The Role of Pakistan Army in National Development

[Sliver]

Who flew in Ishaq Dar and let him ruin the economy?

dont you know? its for the security of the country? these politicians cannot handle finance - so army will have to do this job. for a paltry pittance of salary of a 12 kanal home in dha, free 200 liters of petrol, electricity and a few tens of workers. thats all they are asking for the most enormous job of being the head of govt institutions.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

dont you know? its for the security of the country? these politicians cannot handle finance - so army will have to do this job. for a paltry pittance of salary of a 12 kanal home in dha, free 200 liters of petrol, electricity and a few tens of workers. thats all they are asking for the most enormous job of being the head of govt institutions.

Its a rhetorical question brother.

Keep pressing on certain points. Faujeets are munafiqeen of the biggest order, their lies know no bounds. In June they were saying Imran Riaz fled to Afghanistan.

Its hilarious how faujeets present themselves as people who care about the interests of the country while being against a cricket legend turned philanthropist.

You even had a faujeet here try to lie that the economy was worse under Khan LMFAO. Filthy munafiqs.

 

[BHarwana]

Replied you politely so expect the same.

If you get the gist, the army should follow a policy of non interference. Policy of no political engineering. Policy of remaining strictly apolitical. Policy of not perpetuating a hybrid regime.

Discussing whether Bajwa should have supported IK or NS on election day or whether the COAS should have employed Haqqani as a lobbyist are futile.

sorry for being bit harsh but if i had not done that you were holding this all back and we were not having a productive discussion.
Now that you have opened up. Here is my real question. How did political engineering effected the economy?
Cause at the bottom of your heart I can feel that you know this economic situation was going to come anyway either they interfered or not.
I am hundred percent sure if I start scratching the linking of economic situation due to political interference it will result in this narrative falling apart cause I also have some historic proof to show that progress only happened during the time of dictatorship in Pakistan.

 

[Zhukov]

Kese kese namoney Hain hamarey is Forum mei. Still defending Political role and Business Ventures of Armed forces .
Koi nai beta, Aag lagti hai to Chuhey ki Bil bhi jal jati hai, Sher ki kachaar bhi.
Sooner or later It will reach your homes as well.
All Opponent groups of your policies will not allow any chance to destroy yo already (Karachi Muhajir groups, Talibaan in KPK, Baloch separatists etc) The only reason why these groups were weak and you were strong was Your support and die hard backbone in the moderate middle class of Pakistan. Not your super duper efficiency.
That you have totally alienated in these two years.

The best i can say for you (Military and everyone under its umbrella) as a fellow Pakistani is , May Allah Protect you from whats coming.

 

[Goenitz]

intervening in every govt tenure either directly or indirectly
not allowing the functioning of a govt to complete
its no business of the amy to determine what the people want. what the people want is determinsed by elections - not the army
losing more than half the country
losing siachen
losing kashmir
having a missile dropped on the country and not doing zilch.

all of the politicians since I have memory have either been supported or directly installed by the military.
what decisions?
the decision to install an army general as head of suparco - what credentials does he have?
the decision to install an airforce engineer as head of PIA - PIA is a business - we need someone with economics and business acumen to lead it - what business does an airforce engineer have to lead this?
why is a lt gen the head of wapda? this is the civilian area- if military blocks the civilians from getting top jobs in these institutions, why would any civilian want to pursue careers in pakistan?
also how or who are deciding these jobs? isnt one pension enough for these honorary generals they have to take over the opportunity and career ladder of civilians?
the decision of the army to do multiple coups - its not the army's business to run/elect/topple the govts - its solely between the civilians. the army personnel, in their right as citizens can vote and stand for elections.
why is the chairperson of CPEC the army general? its an economic corridor supposed to do good for the civilians - not the military. sure it has some strategic components - be involved there through the govt.
why are ambassadors in Brunei, Jordan, Syria, Sri Lanka, Ukraine, the Maldives, Nigeria and Libya are retired armed forces officers?




so the head of suparco has knowledge in satellites? upper atmosphere research? then what will all the civilians who worked their whole lives in this field do? only army has the leadership skills? this larger than life and holier than thou attitude is really irritating.





