The Pilot Factor

[SQ8]

Yes, like after continuesly getting splashed for three consecutive days on one vis one.......let's try something different.

Lol.. that is fairly typical.. If they arent winning.. either quit..or whine about it being "unfair".

 

[SQ8]

Yes yes.. The video made a little fun of the MKI and we have the defenders coming up with all sorts of canards.
I wonder if I should convey the idea that USAF pilots conduct press briefings drunk to a certain ex-USAF pilot.
Pathetic..

 

[GORKHALI]

I think there is a lot more in there that you may have missed due to the frank nature of his briefing.

Well if Tumansky and Israeli radar is frankness ,then what more I missed there..

Su 30mki not using their radar at combat mode but in training mode.

Links are different so no compartibilty with their AWACS.

Below is the link what was actual their Red flag 08
Livefist: LiveFist Column: Vishnu Som first-hand on what really happened at Red Flag 08

 

[SQ8]

Well if Tumansky and Israeli radar is frankness ,then what more I missed there..

Su 30mki not using their radar at combat mode but in training mode.

Links are different so no compartibilty with their AWACS.

Below is the link what was actual their Red flag 08
Livefist: LiveFist Column: Vishnu Som first-hand on what really happened at Red Flag 08

Which is fairly logical..
Did you miss Col fornoff's comment on how the french were there to snoop?
Even the raptor never uses the combat mode in training ex such as ATLC.

 

[DARKY]

Yes yes.. The video made a little fun of the MKI and we have the defenders coming up with all sorts of canards.
I wonder if I should convey the idea that USAF pilots conduct press briefings drunk to a certain ex-USAF pilot.
Pathetic..

Rather I see him parsing MKI against other USAF planes but not ruling them out and advocating the need for F-22... which is a compliment in itself.... If you are ready to take it with an open mind... drunk or not drunk...he made a joke of his professionalism conducting a press briefing... which is against the conduct of militarily men every where... he could have held a private session and not let the video be posted on internet.... It would have been better If he were a politician.

Winning or not winning.... I would post a detailed analysis of the video for you to decide...

 

[GORKHALI]

Which is fairly logical..
Did you miss Col fornoff's comment on how the french were there to snoop?
Even the raptor never uses the combat mode in training ex such as ATLC.

But they got AWACS and latest IFF on their side so is Rafale ..Rafale was using Spectra EW too and If you read that blog it clearly says once AWACS availablity is low then many of jets including Su 30mki were shot down due to fagricides..

 

[SQ8]

Rather I see him parsing MKI against other USAF planes but not ruling them out and advocating the need for F-22... which is a compliment in itself.... If you are ready to take it with an open mind... drunk or not drunk...he made a joke of his professionalism conducting a press briefing... which is against the conduct of militarily men every where... he could have held a private session and not let the video be posted on internet.... It would have been better If he were a politician.

Winning or not winning.... I would post a detailed analysis of the video for you to decide...

His mistake on the press briefing was not his alone.
It was a local media and DV event at Nellis. Nothing Classified.
he may have taken the fall.
Moreover.. if not for the massive PR fallout in India.
this would have gone unnoticed by most laymen.

I do not disagree that he praised the MKI.
I stated it for reference on operational issues that the MKi may have been facing..
specifically with the pilot exp and the BISON lineage comments of his.

I hope the analysis is from an expert with pilot hours?

 

[DARKY]

This video may help give an insight into the MKI "pilot factor"
part 1 F-15 pilot opinion about the SU-30 MKI at Red Flag - YouTube

Here is a good analysis which I found.

Discussion on the Su-30MKI. I stands for 'Indian', 'Su-30M' is the Russian designation for theie newest fighter and 'K' means that its an export version. These were version five airplanes, they had vectored thrust, canards, all the advanced weapons the Russians build, including the AMRAAMSKI – their active radar missile, and the R-73 which is there IR missile, which has a 30 mile range on it. Nothing classified, everything I say can be found in Janes website.

We had them here at Mountain Home for two weeks where we told them how to fly for Red Flag. And a couple of things happened.

Firstly, the Tumansky engines are very suseptible to FOD (Foreign Object Damage). Now the reason thats a big deal is because they asked for a 1 minute spacing between take offs. At Red Flag with nearly 50-60 aircraft supposed to take off, if you have one person who will wait one minute between each take off to launch these six aircraft... yeah.... right, they can go find some other place to fly. So we trained with them, worked with them, and got them to shorten that down to 45 seconds, still not acceptable. But what we did was send these guys out first and ask them to wait for everyone else, since they had enough gas fuel, they would go up and wait for everyone else. They were very concerned about FOD and how Russian engines are not nearly as reliable as Americans. One of the things the Indians were very disapointed in, if an engine breaks down because of FOD, the Russians make them send the engine back to Russia, then you'll send you back a new one. So its not the ideal situation for them here in the United States because they have no spare engines here.

