The two faces of ‘Muslim’ Modernists

[Luffy 500]

How can you expect a rational and logical discussion when you are backing your claims with some religious texts? When you talk everything according to religion you will simply see every other thing as wrong because they go against your mindset.

How can one even begin to discuss anything with u when u look down on religion so much. U don't even consider muslim's POV as rational since your understanding of rationality or lack of it is based on western liberalism. U accepted liberalism as the gold standard for judging right and wrong. U are too intellectually colonized to even question western ideas and just try to justify them under the banner of rationality. Rationality can not determine right and wrong , good and evil. Rationality and logic also doesn't have a set uniform standard. Its relative. What's rationale to u may not be rationale to your brother or sister. WHat's rationale to a pakistani is NOT rationale to a brazilian or an arab. When u remove religion , u have no bench mark to lean back to when it comes to right and wrong , good and evil. Its a downward spiral to chaos as exemplified by today's west.

The same ideology where constitution was abducted by religious theories and fatwas gave rise to extremism and imported saudi Wahhabi ideology.

Those people u call extremist are also part of society and they number more than your type of people. Don't they have a say in the constitution as well? U are a good example of the totalitarianism that liberalism inherently promotes. Its a tyrannical extreme ideology. And before throwing terms at people , know the meaning behind them. What do u mean by an "wahhabi"? DO u know what it means or are you like the 99.99% idiots who throw this term at people they don't agree with?

Secularism promotes equal rights to everyone even to the religious islamists.

Secularism is the separation of religion from state. Now Islam , the only divinely revealed religion from the Creator of everything that exist , is completely antithetical to this world view. U espousing secularism essentially means u dare question the One who created you. U are essentially saying that Allah is wrong (nauzubillah) .

Secularism is an european concept formulated based on Europe's unique socio-political context that has nothing to do with Islam and muslims. Europe derived secularism due to their tussle with a corrupted concocted catholic Christianity , they didn't have a tussle with Islam and muslim.

Human beings are social creatures. One's actions are inherently influenced by one's beliefs and values. Its impossible to separate the two. Beliefs and values make up society and culture and politics and state is meant to organize and manage a society. Its ludicrous to say that men's action when it comes to politics should be devoid of his/her beliefs. That's also true in the case of the west. They don't believe in christianity. Their religion is liberalism/individualism and capitalism. Their politics is inherently influenced by their religious beliefs.

Secularism doesn't guarantee equal right. And equal right does translate to justice. In short secularism'=/= equal rights=/= justice or something good. What secularism does is that it subject all groups of a society to laws and regulations that liberalism view is correct and just. Now that's oppression by one group over the rest. Its like liberals formulate law X for all groups but law X is against the beliefs and values of certain other religious groups. For eg. in majority western countries civil code (based on liberal philosophy) is used in judging family matters of religious groups. Some militant secular countries like france go even further and dictate how religious members of society should dress and act in public. Equality also doesn't translate to justice. Eg. giving equal amount of sugar into tea of 2 individuals , among which 1 is diabetic is NOT justice to that diabetic individual even though equal amount of sugar has been given.

Secularism don,t forbid you to go to a mosque or not.It,s just guarantee the right of freedom of a human being in a civilized modern society .But if you impose religion all the rights of non religious people are gone and try to make them islamic by force.

Islam is not only centered around mosque . Its a way of life governing all aspects of a individual muslim's life. It effects every single aspect of society and state whether u like it or not. Secularism does forbid muslims from realizing their islamically inspired aspirations. Islam calls to establishing Allah's law on earth and commands muslims to promote good and forbid evil.

Btw liberals do want to control even mosques and dictate what muslims believe in and can say. I have seen plenty of liberals in PDF who say mosque should be controlled and imams should be dictated what they can and cannot say just like liberal European political leaders are saying now a days.

It seems you don't believe that Islam ensures right of freedom to human beings and that islam and muslims are civilized. Now that itself shows how much of an ignorant and bloated ego u have. Islam does guarantees rights to human beings but based on its own world view and historically non-muslims living under islamic law never had a problem with that. Islam guarantees much more fair and just treatment of non-muslims than what man-made totalitarian liberalism ever can hope to guarantee to its minorities. Instead of one law for everyone based on islamic world view , Islam allows non-muslims to organize their society based on their own laws. Now that's justice.

