The truth of 1971 by Sheikh Haseena Wajid

[Novice09]

Wow you have sold your sole (The underside of the foot) to Indians too. I pray Hindus take place of Punjabis and be your masters for ever. out of the pan into the fire.
Its funny nations which look down on Punjabi's don't mind to be salve of Indians.

Being a friend does not means that you have sold your soul.

If I go by your words, you have sold your soul to , and Arabs.

Off Topic : Why do you have such hatred towards Hindus? Just because we survive the jolt of forceful religious conversion by some Mugals or any other reason.

 

[Aslan]

Off Topic : Why do you have such hatred towards Hindus? Just because we survive the jolt of forceful religious conversion by some Mugals or any other reason.

I didn't want to get into this ongoing debate but your last lines were pretty funny eh. Go back and read something then comment rather then listening to your regular media crap and believing it to be the truth. If and by God if the Muslim rulers of the sultanate Delhi had decided to forcefully convert the Hindus, by god you guys would have been sitting somewhere in the history books. The rest is all in the books.

 

[Iggy]

Wow you have sold your sole to Indians too. I pray Hindus take place of Punjabis and be your masters for ever. out of the pan into the fire.
Its funny nations which look down on Punjabi's don't mind to be salve of Indians.

This kind of bigotry should end mate..there are lots of ethinic and religious group here in India...No one is slave here..treating Bangladeshis as second class citizen lead to the division of your country..its unfortunate you didnt learn from it..

 

[Jackdaws]

What nonsense is this? Is discrimination against a minority by a majority more acceptable than vice versa? Are you suggesting that the slavery, segregation and racism suffered by African Americans was not 'bad' because they were a minority? What about the racism and segregation suffered by the majority in South Africa - apartheid. Yet even there we see Nelson Mandela lead a largely peaceful movement for change and political rights for his people, over decades.

MLK and Nelson Mandela fought for the rights of people and communities that suffered unimaginable horrors and discrimination, yet they did so peacefully and with dignity, and within the political systems of the people that were responsible for that oppression.

In comparison, the discrimination and deprivation faced by East Pakistan was nothing, and the response from East Pakistani separatists was inhuman, barbaric and utterly uncivilized.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/26732-atrocities-1971-civil-war.html

As for the refugee numbers, as usual exaggerated along with every other number out of the Bangladesh and India, and to a large degree a result of encouraging the sort of barbarism and senseless violence by East Pakistani separatists that preceded Operation Searchlight.

a. I never suggested nor insinuated that discrimination of any kind was acceptable.

b. I merely pointed out that African Americans did not enjoy political rights. Similarly black South Africans did not enjoy them. The Bangladeshis (formerly East Pakistanis) did enjoy them. If you took away the rights of either the African Americans or black South Africans today AFTER they have tasted political power and rights - they are more likely to follow the example of Malcolm X than MLK.

c. The discrimination and deprivation face by East Pakistanis was nothing? Oh no - they enjoyed starving to death, have their women raped, have their intellectuals murdered etc.

And the likes of MLK and Mandela work against people who have a conscience. We all know how successful the Dalai Lama has been.

If you are such a fan of non-violent ways of protesting - do you condemn Jinnah's "Direct Action Day"?

 

[eastwatch]

Windjammer, I know it might be controversial what I have say but I'll summarize my opinion without trying to indulge in controversy:-

Thanks for sending such an well thought out and well-written post. It is without any bias. It is a gist of all those unwanted things that happened in the then east Pakistan.

Please note that the BD population is angry with Pakistan not that much for imposing an war, but for killing the unarmed civilians, specially the Hindu population. Being minority, they deserve protection by the stronger Muslim population.

Muslims had always this heart and so they could rule over India for many centuries. A manly military is supposed to fight only armed men. But, yahya's army killed only the bystanders and innocent Hindu civilians.

 

[eastwatch]

Wow you have sold your sole to Indians too. I pray Hindus take place of Punjabis and be your masters for ever. out of the pan into the fire.
Its funny nations which look down on Punjabi's don't mind to be salve of Indians.

You are mistaken. We have not sold our souls to India. It is you who wanted to rob our soul by DHAMKI and military force in 1971 and before that. You failed and now, we will not let India to replicate your style. BANGAL KE UPAR BANGALI RAJ KAREGA.

 

[eastwatch]

Being a friend does not means that you have sold your soul.

If I go by your words, you have sold your soul to , and Arabs.

Off Topic : Why do you have such hatred towards Hindus? Just because we survive the jolt of forceful religious conversion by some Mugals or any other reason.

I have read many of the old history books written five or seven centuries before. Once the foreign Muslims settled in Indian north and east, and they became the ruling class, they killed each other more than they killed Hindus. Think of all those hundreds of wars among the Muslim Saltanats and entities. The war fields were all killing fields.