How did they Fly? There is a lot of stuff on the subject in the newspapers and magazines about this airplane. There's a great video on youtube, where somebody shows the F-22 flying its demo, and the Su-30MK, side by side, and he does the exact same demonstration, as the F-22. And an airshow, then can do the same demonstration. The reality is, that's about as close as the airplanes ever get. When you compare it with US airplanes; where does it stand up against the F-16 and F-15, it's a tad bit better than we are. And that's pretty impressive, it has better radar, more thrust, vectored thrust, longer ranged weapons, so it's pretty impressive. The Sukhoi is a tad bit better (holds arm at chest level, and the other arm signifying the Sukhoi a wee bit higher). But now compare with the F-22 Raptor, the raptor is here. (holds palm way above his head - signifying that the aircraft is much better). OK, next.

When you compare it with out airplanes, the F-16 and F-15, it's a tad bit better than we are

But now compare with the F-22 Raptor, the raptor is here.

Now coming to the maneuvering. We did a lot of 1 to 1 fighting with it.... and we were very concerned, because in Cope Indias when we went over to India and fought them, they always had their best pilots. We always fought them at the 'Indian Nellis' and they always had their best pilots flying. We always had our operational unit based out of Kadena where the experience ratio is 80% inexperienced guys with less than 500hrs flying time and 20% experienced. The 20% were fairly experienced but they came back from a staff jobs so they really hadn't had a lot of time flying. Anyway at Cope India, we held our own, but the Indians pounded their chests - they said we beat them more than they beat us – and that was true there.

Now they come to Mountain Home, and the Su-30 unit that they bring was a regular operational unit – with an experience mix of about 50-50 (experienced vs inexperienced). Their experienced guys had all come off the MiG-21 Bison.. The MiG-21 bison is a pretty neat airplane. It is based on the MiG-21 as many of you guys know from the Vietnam (War) era, but upgraded with an F-16 radar built by the Israelis in the nose, active radar missile, and they carry an Israeli jammer on it would practically make them invisible to our legacy radar in the F-15 and F-16.

Remember days in 4477th (4477 Test and Evaluation Squadron)... MiG-21 had the capability to get into the scissors with you, 110 knots, 60 degrees nose high, go from 10,000 feet to 20,000 feet, very manoeuvrable airplane, but it didn't have any good weapons. Now it has high off bore sight Archer missile, helmet mounted sight, active missile, and a jammer that gets it into the merge, good radar, so that's the plane the SU-30 experienced pilots came out of and they were pretty good in the engaged fight.

Well we get them to Mountain Home and we let the operational guys fight... and then a couple of things happened. Amazingly, we dominated - not with a clean F-15 i.e. Without any wingtanks and other stores, but we dominated with an F-15 in wartime configuration i.e. 4 missiles onboard, wingtanks, and they're sitting there in clean Su-30s except for pylons which did not have anything on it except a ACMI pod. They were amazed, matter of fact they were floored to the point after the first 3 days, they didn't want any more 1 vs 1 stuff. Lets move on the something else (laughs). Funny 'cause in India, they wanted only 1 to 1 - cause they were winning at that.

A quick word on the airplane. Vectored thrust. The Raptor has vectored thrust, but its two dimensional and works only in the pitch mode. When the airplane pulls, and it gets past a certain AoA (Angle of Attack), the vectored thrust kicks in and drives the airplane around. In the Su-30, instead of having it in the pitch, it has TVC in a V. It doesnt have to be in a post stall manoevering.... the TVC would kick in and push the aircraft the direction when the pilot engages the switch on the stick. All this is formidable on paper but what you would know is that with the TVC kicking in, its a huge aircraft, and thrusting such a huge aircraft in that direction creates a lot of drag. It's a biiig airplane. A huge airplane. So what happens is when it moves its nose around, its sinking. We had enough experience with the F-22. which has up/down TVC nozzles.