Your problem is you are attracted to liberalism. U are a liberal mind , body and soul and consider islam to be inferior. But u came to that conclusion based on an inferiority complex vis-vis the west and as such you never comprehended questioning ideas emanating from the west. U never questioned the concept of western notion of equal rights , their notions of human rights etc etc. That's pathetic slave mentality. U are a clear case of a ignorant intellectually colonized liberal. Now if u mistake others in your muslim society to be as shallow as u , u will naturally make a mistake and in your frustration may end up calling them all sorts of names like "wahhabi", "extremist" , "terrorist" , "Mullah". But that won't solve your problem of ignorance.

Login to PDF to open this thread and using internet is also hypocritical.Using mobile phones daily is also like adopting westernization because nothing such was originated or invented by our so called superior eastern Islamic culture.Oh now you are going to say those things are necessities of everyday life and life can,t function without them these days.So yes similarly separating religion from the state is the necessity of our current time because that,s how things work .Everything is crystal clear where ever religion is imposed it encouraged religious zealots and their political version of islam i.e extremism.
Look at most muslim countries these days.Those 6th century and khilafat ,sharia days are completely gone and a modern muslim should be modern according to the time.Does not matter how hard you try to be a true pious muslim who see others as hypocrites and less muslims ,you are part of this modern world and this world will change you that,s my challenge.And if you will try to go back to those good old islamic days ,you will only punish your life and others lives.
@Zibago @haviZsultan

Oh yes the typical response from intellectually colonized liberals. Conflating natural sciences with sociology. A bizarre and ludicrous argument on part of the liberals. Natural sciences has absolutely nothing to do most aspects of sociology i.e how human should organize a just society. U having a laptop doesn't change the fact that u have to respect your parents , abide by certain rules of society and not break law. 21st century technology didn't make rape, murder, fornication , gambling halal. Its ludicrous to suggest anything otherwise but that is exactly what you are suggesting. Mobile phones , laptops, cars and airplanes has nothing to do with secularism. Human intellect is not based on whether the country is secular or not. Natural scientific development is a natural process ordained by Allah (swt) as a mercy to mankind.

And what has time got to do with culture or ideology? Your conflation of the two is ludicrous. If you were an Aztec should you have respect for Human sacrifice because it was practiced in its time? Should u laud communism , facism , feminisn etc bcs these are modern ideologies? Suppose in the future a very advance country emerges whose culture is based on prostitution. The worldwide culture is increasingly adopts that advance country's culture. Should u urge muslims to adopt their cultural values and change with time?


Most muslims countries are 3rd rate secular states rules by corrupt liberal secular despots including your country. PAK is a good example of a dysfunction secular state ruled by corrupt liberals. Post colonial muslim world have tried without sharia for 100 years and utterly failed and now getting bombed daily while SecularNationalist are looting their resources and spouting intellectually disingenuous crap on PDF.

I am part of this world just like muslims of the past who also fought evils of the society and changed society with time. Allah (swt) ordained Islam as a mercy to mankind to eradicate the society of evil. Its society that has to change as per islam and not the other way around. History is a testimony to that phenomenon.

 

[prashantazazel]

Amazing read


I wouldnt call Hashasheens the Taliban of that era; that title would go to the Khwarij - in their ideology anyone that was not deemed Muslim was subject-able to death - this ideology contradicted Islam and led to the Caliphate declaring war upon them. Although Khwarij are now extinct; their influences can still be seen under the shadows of modern terrorists.


How is Islam exactly in decline?

The current situation is the result of geo-political history in the Middle Eastern region and is sure to subside.

What is going on today is nothing compared to what Islam had to go through in the past. First Crusades broke the Muslim spirit and morale, Mongol invasion devastated the Islamic world, European colonialism led to a domino effect of choas - yet Islam has healed and has prevailed through any obstacle thrown at it.

Conservative ideologies hold sway when the people are either poor or oppressed. The world is becoming more and more liberal rapidly. The powerful countries are losing all religions very fast- look at europe, US, china,India. ..
Most of the bigger islamic countries aren't doing well- eg Indonesia, African ones, even Malaysia and Turkey are set for a decline

 

[Desert Fox]

How can you expect a rational and logical discussion when you are backing your claims with some religious texts?

Well, because the people in question are "MUSLIM" modernists (or at least they claim to be Muslims) thus the Quran applies , unless of course you are an atheist/anything other than a Muslim then yes a religious text like the Quran would not apply to you.

When you talk everything according to religion you will simply see every other thing as wrong because they go against your mindset.The same ideology where constitution was abducted by religious theories and fatwas gave rise to extremism and imported saudi Wahhabi ideology.Secularism promotes equal rights to everyone even to the religious islamists.Secularism don,t forbid you to go to a mosque or not.It,s just guarantee the right of freedom of a human being in a civilized modern society .But if you impose religion all the rights of non religious people are gone and try to make them islamic by force.