in your own words above, the army brought Imran Khan, and the army now terms him hypocrite. why does the army need to be involved in any of this? what business is it of the army? is it in the constitution of pakistan that the govt needs to be "in bed with army" ?
likewise nawaz, bhutto, musharaaf, zia. going back decades you can see either the army directly or indirectly ruling Pakistan

exactly - we need an overhaul of people who think only army knows everything and all citizens are either gullible, naive, stupid or traitors. and no questions can be asked of the army - else "the enemy will cut pakistan to piece's" not required - the army is doing the job fine enough.

yeah - the railay does this when the military needs it -strange what guns and muscle power can do.

open your eyes, pakistan has been collapsing and the army has a lot to answer for it.

the citizens of pakistan will hold it together - thank you.

yes - when all the posts of govt R&D centers are gobbled up by the army, what is the purpose of an R&D and all that? as well go abroad and earn a living.

please - enough of this guilt tripping.

@Mirzali Khan @SaadH maybe a black vigo is in my future. i dint want toburst out all thee days but these sorts of posts from @Signalian and @BHarwana really make me lose it.

I have been nothing but civil in my engagements and debates here, stayed away from controversial postings.
if this post leads me to a ban, so be it.

They completely ignore that comparison is done when two things have the same conditions/standards.
How come civilian institutes function if they have no budget and get interfered. The military has not a signle entity that is in profit. Fauji Foundation is in loss despite subsidies, retired get pension from federal budgets, etc

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Wrong title, the correct title that is backed by history is:

The Role of Pakistan Army in National Destruction.​

Here is glimpse of glorious past of Pak Army:


Alcoholic General Yahya ordered massacre of fellow Pakistanis, country got teared apart because of Generals, They surrendered and faced biggest humiliation,

Another dictator came who turned the country in jihadi recruit center, opened 1000s of madrassas for sole purpose of militancy,

Then another one came who did Kargil misadventure, refused to take bodies of Pakistani soldiers, refused to gave them air-support or artillery support, left them there to die and then later in WOT sold Pakistanis for 5K USD each, (those all later proved to innocent after spending lifetime in Gautanomo bay)

US did osama raid, found world's most wanted man next to Pak army installation and glorious Pak army couldn't do it while americans did the operation, killed the guy and leave all with ease. Just another glorious slap on the Army's glorious face

Could not eliminate terrorists for more than 20 years, 80,000 Pakistanis got killed under your watch, you with such large army just couldn't do it. Even Iraq got rid of terrorism that was hot bed of proxy wars between world powers, and much more dangerous / powerful isis n other groups.

RAW did epic sabotage operations under your nose. Destroyed PC3s, & Saab AWACS in Mehran and Kamra bases. ISI totally failed as always by detecting those attacks OR could not even gave 1% of the same response back to indians.

Only thing actually glorious in army is its real estate, its lavish lifestyles on tax payers money.

@Signalian
Piece of advice: When nation is already so much angry then avoid triggering them with such titles "glorious past". Stop living under ISPR's lies. Your past & present is as dark as it could. You can make your future better, if you realize.

Having said that I have nothing against Pakistan army jawans or junior rank officers. Its just few power hungry or otherwise duffer Generals have ruined everything in last 75 years. So when a top General makes a bad move, the whole institution has to bear the fall out. We have nothing personal against army generals, all we want is a professional army which works under their constitutional boundary. A 22 grade officer should be answerable to defense minister. Why can't Pakistan army behave as a professional army ? Why can't they behave as Quad-e-azam ordered them to be. "As servants of people of Pakistan". Your whole mandate is of a "chaukidaar", you are only supposed to protect Pakistani citizens. That's your core duty and that's why nation feeds you with all that money despite and cuts its own budget for health, education, other public sectors, etc.

 

[Sliver]

Why can't Pakistan army behave as a professional army ?

this one sentence is enough.

 

[One_Nation]

Draw your own conclusions.