What would happen is that the in a merge with the F-22... From our experience, that's the only way you would get the F-22. and the only way - this happens only if there is an inexperienced pilot because the experienced ones never make the mistake. You would be pulling in scissor fight hoping you would get the F-22 in your sights (laughs ). The F22 can sustain a turn rate of 28 deg per second at 20,000 feet while the F-15 can get an instantaneous rate of 21 and a sustained rate of 15-16 degrees. So you are pulling and hoping. Post stall, maneuver, the *** end drops and instead of going up, it just drops in mid air and the airplane will rotate with its nose up. This is where the Eagle or Viper pilot would pull up vertical, switch to guns, then come down and take a shot at the F-22. Of course you have to first get in close to do this, most probably the F-22 will kill you before that.

The Su-30? No problem. Big airplane. Big cross section. Jamming to get to the merge, so you have to fight close... he has 22 - 23 degrees per second sustained turn rate. We've been fighting the Raptor, so we've been going oh dude, this is easy. So as we're fighting him, all of a sudden you'd see the *** end kick down, going post stall - but now he starts falling from the sky. The F-15 wouldn't even have to pull up. slight pull up on the stick, engage guns, come down and drill his brains out.

While on paper, he has vectored thrust, all these great weapons and everything, he looks the same as a Raptor, he's nowhere near the same. So that was a really good thing for us to find out, that we really didn't know until this last excercise. Now, what I'm scared of, is congress is going to hear that and go 'great we don't need to buy any more airplanes... no no no, we used to be way ahead of them, now they're right up close to us and just a little bit higher. I say that they're just a little bit better than us, is because when there pilots learn how to fly, they'll be able to beat the F-16 and F-15, on a regular basis. Right now, they use TVC and just go into post stall.... so it's only a matter of time before they learn.

As far as the Red Flag went, we also had the French out here. The French were going to get the Mirage 2000 dash 5, one of their older airplanes, but the moment they knew the Indians were getting the Sukhois they decided to send the Rafales - their latest, advanced jet. 90% of the time, they followed the Indians in, but they never really came into the merge. Like anyone of you who has flown in Desert Storm (Iraq) and Afghanistan, they would do local flights over Bagram, Bahrain and Alseraj and say we participated, but what they were really doing is just sniffing electronically and finding out how our radars work. And that's really all they did out here.... came out here with all the electronic receiving equipments and sucked out all the trons in the air.

One thing about the IAF - they learnt their lessons very well at Mountain Home, they were extremely professional - they never flew out of the airspace which we were very concerned about. They had zero training rule violations. And that in itself was incredible. We were very impressed and thanked them so much because they were very very professional.

Where they had problems was they killed a lot of friends. Red Flag has changed now, the first week of Red Flag is basically large force deployment and the second week is about a campaign.... where the surface to air missiles come up. What was happening was that they did not have combat I.D capability.

The Koreans bought in their brand spankin' new F-15Ks. beautiful aircraft, with AESA radar and all like on the F-22. Had Israeli targeting and jamming pods on them. Incredible airplanes. Very professional also. But they had less than 50 hours total on the F-15 it and none on the airplane, they were still learning the aircraft. So it did not have any significant impact.

You know what was happening is that they didn't have the datalink with the Awacs. Big internet data links. The Koreans, the French and us could see the complete picture on the HUD, but the IAF had to ask the AWACS. they would ask about a target ahead, "Contact on my nose 22 miles, friendly or hostile?" Awacs would say "No hostile within 40 miles of you" then "Fox2." (laughs) The first two days they got hit bad, they were getting shot down while waiting for answers so they decided to kill the other guy fast without knowing.. better you die than me. So they had a fairly high number of fratricides. But they took the fratricides very seriously.

So while Nellis is about training with people who we will go to war with, Red Flag Alaska: This is different from Red Flag Nellis. In Alaska we exercise for friendship building. Most countries that fly there are in a conflict with each other. The Indians really wanted to participate in Red Flag Nellis, so they could mix right in and be a part of the coalition, and they learned, in a big way, that, that, wouldn't happen.

Was the AESA radar in the Indian aircraft...? Well the Indian is PESA which is not active but passive, as opposed to AESA. Huge difference, because and actively scanned AESA pings more, and sees more, and is more accurate, than just a passively scanned radar. PESA is good but ends up having more technical problems in discriminating, and finding the right guy.

Some guy said F-15 was last dog fighting airplane, he discounted the fact the F-22 was really terrific in the fight...? I think the Raptor is the next great dogfighter we have. Reason is, electronic jamming, and not only electronic jamming, but we don't carry enough missiles. We're going to have to go in with guns. Gonna happen and thank god the Raptor still has a gun on it. It's fast, its manoeuvrable, .... and the Block 50 (and 52 EHRM P&W FTW), is pretty good dogfighter also, so these aircraft, the F-15, Block 50 F-16, and the Raptor, are still very capable aircraft, because when the Bison MiG-21 that gets in unseen with the small RCS and a big jamming pod.... going to need manoeuvrability.