This isn't a good argument as there have been/are secular ideologies that don't promote equality, have been totalitarian, oppressive and have more victims to their name than any religion known to man.

Secondly, where does Islam prevent non-Muslims from going to their places of worship?

Login to PDF to open this thread and using internet is also hypocritical.Using mobile phones daily is also like adopting westernization because nothing such was originated or invented by our so called superior eastern Islamic culture.Oh now you are going to say those things are necessities of everyday life and life can,t function without them these days.So yes similarly separating religion from the state is the necessity of our current time because that,s how things work .Everything is crystal clear where ever religion is imposed it encouraged religious zealots and their political version of islam i.e extremism.Look at most muslim countries these days.Those 6th century and khilafat ,sharia days are completely gone and a modern muslim should be modern according to the time.Does not matter how hard you try to be a true pious muslim who see others as hypocrites and less muslims ,you are part of this modern world and this world will change you that,s my challenge.And if you will try to go back to those good old islamic days ,you will only punish your life and others lives.
@Zibago @haviZsultan

This is a strawman argument.

A Muslim is accountable to God and his Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), not to an ideology created by White men. For us the greatest example to follow is Muhammad (PBUH), and he wasn't a secularist.

Feel free to be intellectual slaves of the West. Have a nice day.

 

[Zibago]

No offense but why do u even want to call yourself a muslim in the first place? If u believe in liberalism and desperately identify yourself with western worldview and philosophy why even bother abt islam? DO u realize that Liberalism is a western ideology , the religion of post-christianity west that was born out of Europe's tussel with catholic church NOT islam and muslim. Liberalism is an alien european ideology formulated in an alien europe at a particular time based on socio-political context unique to Europe. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM. U trying to mold islam into liberalism force muslims to accept your views shows how intellectually disingenuous u are. And yes liberals in the muslim world are desperate to mold islam to their liking and since they run the state they resort to tyranny and barrel of the gun to hold on to power and maintain the sttus quo granted to them by their colonial masters. Anyone challenging the post-colonial status quo is labeled a extremist at best and terrorist at worse.



This post shows how intellectually ignorant and shallow your thinking is. U have no understanding of liberalism nor Islam. U don't like islam since if doesn't suit your desires but liberalism allows your to follow your desires without bounds . Well that's your personal belief. Problem starts when u claim to be a muslim and want to mold islam and the society to your liking.

Now the reason i say u are intellectually shallow is bcs you are mesmerized by the west to such an extent and so intellectually colonized that u can't even comprehend questioning western ideas but accept them readily mind , body and sole. Since you never bothered abt knowing Islam you are ludicrously conflating Islam with catholic Christianity and superimposing an european socio-political narrative on the muslim world and expecting it to pass in due time? U realize how bizarre and ludicrous that is? There is no concept of separation of church and state in islam. Basic principles of islam are crystal clear with no dispute. Apart from liberals who don't believe in islam , there is not much contention abt the basic principles of islam among various islamic schools of thought. The Quran is preserved and the sunnah is preserved and Allah(swt) has promised the protection of Quran and sunnah. 90% of the muslim world is sunni. The 4 schools of thought that represents 99.99% of the sunni world are unanimous in aqeeda and have minute differences in fiqh. Even the sufis don't differ in issues liberals and the western world have problems with eg. inheritance laws, hudud laws, gender roles etc. The ideas and values islam promotes are so different from all other ideologies that u cease to be a muslim if you accept any other ism and ideology. Islam is nothing like christianity. Islam is a divinely-revealed religion, and it is revelation (wahy) from Allaah, may He be exalted. Every attempt by non-muslims to distort and destroy islam has ended in failure because Allaah has guaranteed to protect the foundations of this religion, namely the Qur’aan and Sunnah.


Btw this is not the first time that the muslim world had to face intellectually colonized people among its ranks. You know the philosophers in the 8th century were also intellectually colonized by greek philosophy so much so that they attempted to reconcile and mold islam to greek philosophy letter to letter. Greek philosophy gave rise to the mu'tazilah and jahamis who were an insignificant minority among minorities ( jahamis were thought to be not more than 40 ) and resorted to violence to promote their very liberal views (the western academics adore mu'tazilah and jahamis philosophy if u don't know). Now how many people remember these groups? General muslims don't even know who these groups are. They don't even exist and are not even foot notes in the pages of history but orthodoxy remains and is flourishing. Muslims know the names of abu hanifa , shafi , malik and ahmed ibn hanbal and have tremendous respects for these great scholars of orthodoxy.
@haviZsultan do u know what the mutazilahs promoted? Even a lay non-muslim who have a kindergarten level understanding of islam would call their philosophy heretical and unislamic. But the mutazilahs were far intellectually superior to you liberals. At least they bickered and thought abt theology , heaven and hell , concept of salvation etc etc much more important issues than what today's liberals fight for that is the right for women to wear bikinis and men to have extramarital affair. U liberals are a joke.