The only thing this parasite army is good at, building DHAs for rich people:

 

[Sugarcane]

 

[PakAlp]

The authority has been with civilian cadre too and the results were dismal. Cursing, insulting, abusing, showing frustration etc is very different than holding someone accountable. No one is holding anyone accountable, it’s all just frustration showing everywhere. Even if accountability is to be held, there have to certain realistic measures and metrics set for that but for that the whole system needs to be revamped. For revamping, the public needs to get off online platform and start taking practical steps which are meaningful. Basically, get off PDF, try making a change in the society which has favourable outcomes for you.

The politicians, ministers, govt officers, military, bankers etc are a product of the society. They went through a system and thus given authority to make decisions for Pakistan. Nobody gives 2 effs to you ranting online. If you care so much about Pakistan, did you try to get into the system somehow to make a difference ? Nah, you are sitting on the sidelines and jumping like a kangaroo because things aren’t going the way you want. Let’s say you did reach an important post in the system, what would be your steps then ? How would you start changing the system? I guess it’s meaning less to ask these questions coz you are just 1 out of millions of Pakistanis and you are just like them -unwilling to be more than an arm chair analyst who makes zero dent in real life circumstances affecting Pakistan.

Army has expertise in a lot of sectors, not all. There are PHDs in different domains as army allows further education in national and foreign institutes, so the FA pass BS actually bites the dust. Army holds its control over security sensitive departments and projects, deputes its personnel where required which maybe due to lack of funds, resources and equipment in the counterpart civil domain and also provides support and back up in case Govt wants it.

If the civil sector was non corrupt to start with, army wouldn’t have bothered taking notice and then entering into domains which were not required. Army is the sole fully functioning institution of the country. Its functions continue even when all else starts falling apart around it.

The civilian leadership were always worse, the corrupt, dacoits were elected to the assemblies. Even when their is a small disaster we have to call the army for help. You made some realistic points, the people need to change themselves first, they elect the biggest dacoit to the assemblies and then complain, and its not just generals, judges, lawyers, politicians, police. Even if you go to banks, shops, airports, to buy a property, its all the same. Who is responsible?

I would say let's start by keeping Pakistan clean, keep the streets, parks beaches clean. What could be easier than this. Good luck.


Waseem bhai is trying but it always dirty when he visits again. Poor man.

 

[PakAlp]

Army should be called when required, but here the best equipment, best trained resources, and leadership skills lie within army. A civilian counterpart is non existent, not even a political party or a department that can stand on its own and overshadow army in various disciplines.

It’s not the guns or the tanks which make army the strongest entity, there is no martial law so no use of human resource even when there is plenty within army, then what is it ? If it’s the intelligence setup then civilian intel setup is also there and it’s very active.

Imran khan is just another hypocrite our system has produced. He knew he was brought in by rigging but he remained quiet on the issue and kept praising army and Bajwa throughout his tenure. The day he lost power, he started speaking against to what he was party to before - in bed with Army. And that’s where the problem lies. The man that Pakistani public considers honest is actually a hypocrite.

Structural overhaul ? You need a public mentality overhaul. An education system overhaul. A cultural overhaul. The upbringing of kids is an important factor in our educational system. These kids will then join government, military, banking, civil services, politics etc but unless the kids go through a certain level of transformation and then stand up to bring those changes into the system wherever they are serving, the system will never change. Don’t expect 40, 50, 60 years old to abandon their ways and thinking.

But then those who want to change something in their lives, they take steps for that, they don’t whinge online on forums and take out frustrations. They make their lives meaningful through practical steps. Change is never easy.

Look at different departments in Pakistan. PIA, railways, wapda, post office etc. The military has a counterpart to all these using resources like railways or a dedicated system of its own. Let’s talk about railways which is a failing services industry, but when military needs, they plan out routes, number of bogeys, timings, cargo loading of equipment themselves and use the railway lines. Similarly, communications like NTC or SCO. For road convoys and logistics, military uses NLC, for heavy or road construction it’s FWO. Even then military had own S&T units of hundreds of trucks and own engineer units having more specialised equipment than FWO.

Military thinks it looks after the country and saves the country from internal and external threats while politicians are considered unpatriotic and corrupt. The politicians think otherwise of the military in terms of perks and facilities. The bureaucracy thinks they handle all the affairs of the country and have to survive in between the tussle of army and political parties. The judiciary thinks it should govern everything on basis of laws but even a common man doesn’t want to obey law in Pakistan.