There is one exception to this norm when Ahmed Shah Abdali fought the 3rd Battle of Panipath where about 300,000 Marathas were ultimately killed. But, it was a war.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

a. I never suggested nor insinuated that discrimination of any kind was acceptable.

b. I merely pointed out that African Americans did not enjoy political rights. Similarly black South Africans did not enjoy them. The Bangladeshis (formerly East Pakistanis) did enjoy them. If you took away the rights of either the African Americans or black South Africans today AFTER they have tasted political power and rights - they are more likely to follow the example of Malcolm X than MLK.

'The people of East Pakistan had political rights' (well, largely as much as the rest of Pakistan given the frequent military coups), that is precisely the point, the situation in East Pakistan was nowhere close to the sorts of discrimination and deprivation faced by communities elsewhere. There was subtle prejudice (which exists in most multi-ethnic nations, including India and Pakistan today), and there were disputes over resource distribution, again an issue that plagues many nations today.

And when you argue that 'political rights were taken away, do not forget that through the presence of martial law political rights were taken away from all Pakistanis, not just those in East Pakistan. The proper means to address this issue was by continuing to work through the political system and peacefully advocate for those rights, and not through the barbarism and violence displayed by East Pakistani separatists. The people, political parties and other civilian entities in today's Pakistan have demonstrated just that in their continued struggle to have a democratic system in Pakistan and a fair partnership between the Center and the Provinces in the Pakistani Federation.

Only in the last few months has an arrangement on the vertical and horizontal sharing of national resources and revenue, that is acceptable to all provinces and the Federation, been arrived at and was signed by the President yesterday. Only now are the political parties negotiating constitutional amendments coming to an agreement on the extent of provincial autonomy and rights - after 60+ years.

There is simply no excuse for the sorts of actions the separatists took in the run-up to Operation Searchlight.

c. The discrimination and deprivation face by East Pakistanis was nothing? Oh no - they enjoyed starving to death, have their women raped, have their intellectuals murdered etc.

Dissemblance - what you describe above occurred after the separatists had pushed the situation out of control with their atrocities committed upon West Pakistanis and pro-Pakistan Bengalis. Read through the link and note the date. Had the separatists not engaged in that kind of senseless violence and instigated chaos and mayhem, and India not been egging them on to destabilize Pakistan, there may never have been an Operation Searchlight or any other PA crackdown.

And the likes of MLK and Mandela work against people who have a conscience. We all know how successful the Dalai Lama has been.

The likes of MLK and Mandela worked within a system, a system was available to the people of East Pakistan as well, and read again my argument on how the people, political parties and other civic entities today's Pakistan have followed the same path of largely non-violent political activism to try and change the system and ensure representative government.

That the East Pakistanis were the largest ethnic group in a United Pakistan would have ensured that their voice was heard in the long run.

As for China and the Dalai Lama, China offers little by way of a representative political system through which to advance the interests of Tibetans.

If you are such a fan of non-violent ways of protesting - do you condemn Jinnah's "Direct Action Day"?

Jinnah never planned Direct Action to become the massacre it did nor was it intended to be a violent event, so I do condemn the violence that occurred, but I do not condemn either Jinnah or the concept of Direct Action.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

You are mistaken. We have not sold our souls to India. It is you who wanted to rob our soul by DHAMKI and military force in 1971 and before that. You failed and now, we will not let India to replicate your style. BANGAL KE UPAR BANGALI RAJ KAREGA.

But sir gee half of Bangal is in India and your PM take dictation from India. Why so many cross two Bangal boarders ?

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

This kind of bigotry should end mate..there are lots of ethinic and religious group here in India...No one is slave here..treating Bangladeshis as second class citizen lead to the division of your country..its unfortunate you didnt learn from it..

So now there are no second class citizens in Bangladesh good to know that all people are equal.
And Wow India has its all citizen as equal , in which world do you live in.

There is always dominant class in every world, trust me still many white can't still accept Obama as their president. you can't even treat all your kids equally as one is always favorite.
Even in a family a big brother is more near to parents and get served first during the dinner or lunch table.

 

[Jackdaws]

'The people of East Pakistan had political rights' (well, largely as much as the rest of Pakistan given the frequent military coups), that is precisely the point, the situation in East Pakistan was nowhere close to the sorts of discrimination and deprivation faced by communities elsewhere. There was subtle prejudice (which exists in most multi-ethnic nations, including India and Pakistan today), and there were disputes over resource distribution, again an issue that plagues many nations today.

When did the black South Africans ever elect Mandela as their PM or Prez only to have him house-arrested and sent to gaol? So the Bengalis exercised their right to vote, elected their leaders fair and square only for the leaders to house arrested.

And when you argue that 'political rights were taken away, do not forget that through the presence of martial law political rights were taken away from all Pakistanis, not just those in East Pakistan.