I have a hard time accepting that u actually believe in the crap u write. U should spend your time studying islam rather than loitering in rag tag socialist party 1 room headquarters. Its abt time u come t terms with reality that socialism is a dead ideology that couldn't even stand the test of time of 50 years. Gaddafi jamahiriya jets and socialist palaces survived on oil money btw.

How about a live and let policy is it too hard to understand or do you still prefer daesh like laws in the 21st century?
Well these things are totally comparable i mean they had witch hunts in the past and we have blasphemer hunts

How would you feel if you got killed by your family just for being raped it halpens in our society does it make us slaves of west if we want better laws?
Our society is full of flaws and we need to look at solutions that work

 

[SecularNationalist]

Well, because the people in question are "MUSLIM" modernists (or at least they claim to be Muslims) thus the Quran applies , unless of course you are an atheist/anything other than a Muslim then yes a religious text like the Quran would not apply to you.


This isn't a good argument as there have been/are secular ideologies that don't promote equality, have been totalitarian, oppressive and have more victims to their name than any religion known to man.

Secondly, where does Islam prevent non-Muslims from going to their places of worship?



This is a strawman argument.

A Muslim is accountable to God and his Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), not to an ideology created by White men. For us the greatest example to follow is Muhammad (PBUH), and he wasn't a secularist.

Feel free to be intellectual slaves of the West. Have a nice day.

You also need to mention the successful societies in this modern world and try to learn and understand their modern perspective of life,not just the quran and some hadiths.By giving too much importance to quran and hadith stuff you can,t think outside the box.And the same can be said about any religious hindu or a christian.
Yes there are and were secular dictator style countries where religion was suppressed for example the soviet union and communist china.Currently india is the best example where secularism only exists in constitution. I was definitely not talking about such countries.The countries i mentioned are not perfectly secular but a way better than any country where religion is imposed.
Well you can keep living in the 6th century if you think that makes you a perfect muslim

Secularism is the separation of religion from state. Now Islam , the only divinely revealed religion from the Creator of everything that exist , is completely antithetical to this world view. U espousing secularism essentially means u dare question the One who created you. U are essentially saying that Allah is wrong (nauzubillah) .

I was tolerating his rhetoric but i seriously stopped reading him after this .That,s why i said when you make religion your benchmark to judge right and wrong you will simply see other,s as inferior or infidels.Now imagine doing this on much bigger scale and it,s consquences i.e making a country islamic. Is there any sense in arguing with such people? @havisultan @Zibago

Mobile phones , laptops, cars and airplanes has nothing to do with secularism. Human intellect is not based on whether the country is secular or not.

All the things you mentioned are directly related with secularism because they originated in secular societies.None of those things were invented in your ideal Islamic nations where people don,t like to study science and are too busy blowing each other up and issuing fatwas.

 

[litman]

the problem with the liberal and the extremist muslims is that they don't study quran and hadiths and even if they study them they don't know the right methodology. they isolate a single verse and hadiths and start mis quoting it. some people do it deliberately and some by mistake. both these groups of muslims are highly misguided.

 

[Apprentice]

There is no such thing as a Muslim who believes in secularism. You can only be either 1 of the two.Muslim or secularist.

 

[Zibago]

You also need to mention the successful societies in this modern world and try to learn and understand their modern perspective of life,not just the quran and some hadiths.By giving too much importance to quran and hadith stuff you can,t think outside the box.And the same can be said about any religious hindu or a christian.
Yes there are and were secular dictator style countries where religion was suppressed for example the soviet union and communist china.Currently india is the best example where secularism only exists in constitution. I was definitely not talking about such countries.The countries i mentioned are not perfectly secular but a way better than any country where religion is imposed.
Well you can keep living in the 6th century if you think that makes you a perfect muslim


I was tolerating his rhetoric but i seriously stopped reading him after this .That,s why i said when you make religion your benchmark to judge right and wrong you will simply see other,s as inferior or infidels.Now imagine doing this on much bigger scale and it,s consquences i.e making a country islamic. Is there any sense in arguing with such people? @havisultan @Zibago

All the things you mentioned are directly related with secularism because they originated in secular societies.None of those things were invented in your ideal Islamic nations where people don,t like to study science and are too busy blowing each other up and issuing fatwas.

