The Pilot Factor

[DARKY]

All what can be said for the OP is that there are 100s of such articles from Indian side aswell... which would generally end up being deleted here... PITY.

 

[Storm Force]

NOTRIUS

This line is a massive assumption A higher pilot to aircraft ratio ensures that the aircraft can quickly be refuelled, turned around and launched with a new driver.

Massive because a light easy to maintain fighter from the 3rd generation MAY NOT SURVIVE the high intensity , multiple BVR salvo , advanced jamming threat from a enemy approaching with su30mki , mirage2000 & mig29 as the agressors.

You seem to think that the F7 is going into battle against superior jets FIGHTING AND WINNING and going back for a second time with new pilot.

VERY PRESUMPTIOUS

 

[notorious_eagle]

Will the papas be upgraded or retired ?

Regards,
Sapper

Last i heard they are still in service as the PAF likes to diversify its inventory. It would be interesting to see if the PAF retires them or not as more advanced WVR missiles are coming online.

Dude, i think you misread him....he's querying the "Pappa" version of the AIM-9 AAM.

Thanks for pointing it out

NOTRIUS

This line is a massive assumption A higher pilot to aircraft ratio ensures that the aircraft can quickly be refuelled, turned around and launched with a new driver.

Massive because a light easy to maintain fighter from the 3rd generation MAY NOT SURVIVE the high intensity , multiple BVR salvo , advanced jamming threat from a enemy approaching with su30mki , mirage2000 & mig29 as the agressors.

You seem to think that the F7 is going into battle against superior jets FIGHTING AND WINNING and going back for a second time with new pilot.

VERY PRESUMPTIOUS

Whatever helps you sleep at night .

Another example of Indian arrogance, you failed to read Santro's posts regarding the performance of the F7PG's against the F16's during the High Mark 2010 exercises. It would be unwise to call the F7PG a basic 3rd Generation Aircraft if you look at its capabilities. Its avionics, radar and weapon systems are up there par with 4th Generation Aircrafts. Learn to read and do your research before blabbering out your mouth, sorry if i am coming out as crude but i am yet to see your maturity level increase by even 1% ever since you joined PDF.

 

[Sapper]

No major upgrades or retired, they still have plenty of life left in their airframes so they will continue serving for at least another decade. Besides, PAF is extremely satisfied with its role as a dedicated AD fighter. Non ROSE Mirage's and F7P's will be the first ones to go as they are nearing the end of their lives and their capabilities are very limited compared to that of PG's and ROSE Upgraded Mirage's. There might be minor upgrades but not any major as the bulk of the funding is earmarked for the JF17's and FC20's.

I think you got confused, i was not talking about F7-Papa, rather AIM 9-Papa.

According to my knownledge, PAF also acquired upgrade kits for AIM Lima-Papa, My question is, Will Lima & Papa both be upgraded to Mike, or only Lima upgraded to Mike and Papas retired ?

On your point, I fore see F7PGs forming the bulk of OCC squadrons, and i would specially like if they remain so, and it may even happen that PAF may acuire some more just for their dedicated OCC units, as it will be futile to get rookies straight into Thunders and Vipers for OCC.

Note to all who didnt understand: Lima=L, Papa=P, Mike=M, OCC=Operational Capability Conversion

Regards,
Sapper

 

[DARKY]

A few facts which I would like the Posters from other side to know...

1. The selection procedure to enter armed forces this side is extremely tough... there are common level tests for all three groups in two age groups... 16.5 to 19 years NDA where science students from High school are allowed... and CDS where graduates are allowed(here the ones who give preference to AF or Navy must have Physics as a paper during their graduation course)... age group 19-25 years... both these tests can be easy or hard depending upon your academic abilities.... after this test there is a screening of selected candidates for a direct interaction session with service officers which lasts 7 days atlest.... there are numerous tests taken during that period to test abilities like situational awareness, reaction time, leadership qualities, self control etc.. etc.. which ends up in an extremely tough medical... most of the candidates find themselves out here... and finally after all this they are selected for different groups... based on their performance during all the tests... even If you get selected in the AF group does not mean you become a fighter pilot... it is decided in the Academy.... sometimes questions have been raised on such tough selection procedures which have resulted in serious deficiency in number of officers in armed forces which are in the order of 10 000s.... in spite of a population of over 120 crore... speck of Human factor here you are.

2. The flying hours of IAF aces generally go over 280hr per annum... and for some elite squadron like the ones who flew early Su 30K go as high as 300+ hrs per annum.... 200hr per annum is generally knocked out by regular MKI pilots... not to mention the over 10 hours missions which they usually undertake.... forced to wear astronauts diapers
Hence If 230 hr/annum for USAF is highest then the 300hr/annum for IAF MKI Pilots is even higher.

as for rest please carry on.

 

[Storm Force]

Notrius

F7PG a 4th generation aircraft.