With the losing candidate Bhutto from West Pakistan being the Chief Martial Law administrator and the winning candidate from East Pakistan - Rehman being put behind bars.

The proper means to address this issue was by continuing to work through the political system and peacefully advocate for those rights, and not through the barbarism and violence displayed by East Pakistani separatists. The people, political parties and other civilian entities in today's Pakistan have demonstrated just that in their continued struggle to have a democratic system in Pakistan and a fair partnership between the Center and the Provinces in the Pakistani Federation.

You have to be kidding. Are you suggesting that the Balochis, the Taliban etc. are the new Khudai Khidmatgars and Mullah Omar is the new Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan. Oh, then perhaps he too will be conferred the Bharat Ratna.

Only in the last few months has an arrangement on the vertical and horizontal sharing of national resources and revenue, that is acceptable to all provinces and the Federation, been arrived at and was signed by the President yesterday. Only now are the political parties negotiating constitutional amendments coming to an agreement on the extent of provincial autonomy and rights - after 60+ years.

So?

There is simply no excuse for the sorts of actions the separatists took in the run-up to Operation Searchlight.

Why don't we ask the Banglas here if they think the reasons are "excuses" as you charitably put them?

Dissemblance - what you describe above occurred after the separatists had pushed the situation out of control with their atrocities committed upon West Pakistanis and pro-Pakistan Bengalis. Read through the link and note the date. Had the separatists not engaged in that kind of senseless violence and instigated chaos and mayhem, and India not been egging them on to destabilize Pakistan, there may never have been an Operation Searchlight or any other PA crackdown.

Pro-Pakistan Bengalis???? LOL - besides Raja Tridev Roy I have never heard a mention of such a Bengali ever. The Banglas were committing atrocities against West Pakistanis?? When and where?

The likes of MLK and Mandela worked within a system, a system was available to the people of East Pakistan as well, and read again my argument on how the people, political parties and other civic entities today's Pakistan have followed the same path of largely non-violent political activism to try and change the system and ensure representative government.

As I said earlier, I don't consider BLA, TTP, Taliban, LeT, JuD, L-e-J and their cronies as having "followed the same path of largely non-violent political activism..."

That the East Pakistanis were the largest ethnic group in a United Pakistan would have ensured that their voice was heard in the long run.

We will never know that for sure.

As for China and the Dalai Lama, China offers little by way of a representative political system through which to advance the interests of Tibetans.

And how is Pakistan a rep. political system - how many ELECTED governments in Pakistan have completed even a SINGLE term? NONE. In 62 years. And in Bangladesh since 1971? This is the 3rd or 4th elected govt. completing its tenure.

Jinnah never planned Direct Action to become the massacre it did nor was it intended to be a violent event, so I do condemn the violence that occurred, but I do not condemn either Jinnah or the concept of Direct Action.

Ok - I actually admire Jinnah and think he would have molded Pakistan in his progressive, secular image if not for his untimely death. And I would have preferred if Bose and not Nehru had been the PM of independent India.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

When did the black South Africans ever elect Mandela as their PM or Prez only to have him house-arrested and sent to gaol? So the Bengalis exercised their right to vote, elected their leaders fair and square only for the leaders to house arrested.

With the losing candidate Bhutto from West Pakistan being the Chief Martial Law administrator and the winning candidate from East Pakistan - Rehman being put behind bars.

The South Africans and African Americans had to experience far worse for a much longer period of time than what East Pakistan could claim to have experienced - there is simply no comparison.

And success/failure in one election cycle and one government is not a yardstick for the failure of a movement - if that were the case the South Africans and African Americans would still be an enslaved people.

You have to be kidding. Are you suggesting that the Balochis, the Taliban etc. are the new Khudai Khidmatgars and Mullah Omar is the new Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan. Oh, then perhaps he too will be conferred the Bharat Ratna.

The Taliban and Baluchi militants are terrorists much as the East Pakistan separatists that engaged in wanton violence against non-combatants were terrorists. They are not the political parties and civic entities I am referring to.

So?

So ... given the tensions between the Provinces and Center for decades over resource distribution, the recent successes after decades on these issues, through political compromise and negotiations, illustrate my point about how peaceful activism and participation in the system brings about change.

Why don't we ask the Banglas here if they think the reasons are "excuses" as you charitably put them?

Why not, why ask me?

Pro-Pakistan Bengalis???? LOL - besides Raja Tridev Roy I have never heard a mention of such a Bengali ever. The Banglas were committing atrocities against West Pakistanis?? When and where?

Pro-Pakistan Bengalis existed, albeit in a minority.

As for atrocities committed by the separatists before any Pakistan military operation, I already gave you a link in a previous post on this issue. I would appreciate it if you actually read the posts - it is an exercise central to having a discussion, understanding what the other side is saying and listening to everything they have to say.