What about the F-35? Let's save that for another discussion. We do too much work on it at this moment, but we'll save that for another time.

Now the Analysis.

About the speaker

Colonel Terrence Fornof (Colonel is equivalent to a Group Captain in the IAF) is an F-15 pilot and the Director of the Requirements and Testing office at the United States Air Force Warfare Center, Nellis AFB, Nevada. The lecture above is a private briefing in August 2008 to a group called the “Daedalians”. The Daedalians are a local group of retired military pilots.

Per the press statement handed out by Nellis AFB: “Col. Fornof did not mean to offend any U.S. allied forces, as he knows firsthand the importance of training with allied forces and the awesome firepower they bring to the fight. His comments during this briefing were his personal opinions and not those of U.S. Air Force Warfare Center or of the Air Force. “

Comments and Analysis

Despite Col. Fornof having observed Red Flag up close, his comments should not be treated as the gospel truth - there is a possibility that he is ‘playing to the gallery’. His comments carry weight since he is an operational pilot with the USAF but he certainly cannot cover the entire exercise and has no inside knowledge of the way IAF ‘fought’. Nevertheless, even though his comments appear to be negative about the IAF to the uninformed listener; overall he has actually praised the IAF and its performance.

The Su-30MKI did not use the data link in the exercise unlike the other air forces. The reason being the HAL supplied system is not compatible with NATO data links – neither is the system required to be compatible with NATO. The speaker clearly mentions that the high fratricide ratio in the kills was because of this reason. While NATO air forces are designed to inter operate with each other and carry out joint missions, the IAF is not.

Su-30MKI is equipped with its own data link which can share target information across multiple fighters. IAF is presently inducting A-50EI Phalcon AEW&C aircraft. Red Flag and other exercises before it have seen IAF working very closely with the AWACS crew of the other air force. Operational Data Link (ODL) will be provided to all fighters in the IAF over the coming years.

The IFF system used by IAF is not compatible with NATO standard, hence the need for verbal communication with the controller.

The aircraft were operating their radars on training mode since the actual signals with which the Bars radar operates are kept secret.

The high mix of highly experienced pilots in Ex Cope India, if true, cannot be consistent across all sqns that were involved in the exercise. During Cope India, the 24 Sqn operating Su-30K/MK was first Flanker unit in the IAF and only one of two Su-30 units in the entire IAF at that time. To find a concentration of senior pilots in these squadrons will not be unexpected given that these units will be forging doctrines and tactics and building up a pool of pilots. Per article on Cope India here; “Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India's top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots.”. Moreover, the mix of experience needs to be examined for the USAF squadrons as well. The aggressor squadron at Nellis and the F-22 attracts the best in the USA.

MiG-21 Bison does not have an Israeli radar as noted in the lecture. The type is equipped with a Phazotron Kopyo (spear) unit. The Kopyo radar has a 57km detection range against a 5 m^2 (54ft^2) radar cross section, or fighter-sized target. It can track eight targets and shoot at two simultaneously.

Su-30MKI is equipped with Saturn AL-31FP engines, not Turmansky as mentioned in the lecture

Soviet era aircraft were designed to operate from poorly prepared airfields. For example; MiG-29 closes its intakes during taxi and take-off to avoid ingestion of FOD thrown up by the front wheels. In this state the engines are supplied air thru louvres located on upper surface of the leading edge. This design feature is at the cost of significant internal fuel capacity and hence has been eliminated in newer MiG-29 versions starting with the K/KUB variants. Flanker come with lighter anti-FOD grills in the intakes as well as wheel fenders that catch FOD. IAF has precautions built into their SOPs – which may be overlooked in case of war or any such exigency. Since the deployment was far away from home base in the USA, with no spares support and related infrastructure it was well worth to observe strict adherence to SOPs instead to being stuck with a grounded aircraft!

This is not the first time the MiG-21 Bison has been praised for successes during dissimilar air combat training (DACT) – even during previous USAF exercise and internal IAF exercises pilots are known to have scored ‘kills’ against more advanced adversaries. The small size (lower visual signature) and inherently small radar cross section coupled with modern avionics, radar, effective jammers, precision guided munitions and missiles (R-73, R-77) make Bison one of the best fighters in IAF after Su-30 and Mirage-2000. IAF’s has had good experience with small jets such as Gnat which earned the reputation of “Sabre Slayer” in the 1965 war with Pakistan. The under-development LCA Tejas promises to carry on this legacy when it replaces the Bison.

