan is spared but Islam is bashed by these guys for the fall of Dhaka as well, which happened bacause of purely political reasons BTW.
 
There are a small group of ‘Muslims’ who have become fully intellectually colonialised and are so awed by Western civilisation, that they have embraced the Western ideology of Liberalism (Secularism, Democracy, Nationalism & Individualism) mind body and soul
Yeh. You mean this guy below - Ataturk. He defeated the European invaders's and saved his land and people from colonialism. The republic (Turkey) he set up has gone from strength to strength. Today it is amongst the most advanced and powerful Muslim countries in the world.

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Then you have so called Islamists. A synonym for medievalism like this guy below (Mullah Omar) who presided over destruction of his country and rape of his people by Western invaders. This is what the genius of Islamists gets you. A Neo colonial land with Western soldiers trampling over you. With millions of Afghan's living under Western secularism as migrants in refugee camps in Europe.

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IMO Muslims shold stop flocking towards the West and respect their local laws. In this very forum I had stated my opinion on this. They mustn't bite the hand from which they take else return to the hellholes which they came from.

The people who promoted such thinking in Pakistan were full fledged commies who, after the collapse of USSR, switched sides.

Not all mullahs oppose. What has imposing 100 pc secularism got to do with granting a legal value to a DNA test.

So these are the lame excuses and justifications to make Pakistan a nang dhrang shrabi and an athiest state? If you have problem with a single thing or a few laws, why impose the entire Western lifestyle on us?
Declaring Qisas and diyat 'draconian' laws means that...you are touching the limits now. Do you even know that these laws stopped the tribal fueds and revenge attacks among tribes which countinued for several generations and resulted in innocent deaths and annihilation of entire families ? Irony is that none of the evil is blamed on culture, customs, tribal practices but every blame is put on Islam. Declaring Islamic laws outright draconian shows which side you are on.
When you have rich using this law to escape justice incase of Ramon Davis,Sharukh Jatoi ,families killing their daughters in name of honour without and repercussions you onow you havr a loop hole in your system this law is get out of jail free card for the wealthy if you want to prevent future incidents like Jatoi you have to end this loop hole and to stop the feuds you need to establish wrot of state not allow killers to go scott free after paying fine that is injustice to the deceased



MAny mullahs and mullah minded folks reject dna as evidence and resist sensible ammendments in our outdated rape laws

And being secular means being athiest?
Ap ki soch ko 21 topoan ki salami
 
Yeh. You mean this guy below - Ataturk. He defeated the European invaders's and saved his land and people from colonialism. The republic (Turkey) he set up has gone from strength to strength. Today it is amongst the most advanced and powerful Muslim countries in the world.

images


Then you have so called Islamists. A synonym for medievalism like this guy below (Mullah Omar) who presided over destruction of his country and rape of his people by Western invaders. This is what the genius of Islamists gets you. A Neo colonial land with Western sodiers trampling over you. With millions of Afghan's living under Western secularism as migrants in refugee camps in Europe.

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Turkey is moving away from secularism?
 
Is honour killing a religious or a cultural phenomenon? Blame religion for an evil which spawned from the very same cultural ghairat of which, secularists and nationalists are proud of...how convenient. You people need to stop blaming religion for every ill of the society.
You think that after imposing secularism, everything will be honky dory, I am afraid it won't be.
The idea of imposing secularism in Pakistan is the same as prescribing jamal gota to a sugar patient.
Most of the veteran proponents of secularism in Pakistan are ex-surkhas, that is, ex-commies, the people who used to praise tyrants like Stalin and Lenin for banning religion, they need to take a look at their own extremist views before declaring everyone with a beard or a burka an extremist. Of course they won't openly share all of their views, at least at the present stage but I assure you that in their private gatherings, these atheists(most of them are athiests) bash Islam and Islamic personalities, declare beard and hijab as farsuda and jahilana.
The hypocrisy is very evident...defy each and every tenet of Islam and call yourself a Muslim at the same time. Stealth bash Islam and call yourself an "open minded" person.

Keep on cheerleeding for the Western system without realizing the fact that if implemented in Pakistan, it will only cause further destruction of our country... both moral and physical.

You want drinking, fornication and gambing to be legalized in Pakistan, just like the ex-surkhas and the present day so-called liberals and pseudo intellectuals, I don't know how it will bring any positive change in our society.
Nailed It.
Unfortunately People here tend to ignore these realities and believe what they want to believe not what is..
 
