The problem with Pakistani liberals

[ajpirzada]

So policemen, teachers, parents and such are essentially extremists? The companies you work for, the armed forces you serve are extremists?? I think we may want to refine the definition you offer - because the definition you offer suggests that there is no such thing as objective truth, just someone's version of it OR have I misunderstood?

this will turn an abstract discussion into different type and kill the whole expression. your comment will take us to defining who has the right to impose? then the question will be what exactly are the things which should or should not be imposed? And then the method of imposition etc etc. and all that is very off topic. Similarly, objective truth is within itself debatable.

my comment was in context of a common person relative to a common person and not in context of any institution/state relative to a common person.

 

[muse]

Why you want to read selectively? When a liberal want to enforce ban on religious education on others than it's equally bad when a religious extremist want to make it mandatory. When a liberal extremist want to walk nude on road than it's equally bad as religious extremist want to force hijab. When a liberal look down on a person with beard than it's equally bad as religious extremist call shaved person munafiq. When a liberal want to allow "any" kind of movies in cinema than it's equally bad as religious extremist want to ban cinema. When a liberal support extra judicial killing with drones than it's equally bad as religious extremist justify taliban's killing. When a liberal shout for human rights for terrorists than it's equally bad as religious extremists have sympathy for terrorists. But i guess, you already have made your mind, so you can't see any problem with acts of liberals and think them as angels.

So once again, please name which liberal Pakistani is forcing people to not get religious education? or which liberal Pakistani is forcing people to not have a beard? For instance I don't think armed forces personnel should have beards, but I'm not forcing anybody to not have it, nor is anybody else -- You realize that the Pakistan govt is as involved with pointing out whom to target with drones as the US, are you saying Gen. Kiyani and his army are extreme liberals?

Please make strong arguments that can persuade.

Bingo!

"There is no such thing as objective truth, just someone's version of it."

Golden words.

That's really interesting and silly -- The sun in it's orbit is "subjective"?? really? Fire burns is subjective?? Really? I understand perspective, but that is only a facet of objective truth/reality or have I missed something?

 

[KS]

Extreme liberals are those who says things which Pakistanis don't like to hear. Like Hoodbhoy in Pakistan And Arundhati Roy in India.

Nowhere does Dr.Hoodbhoy ask for secession of Pakistan or undermining its territorial integrity or gives a hypocritical account of himself by supporting one group of terrorists as "jinnah-ians with guns" or he sees an unseen hindu-corporate-brahmin-imperialistic US hand everywhere.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

....................

That's really interesting and silly -- The sun in it's orbit is "subjective"?? really? Fire burns is subjective?? Really? I understand perspective, but that is only a facet of objective truth/reality or have I missed something?

That is exactly what I meant - that everyone has their own perspective on truth, hence we all have our own versions of it. We may all strive to reach the "one and only" truth, but we all have different approaches to it, hence there can be no unanimity as to what the absolute truth is, or should be.

 

[Developereo]

Fixing governance and law enforcement was not easy under the best of circumstances, and nearly impossible in the present circumstances prevailing in Pakistan. Therefore, the mullahs will likely not retire meekly, but raise holy hell everywhere they can, which is pretty much everywhere.

The mullahs will raise hell only as far as their political umbrella extends. Remove that umbrella and they will behave.

The ethnic gangs will raise hell only as far as their political umbrella extends. Remove that umbrella and they will behave.

The electricity thieves will raise hell only as far as their political umbrella extends. Remove that umbrella and they will behave.

Do you see a pattern here?

Core problem is lack of governance emanating from the fear of retribution from the Islamists and if caught their glorification by showering petals, venerating them as ghazis and vilification of the victim as anti-Islam. Because of this, the law enforcement apparatus does not dare put the lid on the Islamists.

Wrong again. This obsession with Islam and Islamist is more about certain people's agenda and myopia than anything else. The mullahs are only one aspect of a wider problem. Curbing the mullahs will do NOTHING about the ethnic gang violence that dominates Karachi and, increasingly, Baluchistan. Neither will it solve the myriad of problems affecting Pakistan.

I don't need to repeat since the article articulates it perfectly well: the mullahs are a symptom of a deeper underlying problem in Pakistani society, which is that law enforcement -- and governance in general -- is held hostage to the whims of the political elite.

My point, that most parrot liberals miss, is that we should address the core issue -- political corruption -- rather than just one symptom thereof.

I'm not sure I'm following you, are you suggesting that poor governance is due to liberalism or liberals? And on your second point, the Illiberal mindset, are you suggesting that Pakistani liberals are illiberal? not liberal enough?

Pakistani liberals -- not all, but most of the vocal ones -- are not liberal at all.

Liberalism, in its true sense, respects the rights of the individual to make choices as long as they do not affect others' rights. Pakistani liberals, most of whom parrot Western propaganda that sees anything Islamic as barbaric, want to deny basic religious rights to individuals. They obsess about women's dress code and men's beards -- almost as vehemently and dictatorially as the Islamists do. They judge people by their appearance, not their deeds.

My biggest issue with liberal extremists is that, by attacking Islam, they play into the hands of extremists who portray themselves as saviors of Islam.

 

[Sugarcane]

So once again, please name which liberal Pakistani is forcing people to not get religious education? or which liberal Pakistani is forcing people to not have a beard? For instance I don't think armed forces personnel should have beards, but I'm not forcing anybody to not have it, nor is anybody else -- You realize that the Pakistan govt is as involved with pointing out whom to target with drones as the US, are you saying Gen. Kiyani and his army are extreme liberals?

Please make strong arguments that can persuade.