Here is the link again, read the first page or so. It was the wanton violence unleashed by East Pakistani separatists that led to the decision of military operations to control the situation, among other things.

As I said earlier, I don't consider BLA, TTP, Taliban, LeT, JuD, L-e-J and their cronies as having "followed the same path of largely non-violent political activism..."

I don't consider the TTP, BLA and LeJ as having done that either, with their targeting of non-combatants and refusal to participate in the political process to have their grievances addressed.

They are terrorists just like the East Pakistani separatists who engaged in violence against non-combatants were terrorists.

We will never know that for sure.

I think it is a safe bet to postulate that without Indian collaboration with the separatists, spiraling violence and chaos leading to instability by the separatists, the Army would not have been deployed to conduct operations to control the situation and things would not have subsequently spiraled out of control even more.

And how is Pakistan a rep. political system - how many ELECTED governments in Pakistan have completed even a SINGLE term? NONE. In 62 years. And in Bangladesh since 1971? This is the 3rd or 4th elected govt. completing its tenure.

Even military dictators in Pakistan have co-opted political parties into their governments and have paid lip service to the political system by holding (sham) elections and having the courts and assemblies validate their actions.

The system has always existed, but it has been abused, and it was abused to the detriment of both East and West Pakistanis. The people of modern Pakistan did not engage in large-scale massacres of each other like the separatists did in East Pakistan, despite the denial of our rights and lack of resolution of our issues under various civilian and military governments, and today, as I pointed out, we see a great deal of progress on a host of political, resource distribution and distribution of powers issues.

 

[TopCat]

The Taliban and Baluchi militants are terrorists much as the East Pakistan separatists that engaged in wanton violence against non-combatants were terrorists. They are not the political parties and civic entities I am referring to.

Hold here...
1) There was not separatist.. It was an official war between Pakistan and Bangladesh.
2) If Bangladeshi soldiers were engaged in wanton violence against non-combatant and called terrorist then what Pakistani soldiers were? They mostly engaged against non combatant and World and You know it very well. I dont want to bring that up here again.
3) How many of combatant Bangaldeshi went to Pakistan and exploded any bomb and harm any of your civilian? India had border with both East and West Pakistan.

 

[Jackdaws]

Agnostic,

a. To say that movement by ANC for rights of indigenous Africans was only peaceful is completely inaccurate. There was a lot of violence especially after the Sharpeville massacre. Mandela himself co-founded the armed wing of the ANC - "Spear of the Nation" (there is a specific African term - I forget) - so while I admire the man deeply - he was hardly MLK or the Dalai Lama.

b. We will never reconcile to the terrorist/separatist/freedom fighter kaleidoscopic view. I am trying to look at it from your perspective - and I see your point but I can't concur.

c. There is no smoke without fire. Are you suggesting the erstwhile East Pakistanis woke up one day, twirled their mustaches collectively and said, "Let's commit atrocities against the West Pakistanis" - if you are correct - what actually led to such behavior?

d.

They are terrorists just like the East Pakistani separatists who engaged in violence against non-combatants were terrorists. [\QUOTE]
Nope. By that logic - all Armies are terrorists - the Indian one in Kashmir/Sri Lanka, the Pakistani one in Bangladesh/NWFP/Balochistan, the Americans just about everywhere. We all know that non-combatants are often referred to as "collateral damage". We must look at the cause that these entities support. That would be the differentiation.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Hold here...
1) There was not separatist.. It was an official war between Pakistan and Bangladesh.

It is the height of dis-ingenuity to call a guerrilla war by insurgents against the State an 'official war' - there was no entity called Bangladesh, nor did this non-entity have any army to fight an 'official war' on it behalf. What happened in 1971 was a civil war, and both sides were Pakistanis. Distorting history in this manner and making such absurd arguments does a disservice to your POV and history.

2) If Bangladeshi soldiers were engaged in wanton violence against non-combatant and called terrorist then what Pakistani soldiers were? They mostly engaged against non combatant and World and You know it very well. I dont want to bring that up here again.

We all know that atrocities were committed by both sides, but I am making the point that some of the East Pakistan separatists fired the first shot and engaged in wanton and barbaric violence in pursuit of a political cause, and that line of action was abhorrent and unjustifiable and eventually led to greater instability and the PA crackdown to restore order.

3) How many of combatant Bangaldeshi went to Pakistan and exploded any bomb and harm any of your civilian? India had border with both East and West Pakistan.

They did not have to go to Pakistan to commit atrocities - read the link I posted earlier - tens of thousands of non-combatants, women and children, were massacred in the most barbaric manner by these terrorists, and they laid the ground for the subsequent military crackdown.

The actions of the separatists, and Indian support for them, was unjustifiable and outright terrorism.