THE HIGH MARK EXCERCISE WAS A WVR DOG FIGHT

I am talking about a BVR engagment. IN CASE YOU ARE AS SLEEP for the last decade " you may have missed the point that IAF is training to fight a BVR war. THIS IS WHY they field over 400 bvr capable fighters.

F7PG cannot fight BVR scenario

F7PG versis a PAF F16 IN 2010 (F16 block a/b) = non bvr engagement

F7PG VERSIS SU30MKI = wvr v BVR

(in 2010 paf had no F16 block 52)

PS.

i have been thanked over 900 times in this forum
from all nationals including pakistanis. SO my maturity may not be so bad.

TAKE YOUR HATE AWAY PLZ

 

[DARKY]

Whatever helps you sleep at night .

A very popular quote among the posters from the other side... used so many many times that it has lost its taste.
Try some ting new..... as for sleep I am sure he can take some sleeping pills to overcome the fear of your Mighty F-7.

Another example of Indian arrogance, you failed to read Santro's posts regarding the performance of the F7PG's against the F16's during the High Mark 2010 exercises. It would be unwise to call the F7PG a basic 3rd Generation Aircraft if you look at its capabilities. Its avionics, radar and weapon systems are up there par with 4th Generation Aircrafts. Learn to read and do your research before blabbering out your mouth, sorry if i am coming out as crude but i am yet to see your maturity level increase by even 1% ever since you joined PDF.

What classifies a fighter aircraft as 4th gen. in its category ??.... even a Bison was able to jam F-15's radars and kill it in WVR...
If it were to go by your way you would make F-7PG a 5th gen... and then a 6th... and so on.... did you research before blabbering did you ??

 

[Sapper]

Thanks for clearing that up Sapper,

I was rather pointing to the holistic development of the PAF by western allies as compared to the IAF that was done by the Soviet side.By that I mean the whole package consisting maintenance of equipment and spares,aerial warfare doctrines,organization and structure of the force from the ground up etc. and not just training modules on fighters.Would you contend that the PAF is still the more "westernized" force amongst the two?

Well, you are correct, the entire setup was done with the help of USAF and RAF as far as the equipment/organization/doctrine/structure goes.

When talking about personnel attitute, it remains the same for PAF, and same for IAF, and same for both armies on the whole. Its the same attitude that was left to us by British Raj Goras that rules us for a century, i.e. Afser shahi and the rest go to hell. I would have liked army and especially PAF to give more training and respect to its lower staff, i.e. technicians and maintainer, the way USAF and RAF gives to theirs nowadays. Same is the case with IAF. Our officers are top brass when it comes to training and capability, infact they are pampered to an unimaginable extent. Lower staff is a whole another ball game, they are still ill-educated, underpaid, maltreated and under trained like in the days of British Raj. Everyone would have liked for PAF and IAF both to have learnt that as well, but they never did.

Well i guess all is not lost, we can still hope for the best. Apart from the Pilots (Officers), IAF and PAF have almost everything similar to each other.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Pfpilot]

Another example of Indian arrogance, you failed to read Santro's posts regarding the performance of the F7PG's against the F16's during the High Mark 2010 exercises. It would be unwise to call the F7PG a basic 3rd Generation Aircraft if you look at its capabilities. Its avionics, radar and weapon systems are up there par with 4th Generation Aircrafts. Learn to read and do your research before blabbering out your mouth, sorry if i am coming out as crude but i am yet to see your maturity level increase by even 1% ever since you joined PDF.

This always seems to be a source of confusion or a safe haven for those that want to underrate the ability of our older fighters. Employing western terminology to label a plane as merely a 3rd or 4th generation platform means nothing to a developing nation. For the Americans it may make sense, as they replace their aircraft with a completely different model after a couple of decades. For the f-22 is a generational leap over the f-15, as such the f-15, itself, was over the f-4.

We don't have that kind of funding, so instead of replacing fighters, we tend to augment them with more recent technological breakthroughs that add to the potency of the aircraft, without an outward change in overall design. The f-7s Pakistan employs are hardly similar to the mig-21s of the Vietnamese airforce, or for that matter the f-7ps of the 90s. Now, under ideal circumstances, would I want an f-7 up against a su-30mki? No, but that doesn't mean they can't hold their own.

PS. It's a courtesy we must extend as well though, because I don't believe older IAF migs will be the walk in the park some of us think.

 

[Sapper]

2. The flying hours of IAF aces generally go over 280hr per annum... and for some elite squadron like the ones who flew early Su 30K go as high as 300+ hrs per annum.... 200hr per annum is generally knocked out by regular MKI pilots... not to mention the over 10 hours missions which they usually undertake.... forced to wear astronauts diapers
Hence If 230 hr/annum for USAF is highest then the 300hr/annum for IAF MKI Pilots is even higher.
as for rest please carry on.