Under the glare of the world’s attention the IAF pilots, crew and their aircraft have clearly acquitted themselves well in Ex Red Flag 2008. This exercise was the most complex environment IAF worked in, even more than the Cope Thunder exercise in Alaska where Jaguar IS fighters had participated. The challenges faced were because of the operational environment, training rules and airspace restriction where the IAF is not expected to fight a war in any case. Shortcomings must have come up – but then that is exactly why IAF is training for.

Exercise Red Flag 2008-4 / Su-30MKI vs F-15, F-16, F-22

There are a few more thing which came out later... however I feel this is enough for you to decide....

 

[SQ8]

But they got AWACS and latest IFF on their side so is Rafale ..Rafale was using Spectra EW too and If you read that blog it clearly says once AWACS availablity is low then many of jets including Su 30mki were shot down due to fagricides..

If you are referring to Mr Aroor's blog.. No thank you.. I have better things to do.
However..I agree that the Indians were at a distinct disadvantage in Red flag due to their incompatibility with the rest of the force.
Which is highlighted by col fornoff in the complete video.

Darky..
who made the analysis?
it helps in judging the viewpoint.

I would prefer a more "neutral" source.
or perhaps one from the other side.

The col does make many mistake in exact equipment types.
but at the same time and as mentioned in the analysis as well.
its is a casual briefing.
It is not however.. completely inaccurate.
What the "analyst" here seems to be trying to do is just restate and justify issues.
For eg..the FOD theory would hold weight if not for the fact that the rest of the aircraft at red flag operated within training conditions with better frequency.

In the end though.. he seems to be accepting the video's conclusions.

 

[DARKY]

His mistake on the press briefing was not his alone.
It was a local media and DV event at Nellis. Nothing Classified.
he may have taken the fall.
Moreover.. if not for the massive PR fallout in India.
this would have gone unnoticed by most laymen.

I do not disagree that he praised the MKI.
I stated it for reference on operational issues that the MKi may have been facing..
specifically with the pilot exp and the BISON lineage comments of his.

I hope the analysis is from an expert with pilot hours?

Sorry about flying hours I cannot give you any thing about flying hours.... all I know my self is from various forums, a few friends and a few friends from facebook.... athough I have a Mammo and a far away Chacha in AF they don't tell any thing.

---------- Post added at 10:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 PM ----------

His mistake on the press briefing was not his alone.
It was a local media and DV event at Nellis. Nothing Classified.
he may have taken the fall.
Moreover.. if not for the massive PR fallout in India.
this would have gone unnoticed by most laymen.

I do not disagree that he praised the MKI.
I stated it for reference on operational issues that the MKi may have been facing..
specifically with the pilot exp and the BISON lineage comments of his.

I hope the analysis is from an expert with pilot hours?

Sorry about flying hours I cannot give you any thing about flying hours.... all I know my self is from various forums, a few friends and a few friends from facebook.... athough I have a Mammo and a far away Chacha in AF they don't tell any thing.

 

[Windjammer]

Yes yes.. The video made a little fun of the MKI and we have the defenders coming up with all sorts of canards.
I wonder if I should convey the idea that USAF pilots conduct press briefings drunk to a certain ex-USAF pilot.
Pathetic..

Damn. Now the MKI can give Americans a run for their money.......what hope for PAF or any one else out there.

 

[SQ8]

Sorry about flying hours I cannot give you any thing about flying hours.... all I know my self is from various forums, a few friends and a few friends from facebook.... athough I have a Mammo and a far away Chacha in AF they don't tell any thing.

thankfully.. I do have a little more connections in that regard.

If you wish for a brief comment by a USAF pilot (not chogy) I can arrange that..
I can give you the opinions of two PAF pilots from opposite ends of the spectrum
One was recently a lecturer in AWC(air war college)
the other is a PG pilot..
which ever you prefer..

it will be through me.. so I may only go ahead if you trust me on this.

 

[DARKY]

thankfully.. I do have a little more connections in that regard.

If you wish for a brief comment by a USAF pilot (not chogy) I can arrange that..
I can give you the opinions of two PAF pilots from opposite ends of the spectrum
One was recently a lecturer in AWC(air war college)
the other is a PG pilot..
which ever you prefer..

it will be through me.. so I may only go ahead if you trust me on this.

That would be nice of you.. please go ahead.

 

[SQ8]

That would be nice of you.. please go ahead.

Ok.. will require the usual time... as earlier.

 

[DARKY]

Ok.. will require the usual time... as earlier.

Would wait until then.... Thank you.