1. Do you know all liberals of Pakistan personally?
2. If you don't enforce your opinion on other than you don't fall in category of "Pakistani Liberals" who do so, than why you are implying every example on yourself. And i am also not sure that you actually practice what you are claiming on anonymous forum. There is lot of difference in theory and practice, and it applies on both religious and liberals.
3. Musharraf was liberal fascist, so is Kyani who is following same policies. If you have little experience of top brass of armed forces than you must be knowing that majority is not religious themselves but use religion as tool for their policies.
4. Yes i can't persuade you because it seems your experience is limited to like minded ones and you are not ready to accept the hypocrisy of liberal fascist.

 

[Developereo]

Extreme liberals are those who says things which Pakistanis don't like to hear. Like Hoodbhoy in Pakistan

What would you call a guy who said that wearing a skirt makes a woman a slut?
Would you call him a liberal?

Why then, should we tolerate illiberal misogynists like Hoodbhoy who claim that that wearing a hijab makes a woman a fundamentalist extremist?

Just because his brand of misogyny and bigotry suits Western and Indian audiences does not make it any more acceptable.

 

[Huda]

So policemen, teachers, parents and such are essentially extremists? The companies you work for, the armed forces you serve are extremists?? I think we may want to refine the definition you offer - because the definition you offer suggests that there is no such thing as objective truth, just someone's version of it OR have I misunderstood?

Why you always try to find mistakes in others post.......And you even don't try to understand others point of view ... Always impose your thoughts on others..

 

[Developereo]

I think pakistan currently needs a period of liberalization before a centrist plateau can be reached,
[...]
pakistan has already experienced right wing politics for quite some time

By 'liberalization' are you referring to extreme leftist policies before a centrist plateau can be reached?

Why do think Pakistan must swing from one extreme to the next before finding center? Why not aim the trajectory for the center right away? Are there some lessons of leftist excesses which must be learned the hard way through experience?

 

[muse]

Why you always try to find mistakes in others post.......And you even don't try to understand others point of view ... Always impose your thoughts on others..

Yes, you are right, BTW, can you tell what I'm imposing on you now? Hint: it smell unpleasant

 

[Argus Panoptes]

The mullahs will raise hell only as far as their political umbrella extends. Remove that umbrella and they will behave.

The ethnic gangs will raise hell only as far as their political umbrella extends. Remove that umbrella and they will behave.

The electricity thieves will raise hell only as far as their political umbrella extends. Remove that umbrella and they will behave.

Do you see a pattern here?...................

If there is a pattern here, it is one that shows many actors providing the umbrellas, and no powers to remove those umbrellas. The conclusion that is inevitably suggested is that all these players will continue to raise hell.

What would you call a guy who said that wearing a skirt makes a woman a slut?
Would you call him a liberal?

Why then, should we tolerate illiberal misogynists like Hoodbhoy who claim that that wearing a hijab makes a woman a fundamentalist extremist?

Just because his brand of misogyny and bigotry suits Western and Indian audiences does not make it any more acceptable.

A person objecting to someone else's choice of clothing, whether a skirt or a hijab, would not be a liberal by definition. Equally, a person trying to force their choice of "approved" clothing on others, whether skirts or hijab, would be heading towards the extreme left or right respectively. A true liberated centrist would let others choose as they wish, and maintain his or her rights to choose for themselves as well.

 

[Huda]

Yes, you are right, BTW, can you tell what I'm imposing on you now? Hint: it smell unpleasant

No! its not only about me i read ur previous posts so that's my opioion

 

[Sugarcane]

@muse today's example http://www.defence.pk/forums/central-south-asia/238008-elephant-pakistan-room.html

for me it's liberal fascist but may be for you it's is normal thing.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I agree. It's up to the political leadership to steer the course of improved governance. The Pakistani military's conundrum is that at the highest strategic level military initiative must follow political objectives yet by insisting on remaining the ultimate authority in the land the politicians aren't going to bother to risk developing such objectives or taking responsibility for them. Why take responsibility for starting a military project if, when something starts going wrong, you can't restrain or remove military commanders, not even for criminal misdeeds? Better to keep the Army in the barracks and hope terrorists don't blow too much up, yes?

Yes. The all-too-common example are schools built with Western foreign aid (because Pakistan's military diverts so much of the national budget to itself) which upon completion are taken over by terrorists or local chiefs for their own use.

It would be better to concentrate on improving police forensics (so the powerful can be convicted on the basis of evidence in spite of phony eyewitnesses providing alibis), witness protection programs (since assassination is so prevalent) to spending money on building bombs, adding artillery, or adding new divisions to the Army.

You have to make a start somewhere. We Americans developed a pretty good habit when people started assassinating our own leaders: we implement the attacked leader's agenda. That's what we did after Kennedy and Reagan were shot. Seeing that killing presidents made no difference or was counterproductive decreased the motivations for such deeds sharply.

How could "liberals" start to fix things? No more empty slogans like "bread, land, and shelter" but a presentation of values along with detailed proposals to implement them and educate the voter might be a good start.

Poor Reagan, to have been assassinated in the prime of his life!

 

[muse]

@muse today's example http://www.defence.pk/forums/central-south-asia/238008-elephant-pakistan-room.html

for me it's liberal fascist but may be for you it's is normal thing.

Yes, of course - perhaps if you look at it as satire - but wait, that's not really tolerable is it? Well is it or not? if notthen Liberal fascists are the least of your problems

See, almost all of the Pakistani embers behave as if they are some of thakedar of Islam and that would be fine except that they are not - but of course if we all censor ourselves, perhaps we will have little to say to each other? what do you think?