Dear,

Your figures are totally wrong. You have no understanding of airforce do you. Airforces all over log 300+ hours per pilot in training role. All recruits fly ~250+ hr/yr, and their trainers log much more very easily. Now what comes after that is OCU, in which they log around 200+ on jets. Transport/Heli is a whole other ball game so i wont go into that. Sticking only to fighters, 200+ hr/yr on fighter squadron is very good. No doubt about it.

Your figure of 300 for MKI is wrong, but even if I be a sport and agree to your expertise for the sake of argument, half of Su30s pilot hours are GIBS arent they?

That is were the difference lies. PAF has mostly single seats, and logging one hour is purely pilot's own experience. Try matching PAF's 200+ hr/yr solo experience. Besides PAF (as does IAF) maintain a very very detailed record of how much ferry-hours, gibs-hours, currency-hours, etc etc every single pilot logged, and much more, and then you would know the difference between the currency missions flown by a PAF pilot and an InAF pilot. Try to get hold of an InAF pilot and ask him about this and he might tell you details about their currency mission stats and what he might about same of PAF, but i do know that PAF's mission stats are classified, and InAF would be the same. If a friend tells you in confidence, that will be your lucky day.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[SQ8]

USAF had been a great great help till they diverted from GDP philosophy, while PAF/IsraelAF stuck with it. Now everyone wants back in, but they will require too much time and effort, and lots and lots of money to regain back their multi purpose pilot doctrine.

Regards,
Sapper

Is it not true though that during Afg and GW2.. US ANG units usually tasked with Air-def carried out support sorties?
They may not be completely multirole, but their pilots do have the abilities to carry out most tasks.
The exception being the dedicated Air superiority platforms and bombers.
Even in that..it has happened that "strategic" B-52's were performing CAS sorties.
So the USAF is adapting..
But I agree that the JSF has become a white elephant, it was simply impossible to satisfy three services..
They tried it with the F-111 a long time back yet they did not learn their lessons.

I think I gave the USAF credit elsewhere.. they are responsible for inculcating the doctrine of excellence within us.
The RAF gave us excellent flyers.. but we were still very much a flying club till the USAF refined our structure.

 

[Donatello]

A very popular quote among the posters from the other side... used so many many times that it has lost its taste.
Try some ting new..... as for sleep I am sure he can take some sleeping pills to overcome the fear of your Mighty F-7.



What classifies a fighter aircraft as 4th gen. in its category ??.... even a Bison was able to jam F-15's radars and kill it in WVR...
If it were to go by your way you would make F-7PG a 5th gen... and then a 6th... and so on.... did you research before blabbering did you ??

Where did you get this BS?

Provide an evidence.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I think you got confused, i was not talking about F7-Papa, rather AIM 9-Papa.

Yes thanks for clarifying it, i did get confused.

According to my knownledge, PAF also acquired upgrade kits for AIM Lima-Papa, My question is, Will Lima & Papa both be upgraded to Mike, or only Lima upgraded to Mike and Papas retired ?

Yes PAF did acquire the upgrade kits for Lima's as we field these missiles in very high numbers. PAF would like to upgrade the Lima's to Mike standards, but the problem that has arisen is our difficult relationship with the US. This is exactly why the PAF has so far refrained from acquiring additional F16's and AIM9-X's. They have switched to Plan B and are acquiring other platforms to fill in the void that was supposed to be filled by additional F16's. We have the option of upgrading the PG's with newer improved PL5II's and MAA-1B. Lets see what the PAF decides but i would say that there is a very high possibility that PAF will equip the PG's with MAA-1B's.

On your point, I fore see F7PGs forming the bulk of OCC squadrons, and i would specially like if they remain so, and it may even happen that PAF may acuire some more just for their dedicated OCC units, as it will be futile to get rookies straight into Thunders and Vipers for OCC.

Very true, i see that happening in the future too. PAF is also looking to acquire additional modern jet trainers to smooth the conversion onto newer platforms as PAF's inventory in another 5 years will primarily consist of JF17, FC20 and F16's.

 

[Storm Force]

enjoy penumbra.

mig21 bison beat usa f15

Mig-21 " Bison " surprises US F-16 in Cope India 2005 - ED Forums

 

[notorious_eagle]

I am talking about a BVR engagment. IN CASE YOU ARE AS SLEEP for the last decade " you may have missed the point that IAF is training to fight a BVR war. THIS IS WHY they field over 400 bvr capable fighters.

For the IAF to execute its stated doctrine and support IAF's advancing Armoured Columns, she will need to cross the border and engage the PAF 1 on 1 in WVR. Looking at the proximity between both the AF's, most of the battles will be fought in WVR arena. There is simply no way the IAF can accomplish its strategic goals without crossing the border and staying within BVR proximity. The IDAF does possess BVR technology but they still to this day train to fight WVR battles because of the proximity that exists between her adversaries, same is the case with both IAF and PAF. I know what i said might be a bit hard for you to understand but i dumbed it down for you.

F7PG cannot fight BVR scenario

You sure about that Einstein, cause F7PG's were taking BVR shots of up to 50 km during the 2010 HM Exercises.