It’s the corruption of civilian sector that military stands so strong today and yes military cannot handle everything in Pakistan even if it tries to since there’s so much military can do. At the end of the day, if Pakistan collapses, which actually it won’t, it will be military which be the last straw holding it together.

Today if military fails, Pakistan will break into pieces. No government, no other department can hold Pakistan together. On top of that this nuclear capability is becoming more of a burden and liability than a blessing to save Pakistan in an event of war. The enemy doesn’t want a conventional war.

I actually laugh at those who have made their livelihood and lifestyle out of blaming military.

As an example, Pakistan is weak in R&D and that is where the universities need to take initiative. The consortium of local universities can produce quality engineers and scientists with resources to delve deep into different domains of R&D along with industry setup. There is no blockage to that.

Similarly, the civilian private hospitals are much ahead of CMH and MH in many domains. One reason is because military doctors see and check repetitive cases daily related to wounds etc. civilian setup sees much more complicated cases and the military doctors don’t get that exposure to a high level unless private practice flourishes. In any case private hospitals are on par or better than military hospitals but even then better medical expertise are sought overseas. Shame on Medical research in Pakistan then, military didn’t give orders to stop it.

The establishment clearly wanted a new political party in power (Pti). They wanted the change, this is why for nearly a decade Dr Tahir ul Qadri and IK were given live coverage on all TV channels, they talked about changing system, accountability, reforms, action against the corrupt. Noone stopped them. Since PTI came to power we all know IK and generals had a fallout which lead us to this situation.

I am sure even you yourself would like a powerful and professional civilian setup instead of a martial law or corrupt and incompetent leadership. We all want Pakistan to move on but when will the people change for the better. Keep Pakistan clean, follow traffic rules, stop lying, bribery, elect honest and professional leadership in to the parliament. To be honest PTI did have a lot of young professionals in the party but 150MNA/MPAs have left who are now declared as lotas and corrupt but were praised before IK removal. This is a jahil mindset we have. Hopefully things should improve for the better. Pakistan must change to progress.

Love your message on educational and cultural overall. I don't see it happening for decades though. When you actually meet the people, mingle with them then you see the real mindset.

 

[Jango]

Well this thread was fun

 

[Mirzali Khan]

The civilian leadership were always worse, the corrupt, dacoits were elected to the assemblies.

1. Ishaq Dar wasn't elected

2. Akbar Bugti was installed by the Army during Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's time.

 

[SaadH]

1. Ishaq Dar wasn't elected

2. Akbar Bugti was installed by the Army during Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's time.

Bhutto the destroyer of Pakistan's industrial base was nurtured by Ayub as his own progeny and then Yahya give him the full reigns of the country after robbing Mujib of his overwhelming majority mandate.

How is army not more worse than politicians? Without Army's patronage and support no politician can even step out of line. If they can render MQM irrelevant and stop their target killers with one raid on Nine Zero, if they can open courts at midnight and if they can terminate all of Shobazz's open and shut cases, then they are the absolute kings of Pakistan and no bird can flap its wings without their permissions and no politician can indulge in their corrupt shenanigans without Army's consent.

 

[Olympus81]

How did political engineering effected the economy?

You mean political engineering over multiple decades, how did this affect economy? For a start investor confidence. Lack of strong judiciary (courts, police serving at the whims of the Generals). Lack of strong legislative branch (not enacting laws that holds treasonous activities accountable). Lack of strong executive branch (PMs, MPs, Senators are mostly doing establishment’s bidding). With this system would you think an investor would invest in Pakistan? Ofcourse there are a host of other reasons.

I also have some historic proof to show that progress only happened during the time of dictatorship in Pakistan.

Well you could argue both ways. During military rule Zia, Musharraf’s government were showered with US Aid and broad market access as opposed to democratic governments. In addition, during so called democratic government, there was no continuity as military oversight on the governments took precedence. Of course, politicians dishonesty and graft only exacerbated the issue.

Nawaz Sharif and Bhutto were effectively spoon fed into politics and PM slot by the establishment itself. So any fumbles by them are also the responsibility of the establishment.