The Pilot Factor

[Najam Khan]

THE HIGH MARK EXCERCISE WAS A WVR DOG FIGHT

I am talking about a BVR engagment. IN CASE YOU ARE AS SLEEP for the last decade " you may have missed the point that IAF is training to fight a BVR war. THIS IS WHY they field over 400 bvr capable fighters.

F7PG cannot fight BVR scenario

F7PG versis a PAF F16 IN 2010 (F16 block a/b) = non bvr engagement

F7PG VERSIS SU30MKI = wvr v BVR

Keep on dreaming...there is a big difference between declared facts and actual facts. HM2010 was a very diverse exercise with good element of ELINT and AEW&C platforms too. As for the F-7PG, its a lot more than whats published on internet...when did last time a detailed report was published on it? 2002 in AFM? Don't you think somehing might have changed in a decade?or shall we make our conclusions on 8-10yrs old information only?

...Most of them have received General Over Haul(GOH) in the recent years, which included avionics upgrade too. Fought against Rafale and F-22 in ATLC, there is an account of their performance in words of Rafale pilot published in AFM too.

F7PG VERSIS SU30MKI = wvr v BVR

Oh BTW to your surprise PLAAF's 8th Flight Academy which is an agressors unit has participated in Shaheen-I...which in your words would be a WVR vs BVR fight? isnt it?

 

[Najam Khan]

Only 36 PAF pilots have been able to make up 1000 or more hours on a F-16 till now of which 7 have retired which makes the total at 29 and about a dozen expected to retire soon.

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?module=Pagesetter&tid=62&filter1=country:eq:195&page=1

Compare that with IAF which already have about 2-3 squadrons with above 1000 hours on MKI and the number is increasing not even the 1st batch of squadron who flew Su 30K have retired.... Not to mention the Flying hours on M2k and Mig 29.

Well the list is complied by either pilots or their close relatives, its not official. Neither 36 is the correct number...infact one 2k pilot wasn't interested in his name on internet..it was removed...

The '300hr' figure is a big speculation, it could be possible that one or a couple of individuals have made this achievement but not most of the pilots. Do you know who much effort(hours) is required on ground to fly one hour in Su-30? F-16 requires 8hrs on ground for one hour flight...if Su-30 need 14-16hrs of maintenance you think crossing 300hrs mark is possible, considering the flight safety and maintenance SOPs?

 

[Nitin Goyal]

as the piece was written in 2002 it didn't take in account the twin cockpit concept that we have. How good is that can members put some light on that ?

 

[MadDog]

Obviously PAF is better the world knows it.

Read this book by a British Aviation Expert John Fricker
"Battle for Pakistan, Air war of 1965"
Amazon.com: Battle for Pakistan: The Air War of 1965 (9780711009295): John Fricker: Books

Moreover in a recent article regarding PAF, in July 2011 issue of Airforce Monthly, on Page 49,
Alan Warnes mentions that PAF has perfected the art of Within Visual Range combat. He mentions that in 2008 Exercise Anatolian Eagle, PAF F-16s fleeced the Eurofighter (most probably royal british airforce) with a three out of three score in WVR combat

So the world knows about PAF's skills, pilots from numerous countries come and get training in Pakistan, they know about PAF's capabilities. Pakistanis on this forum don't need to worry if a bunch of our indian friends can't handle this reality...they have a right to think they way they want to think, if they wanna live with some weird kind of delusion let them do it !!!

 

[Sapper]

It did sound absurd to me when I 1st came to know... However I Inquired a few concerned people in the field and got to know that a regular at Barelly clocks above 200 yearly... while the veterans at Pune have been clocking about 300+... I know its hard to digest but normally a MKI mission is of more than twice the duration of that which a M2K does here... It might be a little easier for people to know about the Flights hours stats of PAF considering the level and amount of insider information they keep on spilling over.. but for IAF even your relatives don't tell you.

You are correct about the length of MKI missions, and i do agree that some pilots maybe getting 300+ hours, but ask them how many of them were currency hours as a pilot and not as a GIBS, and then you would understand what this 300+ actually translates into.

Do you know that a lot of two seater trainers in PAF are flown solo after trainee pilot and his instructor have gained confidence that trainee can handle the mission in solo flight. After 25hrs of basic training, trainee pilots fly solo missions so that the hours are recorded as his solo effort, and similar is the case with currency missions. Instructors can gain easy hours by just tagging along, but thats not the prevailing thoughts in our instructors' mind, i.e. not to log hours, but to log solo currency hours whenever he can.