میاں تم کفر کی تبلیغ کر رہے ہو

 

[Psychic]

How would you feel if you got killed by your family just for being raped it halpens in our society does it make us slaves of west if we want better laws?
Our society is full of flaws and we need to look at solutions that work

Is honour killing a religious or a cultural phenomenon? Blame religion for an evil which spawned from the very same cultural ghairat of which, secularists and nationalists are proud of...how convenient. You people need to stop blaming religion for every ill of the society.
You think that after imposing secularism, everything will be honky dory, I am afraid it won't be.
The idea of imposing secularism in Pakistan is the same as prescribing jamal gota to a sugar patient.
Most of the veteran proponents of secularism in Pakistan are ex-surkhas, that is, ex-commies, the people who used to praise tyrants like Stalin and Lenin for banning religion, they need to take a look at their own extremist views before declaring everyone with a beard or a burka an extremist. Of course they won't openly share all of their views, at least at the present stage but I assure you that in their private gatherings, these atheists(most of them are athiests) bash Islam and Islamic personalities, declare beard and hijab as farsuda and jahilana.
The hypocrisy is very evident...defy each and every tenet of Islam and call yourself a Muslim at the same time. Stealth bash Islam and call yourself an "open minded" person.

Keep on cheerleeding for the Western system without realizing the fact that if implemented in Pakistan, it will only cause further destruction of our country... both moral and physical.

You want drinking, fornication and gambing to be legalized in Pakistan, just like the ex-surkhas and the present day so-called liberals and pseudo intellectuals, I don't know how it will bring any positive change in our society.
@Desert Fox

 

[livingdead]

the problem with the liberal and the extremist muslims is that they don't study quran and hadiths and even if they study them they don't know the right methodology. they isolate a single verse and hadiths and start mis quoting it. some people do it deliberately and some by mistake. both these groups of muslims are highly misguided.

have we not heard it before, my interpretation is the right one, and others are wrong... both liberals and extremists do it, so do the people in between..

 

[litman]

have we not heard it before, my interpretation is the right one, and others are wrong... both liberals and extremists do it, so do the people in between..

better not to comment on this. my point was not meant for any non muslim.

 

[Zibago]

Is honour killing a religious or a cultural phenomenon? Blame religion for an evil which spawned from the very same cultural ghairat of which, secularists and nationalists are proud of...how convenient. You people need to stop blaming religion for every ill of the society.
You think that after imposing secularism, everything will be honky dory, I am afraid it won't be.
The idea of imposing secularism in Pakistan is the same as prescribing jamal gota to a sugar patient.
Most of the veteran proponents of secularism in Pakistan are ex-surkhas, that is, ex-commies, the people who used to praise tyrants like Stalin and Lenin for banning religion, they need to take a look at their own extremist views before declaring everyone with a beard or a burka an extremist. Of course they won't openly share all of their views, at least at the present stage but I assure you that in their private gatherings, these atheists(most of them are athiests) bash Islam and Islamic personalities, declare beard and hijab as farsuda and jahilana.
The hypocrisy is very evident...defy each and every tenet of Islam and call yourself a Muslim at the same time. Stealth bash Islam and call yourself an "open minded" person.

Keep on cheerleeding for the Western system without realizing the fact that if implemented in Pakistan, it will only cause further destruction of our country... both moral and physical.

You want drinking, fornication and gambing to be legalized in Pakistan, just like the ex-surkhas and the present day so-called liberals and pseudo intellectuals, I don't know how it will bring any positive change in our society.

Well when you have mullahs oposing simple dna testing for evidence for rape we know who to blame

We knkw how draconian qasas and diyat laws are but you guys use hush Islam is in danger to silent al opposition

Lol i wasnt even born in the comMie era

Wel obviously if we demand secularism in west its halal demand in Pakistan it becomes haram روغلے پن کی انتہا

 

[livingdead]

better not to comment on this. my point was not meant for any non muslim.

my comments are for everybody to read.

 

[jamal18]

I have no problem a man doing whatever he wants.

You want to drink? Go ahead! But don't say 'drinking is OK in Islam'.

I have heard modern Muslims who think it is no longer necessary to fast in Ramadan. Oh, and in these days praying five times a day isn't required. And a glass of wine now and then is not against Islam. The western press will show case these people.

If you're desperate to worship western values, go ahead. Just leave Islam and become a Jew or christian, or nothing.

 

[litman]

my comments are for everybody to read.

the only reason why i dont want any non muslim to comment on this is that you don't have any knowledge regarding this issue. it's always better for any sane person not to indulge in a debate without any sound knowledge about the subject being discussed. but you still want to poke your nose into it .it's your choice.