Yeh. You mean this guy below - Ataturk. He defeated the European invaders's and saved his land and people from colonialism. The republic (Turkey) he set up has gone from strength to strength. Today it is amongst the most advanced and powerful Muslim countries in the world.

images


Then you have so called Islamists. A synonym for medievalism like this guy below (Mullah Omar) who presided over destruction of his country and rape of his people by Western invaders. This is what the genius of Islamists gets you. A Neo colonial land with Western soldiers trampling over you. With millions of Afghan's living under Western secularism as migrants in refugee camps in Europe.

maxresdefault.jpg
1- Read 'Armenian Genocide'. The Muslim Ottoman didn't commit it, secular Mustafa Kemal did.
2- Millions of Afghans are living in Pakistan which is not a secular country.
3- So the Nirthern Alliance guys which helped US of A in defeating the Taliban are/were saints? The other 'choice' which Afghanistan had at that time was literally tearing her apart with bare hands. Keep the sociopolitical dynamics of Afghanistan at that time in mind when commenting on this topic.
 
Turkey is moving away from secularism?
Yes it is. If I move 1,000 miles West and then 80 years later move 100 miles East. Where am I? 900 miles still to the West.

And to clarify secularism is not against religion. Just that the state avoid's direct involvement with religion. If secularism was anathema to Muslim's then why have I not yet heard a fatwa imploring Muslim's not to migrate to the secular West? Million's choose to move or live in secular West. That in itself demolishes the arguement of the secularism is antithesis of Islam. If it is why are people "voting with their feet" by moving to the West. If it is for economics well that establishes the money is more important than faith.

Or could it be that they are proving in their actions (by moving to the West) that secularism is compatible with Islam. The biggest hypocrities are thus those who choose to live knee deep in secular West but then cry against secularism. This is as silly as I devour meat at every chance I get and then preach the virtues of vegetarianism.
 
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And being secular means being athiest?
Ap ki soch ko 21 topoan ki salami
You blame everything on Islam, want Islamic principles to be brushed aside, mock the practicing Muslims, call Islamic laws as draconian laws and still say that you are not an athiest ....You are confused.

Check the posts and tweets of known secularists of Pakistan and you will come to know who most of them are.
When you have rich using this law to escape justice incase of Ramon Davis,Sharukh Jatoi ,families killing their daughters in name of honour without and repercussions you onow you havr a loop hole in your system this law is get out of jail free card for the wealthy if you want to prevent future incidents like Jatoi you have to end this loop hole and to stop the feuds you need to establish wrot of state not allow killers to go scott free after paying fine that is injustice to the deceased
So it will be fixed if secularism is imposed? BTW, it's not the law which has loop holes, it's our weak judicial system which has loop holes as according to the law, the killer can't pressurize the relatives of the victims into accepting the blood-money,,, but still you won't blame the prosecution system but blame the Islamic law....But settling a dispute is not the thing which you want.
And as for establishing the writ of the state, you really think that revenge attacks could be stopped by that way if the attacker is determined? Or the people under the threat of revenge attacks will stop fearing for their lives? And FYI, majority of those who benifit from Qisas laws do so by settling the dispute in a proper manner. A rich guy taking advantage of the situation indicates a loop hole in the police and judiciary, not the basic law.

Just that the state avoid's direct involvement with religion.
And that is what Islam doesn't allow. End of the story.
 
Read 'Armenian Genocide'
It was war. Who told you it was "genocide"? Western revisionist historians? Now your using the narrative of the West to screw a Muslim country. Bravo.

Millions of Afghans are living in Pakistan
They are trapped in Pakistan. Don't confuse trapped with choice. First chance they get to get to move to West they would run faster than Jerry.

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Nirthern Alliance guys which helped US of A in defeating the Taliban are/were saints?
Internal divisions of Afghanistan do not matter with regards to subject in hand. The issue was Afghanistan had Islamists in power in the form of Amir ul Momin Mullah Omar. He like typical Islamists frigged bad style and look the at the hell that his people faced.

Islam doesn't allow.
You mean your interpretation of Islam. Millions of Muslims living in Europe would disagree with that. If Islam truely did not allow secularism why has there been no fatwa issued preventing Muslims from moving to Secular West and imploring those already there to move back?

And I believe the translation of secularism as I understand it means "no religion" which is cheating the truth. Why not visit the secular West and see what how many Muslim's live in land of "No religion".

Secularism is not "no religion". Just that the state stays neutral to religion.

Here mosque in "land of no religion" United Kingdom.

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the only reason why i dont want any non muslim to comment on this is that you don't have any knowledge regarding this issue. it's always better for any sane person not to indulge in a debate without any sound knowledge about the subject being discussed. but you still want to poke your nose into it .it's your choice.
my comment was social not theological... I studied sociology in high school.. that must amount to something.. :)
 
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