For Qualification for an F16 squadron, a PAF pilot has to log 250~500 solo training hours, plus 500 solo OCU hours on F7 and Mirage. When a Pilot in PAF gets assigned to F16, he has 1000+ solo hours under his belt.

Regarding F16 flying hours. The fact is that after Pressler ammendment, the supply of spares for F16s was cut, so it was very difficult for pilots to gain hours on F16s. To mend this, numbers of pilots in F16 squadrons were reduced in comparison to other squadrons, and pilots also flew lesser currency missions in comparison to rest of the squadrons. But rest of the fleet had plenty of spares and maintenance activity, which allowed rest of the PAF squadron pilots to log close to 200 hr/yr solo currency missions on regular basis, for extended periods of time. But that all changed in early 2000's and spares started flowing in, and now Vipers are back to ~200 solo hr/yr.

Please quote any reliable source regarding solo-currency-mission stats per year for InAF.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[SQ8]

We are looking at pilot hours in an F-16 as a reference average to the overall Pilot hours of the PAF??
Whilst the MKI pilot hours are being used as a leverage.. from a fleet that is NOT prone to sanctions.

I suggest we reference average hours for a fleet.. and not the exceptional case.
if the hours are skewered towards the MKI fleet and do not translate towards the rest of the InAF, then its a total of a 100 or so pilots with 200+(claimed) hours.. and not the bloke who barely managed 100 in his Mig-21 out of fear of safety.

 

[Windjammer]

F-7 PG with some of the weapon suite and flying in formation with an F-22 during an International exercise.

 

[SQ8]

Wj.. I think the col fornoff video of red flag fame may fit well here as a reference material in this argument.

 

[SQ8]

This video may help give an insight into the MKI "pilot factor"
part 1 F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag - YouTube

 

[GORKHALI]

This video may help give an insight into the MKI "pilot factor"
part 1 F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag - YouTube

Here's his insight :
1>Sukhoi use Tumansky engine

2>Mig 21bis carries F16 radar

3> Su 30mki Engines servicebility and maintenance done in Russia .

Now thats pretty insight info

 

[Sapper]

Dogfight! India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Decision ...

http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf

Man you made my day, Well to be fair you ruined it completely as i have spent last 8 hours reading this.

I must say that this article, analysis or whatever the hell it is the most accurate analysis of MMRCA competition. I found 98% of the information provided in this article as Spot-On Facts. Very informative, and very just job done by the writer. Too bad that Indian planners didnt read it themselves and ended up dropping the best options first. Anyways, please post on the MMRCA thread as well (if you havent already).

Thankyou very very very much.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[SQ8]

Here's his insight :
1>Sukhoi use Tumansky engine

2>Mig 21bis carries F16 radar

3> Su 30mki Engines servicebility and maintenance done in Russia .

Now thats pretty insight info

I think there is a lot more in there that you may have missed due to the frank nature of his briefing.

 

[Windjammer]

I think there is a lot more in there that you may have missed due to the frank nature of his briefing.

Yes, like after continuesly getting splashed for three consecutive days on one vis one.......let's try something different.

 

[Nitin Goyal]

Nobody answered by query regarding twin cockpit ?

 

[DARKY]

Well the list is complied by either pilots or their close relatives, its not official. Neither 36 is the correct number...infact one 2k pilot wasn't interested in his name on internet..it was removed...

The '300hr' figure is a big speculation, it could be possible that one or a couple of individuals have made this achievement but not most of the pilots. Do you know who much effort(hours) is required on ground to fly one hour in Su-30? F-16 requires 8hrs on ground for one hour flight...if Su-30 need 14-16hrs of maintenance you think crossing 300hrs mark is possible, considering the flight safety and maintenance SOPs?

I never told most of them do... usually a Regular MKI pilot does above 200hrs/annum... It could have been more but thanks to the Engines which needed to be overhauled around 700hrs or so however there have been inputs that it has been sorted out and increased to above 1000hrs on later Al-31FPs which came with phase II and III.... what I am referring is to is the Hawks sqn. which flew Su 30K... they have pilots who clocked 300hr/annum... and that was known to me around the redflag 2008..... I am sure a few from Rihno and lightning would also be clocking the same in recent times... these are the Vintage MKI squadrons the elite among elite who flew Mig 21 in their early days and yes they were masters at that plane.... the best of IAF pilots are those who have come after flying Mig 21.

---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

This video may help give an insight into the MKI "pilot factor"
part 1 F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag - YouTube

A drunk IAF pilot would be saying the same for his AF... Don't understand why some people have to take his words as rules and facts... It can be seen how is he praising USAF old planes at the same time expect his govt. to fund and replace them with F-22... pathetic...